John, Interesting that I am in the USA and having cut my compliance teeth on the IECEE TRF format, I actually prefer it to other file formats such as those used by UL and others where there is a strong reliance on vbScript to ensure a report is fully carried out.
Of course the idea that a safety lab engineer is any better at this is not necessarily true either. I've had opportunity to review the work of many and often find errors and omissions. I think the prevailing idea for generating these IEC report forms is to diagram each phrase found in the standard and break it out into individual performance-based requirements (*e.g. sections 6 to 17 of 61010-1*). Ostensibly there is less room for error but often the reverse is true. The effect I have found is one of two things happen. The task is so mind numbing that parts are often missed (*argument for scripting*), or there is a strong tendency to use boiler-plate language or copy phrases from previous clauses or other reports. I have tracked misspelled words or badly phrased comments which seem to carry over to other safety reports. The IEC 61010-1J blank report form I have (*by VDE 2013-11*) is 78 pages. After it is filled out, depending on the product type, it can easily double in number of pages. This is one metric I use for estimating the difficulty (*and cost*) of filling out the report on a particular product. Best, Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA [email protected] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 1:45 PM, John Woodgate <[email protected]> wrote: > Good, but you need the slogan, so people remember. 'Compliance 101' is > neutral and boring. It could be DESIGN IT IN! but maybe someone can > produce a better one. > > > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > > > *From:* John Allen [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:34 PM > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? > > > > This is what the Compliance 101 Track is all about!! Learn more about it > and/or how to help at IEEE PSES Symposium - http://2017.psessymposium.org/ > > > > IEEE is also reaching out to corporations worldwide. Any support and/or > promotion we can get would be great. > > > > As Acting President of IEEE's PSES, I'd be happy to talk to any > corporation, free of charge about how we can help make Certifications > easier and more cost effective. > > Best Regards, > > > > John > > > > John Allen | President > > Product Safety Consulting, Inc. > > Your Outsourced Compliance Department > > www.productsafetyinc.com > > 630-238-0188 <(630)%20238-0188> > > > On Feb 1, 2017, at 2:24 PM, John Woodgate <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes, this is DESIGN IT IN!, and I think everyone here thinks it's the > right way to go. But we need to spread the word to CEOs and line managers > because, like everything else, it needs setting up, as JA explains below. > > > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > > > *From:* John Allen [mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]>] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 1, 2017 8:07 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? > > > > I think (from *bitter *experience over many years!) that one of the > biggest problems that the “do it yourself” safety compliance report company > encounters is that most people who do that first then try to use the IEC > Test Report Forms (TRF), but find that the format and content of those, *and > what appears to be missing, *are fairly incomprehensible to the average > development (as opposed to safety test lab) engineer – especially when he > tries to match that format up with what is written in the relevant > standard(s), because they basically don’t match very well in many areas. > > > > Met this issue at a number of companies, and so had to virtually dissect > the relevant standards (an old version of 60950 and the 3rd edition of > 61010-1 in my case, plus bits of a few others) to “reduce” them to logical > sequences of questions that the non-test lab engineers could follow and > “answer”. The nett result was long tabulated lists of questions with simple > possible answers of “Not applicable”, Complies” or “Unknown at present” – > and in each case some supporting evidence was either needed, or then needed > to be found (e.g. test data such as temperature rises and so on) and > sometimes demanded use of test equipment which they didn’t have or couldn’t > get, or was going to cost a lot of time and money to get.. > > > > Development engineers don’t like that because it takes a lot of time and > (often boring to them) work to understand & answer the questions and to > establish the data, and their managers don’t like it because it generally > takes a lot more time and money than they originally budgeted for. > > > > Been there, seen/experienced all that! > > > > OTOH, when these compliance exercises are successfully (or otherwise!) > completed, then both the engineers and their managers know a lot more about > the standards and how to make their next products meet them – *and* how > to avoid making the same mistakes in the future! > > > > John E Allen > > W. London, UK > > > > *From:* Dan Roman [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] > *Sent:* 01 February 2017 11:48 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? > > > > No need to limit yourself to 60950 either. Specifically for battery > operated equipment, you can use a standard like 60335 that has requirements > for battery operated appliances. From the Annex use the testing and > construction and user instructions from that standard. > > > > -- > > Dan Roman > > IEEE Senior Member > > PSES/EMCS/CES > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen" <[email protected]> > > Date: 2/1/17 4:22 AM (GMT-05:00) > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? > > I agree with John, batteries are the most critical part. Make sure > they are properly approved, and use a fuse in their leads. > > As it's an RF product, I suppose the LVD comes into play by > means of the RTTE (RED) directive. > So a full qualification is needed. > Many aspects do not apply, but the remaining > applicable chapters need evaluation. > That requires evaluation of the battery, and possibly fire and heat hazards > if the power exceeds "limited power levels". (antenna voltage > 50 ?) > Documentation, marking and labelling > and a proper definition (intended use) is needed. Installation > and safety documentation might be needed. > If the battery is chargeable and a power supply is included it needs > verification of its documentation and needs reinforced insulation, > both mechanically and electrically, as the secondary "live parts" are > rarely earthed in these type > of equipment's and often must be be classified as accessible parts. > Plastics need may not propagate fire, and should have the right V Class. > > More aspects can be applicable..... > > making your own test report is possible, but I doubt if it will stand up > against examination, unless you have done this before... > > > > Regards, > > Ing. Gert Gremmen > Approvals manager > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------ > > > + ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment > + Independent Consultancy Services > + Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking according to EC-directives: > - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2014/30/EC > - Electrical Safety 2014/35/EC > - Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC > > Web: www.cetest.nl (English) www.ce-test.nl (Dutch) www.cetest.fr > (under construction) > Phone : +31 10 415 24 26 > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > This e-mail and any attachments thereto may contain information > that is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights > and are intended for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. > Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not > limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or > distribution in any form) by persons other than the designated > recipient(s) is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > please notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and > delete the material from any computer. > Thank you for your co-operation. > > From: John Woodgate [mailto:[email protected] > <[email protected]>] > Sent: Wednesday 1 February 2017 09:28 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? > > If it's battery-powered, the LVD may not apply, so in turn there is no > need to apply 60950. But I would advise applying it as far as possible. We > don't want more battery fires, so that is one point to look at carefully; > can the battery be short-circuited by a fault and if so, what happens? It's > certainly possible to do that without a test house, but of course, it has > to be done carefully. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > From: Curtis McNamara [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 11:29 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PSES] Do it yourself safety reports? > > A client is asking if it is practical to do their own 60950 safety reports > for CE. > The device is battery powered, low power RF (they would have complete EMC > testing done at a lab). > Thanks in advance for your suggestions. > Thanks for all the great past advice! > Curt > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> > David Heald: <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > [email protected]> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <[email protected]> > David Heald <[email protected]> > -- Douglas E Powell [email protected] http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
