When I worked at an NRTL, a story circulated
(veracity never verified, but useful for hawking
testing services) about a person in Oregon who
purchased a non-approved exercise stroller
appliance from overseas via the Internet. It
subsequently caught fire and burned the house
down.
The story goes that the insurance company found
out all about the source of the fire, and thence
in either its by-laws or state code a prohibition
of non-approved appliances and was able to legally
refuse payment.
Very likely at least partly true. Here in Oregon,
we have a law (electrical code) that states that
all electrical stuff, both building materials and
appliances, must be certified. I don’t know about
the insurance company denying coverage. Many
insurance companies will look for some way to deny
coverage and retain money. My Dad, who was a fire
insurance underwriter, is rolling in his grave.
Rich
From: Brian Gregory
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017
Let's also remember that there are categories of
Listed products at companies like UL, CSA and
Intertek: including 'recognized' and 'approved.'
The difference is out of scope for this
discussion. The proper phrase from a legal
standpoint IMO, should be approved and not
"listed." As such, listed, recognized or
approved, are all "approved" appliances. It's
what I always used.
I'll say that AHJ's aren't often in the position
of inspecting plugged-in units, My experience
suggests that only happens when there's been some
sort of problem, and also the person who has had
an AHJ called on them is likely the type who's too
lazy to unplug things and generally tidy up for an
inspection.
In regards to Mr. Eckert's question:
"whether there has been a problem with products
being released with a Listing mark from a test lab
that does not have NRTL approval"
When I worked at an NRTL, a story circulated
(veracity never verified, but useful for hawking
testing services) about a person in Oregon who
purchased a non-approved exercise stroller
appliance from overseas via the Internet. It
subsequently caught fire and burned the house
down.
The story goes that the insurance company found
out all about the source of the fire, and thence
in either its by-laws or state code a prohibition
of non-approved appliances and was able to legally
refuse payment.
So, that's an example. Another is to research
Home Depot's buyer's guide: I believe they
somewhere say in writing that they'll not sell
non-approved plug-in appliances.
happy weekend all,
Colorado Brian
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Ted Eckert
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:08:54 +0000
I concur with Mr. Perkin’s assessment. The NEC has
used the term “Listed” for quite a while without
specifically connecting it to the NRTL program. It
only had to be a “Listing” acceptable to the local
AHJ, which almost always meant NRTL Listed. I
believe the intent of is to clarify the intent of
current practice.
In regards to Mr. Powell’s comments; the AHJ will
normally sign off before many plug-connected
appliances are installed. Most of the AHJ
inspection will cover appliances attached to
building structure which are largely covered by
the NRTL program. There are installations where
this will be a problem as noted below. However, I
don’t expect most AHJs to know which products are
covered by the NRTL program and which are not. The
AHJ will likely accept an approval mark by a test
lab in the NRTL program even if that test lab
doesn’t have the standard for that product within
the scope of their NRTL registration.
The question I have is whether there has been a
problem with products being released with a
Listing mark from a test lab that does not have
NRTL approval for the standard being certified
when that standard is covered by the NRTL? In
other words, have any AHJs accepted products with
meaningless Listing marks for products covered
under the NRTL program?
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
The opinions expressed are my own and do not
necessarily reflect those of my employer.
From: Doug Powell [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 5:47 AM
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017
I need to read the 2017 edition as well.
Requiring NRTL simply seems wrong, if only because
not all appliance standards are available under
the NRTL program
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards
.html.
I am presently working on certifying a UL 1973
product and will have to settle for the agency
monogram but no NRTL. I am certain there are many
more product types like this.
In addition, the first 1/4th of that listing of
standards are not UL standards at all. It would
seem that if OSHA is able to understand this
nuance, then NFPA and AHJs should be able to
understand this as well.
All the best, Doug
Douglas E Powell
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
From: Pete Perkins
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:46 PM
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Reply To: Pete Perkins
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEC 2017
Dave, et al,.
This is not a new requirement for the NEC.
In the past the NEC required that all equipment be
Labeled [Art 100 definition] by an organization
acceptable to the AHJ indicating compliance with
appropriate standards ... The Handbook
explanation also adds a reference to Art 90.7
which is an examination of equipment for safety.
I haven't read the 2017 NEC but you claim
that NRTL has been added. If so, I'm not
surprised as this is just a clarification to what
has been understood for years.
As has been discussed before, Americans
are quick to promulgate rules but reluctant to
spend anything on enforcement. OSHA invokes the
NRTL cert requirement for equipment used in the
workplace. Other enforcement is mixed; much
enforcement is primarily left to the legal system
in that any manufacturer that has a serious
problem with a product that causes harm will have
to hang their head in shame and admit that the
product doesn't even meet the minimum safety
requirements for that class of products. Under
the present conditions it seems that the
manufacturer would end up paying maybe U$ 2Million
if someone dies from the product deficiency. At
what level does this become an incentive to the
manufacturer to get the product NRTL approved? If
you have a number in mind I bet that the ambulance
chasing lawyers would like to use it in their
claims for damage.
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs
Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
-----Original Message-----
From: Nyffenegger, Dave
[mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 2:55 PM
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [PSES] NEC 2017
The 2017 NEC will require all appliances to be
NRTL listed. I wonder how that will be enforced?
Individual states adopt the NEC into law. I
don't know what the actual state statutes look
like for the current NEC, I imagine specific
statutes would need to be written to deal with
this new requirement, assuming the states adopt
it. Doesn't make sense to enforce that on the
consumer/owner on the manner that OSHA enforces
workplace compliance on the workplace owner.
Appliances present during a AHJ inspection could
be checked but that would be a very small
percentage of appliances. The requirement would
have to be put on the in-state retailers which
probably couldn't be enforced on out of state
shippers the same way that collecting sales tax
from out of state shippers is challenged.
Perhaps it could be made to apply to manufacturers
within the state. Perhaps it can be enforced at
the federal level for imports that have to clear
customs.
-Dave
-
--------------------------------------------------
--------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To
post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online Communities site at
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/>
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used
for graphics (in well-used formats), large files,
etc.
Website: <http://www.ieee-pses.org/>
http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how
to unsubscribe) List rules:
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html>
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas < <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected]>
Mike Cantwell < <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected]>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: < <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected]>
David Heald: < <mailto:[email protected]>
[email protected]>
-
--------------------------------------------------
--------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To
post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used
for graphics (in well-used formats), large files,
etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
(including how to unsubscribe)
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
-
--------------------------------------------------
--------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To
post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used
for graphics (in well-used formats), large files,
etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
(including how to unsubscribe)
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
-
--------------------------------------------------
--------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To
post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used
for graphics (in well-used formats), large files,
etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
(including how to unsubscribe)
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
-
--------------------------------------------------
--------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To
post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used
for graphics (in well-used formats), large files,
etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
(including how to unsubscribe)
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Mike Cantwell <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
David Heald <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
<[email protected]>
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <[email protected]>
Mike Cantwell <[email protected]>
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: <[email protected]>
David Heald: <[email protected]>
