Dennis, Test set-up is independent of table size. Especially since we prove the table is not part of the equation..
Cheers, Derek. On 10/11/2011 1:20 PM, Dennis Ward wrote: > Yes, and you can get accredited to test only cameras in that configuration > if that is what you do and what you want. > > But the intent of a general scope of accreditation to ANSI C63.4 or C63.10 > (or any standard) is not the anomaly, but the general test configurations > specified in the standard. Consequently, unless you limit your testing > capabilities, going with the expected dimensions is simply easier, faster > and allows all configurations in test setup etc. > > > > Dennis Ward > > Director of Engineering > American Certification Body > Certification Resource for the Wireless Industry http://www.acbcert.com > 703-847-4700 fax 703-847-6888 > direct - 703-880-4841 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:52 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Table Size in Emissions test - Intent > > When confronted with problems like this, I always try to determine the > intent of the particular statement in the test. To me, it is clear that > the intent is to fully support the EUT and associated equipment, with > cables dropping off the edges of the defined area, as needed. The table > should serve this support function and be invisible to RF. > > In the case of a small EUT with no cables, the intent is satisfied with a > table just large enough to support the EUT. Heck, for something like a > digital camera without cables, a threaded plastic rod coming up from the > turntable, screwed into the mounting hole in the bottom of the camera, > would be sufficient to support it and satisfy the intent. > > Of course, getting an auditor to understand the intent, as opposed to a > literal reading, might be difficult to do. > > Donald Borowski > Senior EMC Compliance Engineer > Schweitzer Engineering Labs > Pullman, Washington, USA > > > From: Derek Walton<[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: "'Grace Lin'"<[email protected]>, "'WNya'" > <[email protected]>, "'EMC-PSTC'"<[email protected]> > Date: 10/11/2011 10:12 AM > Subject: Re: Table Size in Emissions test > Sent by: [email protected] > > > > Sorry Dennis, > > you are not correct. Nominal means: > > b : of, being, or relating to a designated or theoretical size that may > vary from the actual. > > This is from Websters. > > As you indicate, there is NOTHING that says it has to be 1 by 1.5m > > I'm sorry to be so anal about this, but it is happening too much where > assessors are assessing to opinions and personal agendas. We must follow > the standard. Usually there are MUCH bigger fish to fry than quibbling > over something like this > > I repeat, again, that there is NOTHING that says the table SHALL be 1 by > 1.5m. Only then could a deficiency be written. > > Sincerely, > > Derek. > > > On 10/11/2011 11:43 AM, Dennis Ward wrote: > Both ANSI C63.10 and ANSI C63.4, the typical standards for which ISO17025 > accreditation is used, contain the following statement, ?Tabletop devices > shall be placed on a nonconducting platform, of nominal size 1 m by 1.5 m, > raised 80 cm above the reference ground plane. > > While a bit more open to variation due to size of equipment, CISPR 22 has > the statement ?Equipment intended for tabletop use shall be placed on a > non-conductive table. The size of the table will nominally be 1,5 m × 1,0 > m but may ultimately be dependent on the horizontal dimensions of EUT. > > So while you may challenge the accreditation organization, they are > correct, your table does not meet the ?nominal? size requirements for at > least the two standards ANSI C63.4 and C6310. > > Other standards may also have the nominal size issue as well. > > Thanks > Dennis Ward > > Director of Engineering > American Certification Body > Certification Resource for the Wireless Industry http://www.acbcert.com > 703-847-4700 fax 703-847-6888 > direct - 703-880-4841 > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Grace Lin > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:16 AM > To: WNya > Cc: EMC-PSTC > Subject: Re: Table Size in Emissions test > > Wendy, > > When I look for an accredited ANSI C63.4 laboratory, I expect the > laboratory has the facility as stated in the standard, including a > standard size of the table as defined in the standard. For this reason, > unless the accreditation certificate bears a restriction note, I support > the auditor's comment. > > > From the other point of view, many manufacturers' laboratories are for > internal use only, including my employer's. For this reason, the auditor > may be willing to accept the smaller size of the table. The question is > how to determine if the laboratory is for internal use only (for testing > certain type of products). An example is Alcatel-Lucent's EMC laboratory > in New Jersey, USA. It opens to the general public. > > With regards, > Grace > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 7:54 PM, WNya<[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Experts, > Recently my company went through the first ISO17025 audit. We have a table > smaller than the standard requirement of 1.5m x 1m since our products are > small, typically 10cm x 10cm x 10cm. The height of our table was 0.8m. The > auditor wanted us to change the table size to follow the standard. > What does it matter since we never use the extra space on the table? I do > agree we must keep to the height requirement since the floor is a ground > plane and thus it sets a fixed capacitance to the EUT and also controls > the lengths of any attached cables. > > Can we reject or challenge the auditor's request? Has anyone experience > the same situation? > > Sent from Wendy.Nya iPhone > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to< > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas<[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell<[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher:<[email protected]> > David Heald:<[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to< > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas<[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell<[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher<[email protected]> > David Heald<[email protected]> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to< > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas<[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell<[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher<[email protected]> > David Heald<[email protected]> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to< > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas<[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell<[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher<[email protected]> > David Heald<[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <[email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas<[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell<[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher:<[email protected]> > David Heald:<[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to<[email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas<[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell<[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher:<[email protected]> > David Heald:<[email protected]> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
