Taking John W’s point about the “real difference” between Europe and the Americas, one additional and practical issue should be remembered: in the former region the residential and “industrial” locations (in the broadest sense of the word) are often much more closely co-sited than in the latter. Therefore the likelihood of interference to equipment in residential premises is potentially much higher than in the latter.
On the point about the lack of a requirement for Warning notices to European customers of Class A equipment, I not at all sure it would make much real difference if these were required because most customers would not have any idea of what the potential consequences to adjacent Class B equipment could be – if most of them ever even read them. It is only likely to be “high end” purchasers of equipment for large developments who (hopefully!) realise their obligations under the EMCD to ensure compliance for the complete installation equipment on and adjacent to their properties because, again, most SME’s have little real concept of EMC/EMI issues and potential problems. Even when they do, it is probably only when they, or their neighbours, experience EMI/EMC issues after the equipment is brought into service, and they rarely then know what to do about it. Again, IMHO, the solution lies with the suppliers to “risk assess” where their equipment is likely to be located and then to ensure that they provide products which have the appropriate EMC characteristics for such locations. John E Allen W.London, UK From: John Woodgate [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 19 October 2016 08:05 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes I'm not unsure. Class A is for heavy industry, powered from MV or higher, with no broadcast receivers likely within 30 m. The real difference between Europe and the Americas is that in Europe, there is a vain attempt to prohibit the use of Class A devices out of industrial areas, whereas in the Americas it is recognized that this can (fairly rarely) occur and requires the *user* to be warned accordingly. The attempt to prohibit is vain because the *user* is not addressed by the legislation, and unless actual interference occurs, the transgression passes unnoticed. The 'prohibition' also results in no requirement for warning notices to the user – a 'shot in foot' result. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Kortas, Jamison [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 8:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes Thanks all – at least I am not the only one unsure. I am trying to establish a set of criteria that I can ask our engineers and marketers that will determine the classification. A decision tree, if you will. This arose from a device that met the less stringent criteria, but not the more stringent and then what to do. To prevent the need to debate this topic over and over, I was hoping to establish a go forward approach. Ideally, that approach would be “design for both industrial AND non-industrial and be done with it.” However, other factors are at play than just my druthers. -Jamison From: John Woodgate [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 12:44 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes For Europe, the sources are the Generic standards, which are substantially consistent with CISPR 11. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.jmwa.demon.co.uk_&d=DQMFaQ&c=clRTYxLjfWTYQkksq4Trqw&r=SuXR4v_cWDGps50Ob7OgG3eGvjdtolb5h84QBM8NxmY&m=YBc-OAqaIXpaBu7LDEilUSP7k5HwjSK9Dpuedr-cf0o&s=Tw7R0rvcEmoCGo36ftzkzv1jvoR_Bk-evzNbxvU8NuM&e=> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Doug Nix [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 5:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] Criteria for determining industrial vs. non-industrial for EMC testing purposes My understanding has always been based on the Class and Group designations in CISPR 11 / EN 55011 for ISM equipment (based on the 2009 edition): 5.3 Division into classes Class A equipment is equipment suitable for use in all establishments other than domestic and those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies buildings used for domestic purposes. Class A equipment shall meet class A limits. Warning: Class A equipment is intended for use in an industrial environment. In the documentation for the user, a statement shall be included drawing attention to the fact that there may be potential difficulties in ensuring electromagnetic compatibility in other environments, due to conducted as well as radiated disturbances. Class B equipment is equipment suitable for use in domestic establishments and in establishments directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies buildings used for domestic purposes. Class B equipment shall meet class B limits. The key in all of this is the source of power supply for the equipment. If the equipment is supplied from mains that are shared with domestic establishments, then it must meet Class B requirements IMO. If the equipment is intended for industrial use, i.e., Class A, where the power supply from the mains is not shared with domestic establishments, then Class A performance is acceptable. The deciding factor is the sharing of the supply with domestic establishments. If a location is fed from its own substation and there are no dwellings supplied from that substation, it’s an industrial location, and therefore Class A. Doug Nix [email protected] +1 (519) 729-5704 On 18-Oct-16, at 08:44, Kortas, Jamison <[email protected]> wrote: Good Morning, What do you use for criteria when reviewing the intended environment in which a device will be placed to determine if it is industrial or non-industrial? I have seen and read varying opinions on what criteria to use. It ranges from a transformer isolated factory to the nature of the other products in the immediate vicinity (a mechanical room in a grocery store = industrial due to the equipment in its immediate environment). I am familiar with some of the definitions in places, but am not so sure that those are what are typically followed in practice. I appreciate any thoughts. Thank you. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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