John, You bring up a good point, in that we see rural properties in North America where a single farm is fed with it’s own transformer from an MV line at say 4.8 kV to LV, and that farm is the only load on the the transformer. Is that an RCLI situation? IMO yes, because the family lives there (meets the domestic establishments criteria) and it also meets your criteria of radio/tv receivers within 30 m. They may employ equipment in their operation that might reasonably be considered industrial in nature due to scale.
Can you tell me, what is origin for the 30 m tv/radio criteria you have mentioned on several occasions? Is there a specific document? I have to say that I don’t believe that you can lump everything that is supplied at LV into RCLI, because that position is inconsistent with the class definitions in EN 55011, which makes the criterion the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. Doug Nix [email protected] +1 (519) 729-5704 > On 19-Oct-16, at 12:23, John Woodgate <[email protected]> wrote: > > 1. Yes. > > 2. > Original statement is true only if the substation output is at MV or higher. > If it is at LV, the location is strictly RCLI (residential, commercial and > light industrial). > > a) In most countries in Europe, yes, but in France there are some separate > industrial LV networks. You have to look at the location and decide whether > there are likely to be broadcast radio or TV receivers within 30 m. If so, > it's RCLI. > > b) Yes. > > There is no way to categorize. I know of a single dwelling house with its own > LV transformer. They are not very rare in rural parts. > > But please bear in mind that it's the *user* who decides where to use a > product and the manufacturer has no control. Obviously, the most flexible > solution is the most costly, Class B emissions and Class A immunity. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and > Associates Rayleigh England > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 3:35 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial > for EMC testing purposes > > Doug- Thanks very much for this. > > Within this group, I often get responses before the initial email, so I > missed this one the first time through. Two questions: > > 1. Is it safe to say that the same definitions hold true for immunity as > well? > 2. Would the following statements be true as well? > Original Statement: If a location is fed from its own substation and there > are no dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, > and therefore Class A. > a. If a location is not fed from its own substation, but there are no > dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and > therefore Class B. > b. If a location is fed from its own substation and there are dwellings > supplied from that substation, it’s not an industrial location, and therefore > Class B. > > Without knowing the details of every installation, is there a relatively > simple way of categorizing types of buildings that would be fed by its own > substation, for example? > > > Thanks, > > Jamison > > From: Doug Nix [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 11:25 AM > To: Kortas, Jamison <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: IEEE EMC PSTC <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial > for EMC testing purposes > > My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in > CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition): > >> 5.3 Division into classes >> Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other >> than domestic and >> those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which >> supplies buildings used >> for domestic purposes. >> >> Class A equipment shall meet class A limits. >> >> Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. >> In the >> documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention >> to the fact that >> there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic >> compatibility in other >> environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances. >> >> Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments >> and in >> establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network >> which supplies >> buildings used for domestic purposes. >> >> Class B equipment shall meet class B limits. > > The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If > the equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic > establishments, then it must meet Class B requirements IMO. > > If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the > power supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then > Class A performance is acceptable. > > The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic > establishments. If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no > dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and > therefore Class A. > > Doug Nix > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > +1 (519) 729-5704 > >> On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Good Morning, >> >> What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in >> which a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or >> non-industrial? I have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to >> use. >> >> It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other >> products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = >> industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment). >> >> I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure >> that those are what are typically followed in practice. >> >> I appreciate any thoughts. >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. 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