Yes, the principles can be taught, but not the safety issues. I would certainly allow exposure to sources that can give a 'memorable experience' without being actually dangerous.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-11-09 21:14, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
A very nice clarification; thanks Rich.

As a case in point, I know of a least one high school in this jurisdiction 
where students (instructed persons) are allowed to assemble and test circuits 
consisting of magnitude 3 energy sources.  I wonder if the school board needs 
to review that practice, since the principles of electric circuits can be 
taught just as effectively using magnitude 1 energy sources.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2017 1:04 PM
To: Ralph McDiarmid <ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: "persons" in IEC 62368-1


In IEC 62368-1, three different persons are defined with respect to their 
knowledge of safety, not with respect to other parameters.

An "ordinary person" is naïve with regard to the safety of the equipment.  Therefore, an 
"ordinary person" must have the full protections specified in the standard.  "Ordinary 
person" is defined in the IEC Glossary,

http://std.iec.ch/terms/terms.nsf/3385f156e728849bc1256e8c00278ad2/e6936aca232ebc83c1257cac004ac0a7?OpenDocument

A "skilled person" is an expert with regard to the safety of the equipment.  He is "expected to use their training 
and experience to recognize energy sources capable of causing pain or injury and to take action for protection from injury from 
those energies."  None of the protections specified in the standard are applicable to a "skilled person."  He can 
work on the equipment with the covers off.   Ralph worked on TVs with the covers off and was able to avoid injury because of his 
knowledge of the energy sources, so, with respect to TV safety, he was a "skilled person."  "Skilled person" 
is also defined in the IEC Glossary.

An "instructed person" is just that.  He must be instructed as to energy sources that could cause 
pain and the precautions he must use to avoid the pain.  And, he cannot be exposed to energy sources that 
could cause injury.  Instruction must be by someone who knows the energy sources in the specific equipment 
and knows the precautionary measures that must be taken to avoid pain, which means that the instruction must 
be by a "skilled person."  "Instructed person" is defined in the IEC Glossary.

Associated with the person definitions, IEC 62368-1 defines three magnitudes of energy.  
Magnitude 1 may be detectable, but not likely to cause pain or injury.  An "ordinary 
person" may have exposure to magnitude 1 energy sources, e.g., low voltage.

Magnitude 2 may cause pain, but not likely to cause injury.  An "instructed 
person" may (is allowed to) have exposure to magnitude 2 energy sources.

Magnitude 3 may cause injury.   A "skilled person" may have exposure to 
magnitude 3 energy sources, e.g., mains voltages.

Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on 
AC mains ports?

IEC 63386-1 seems to introduce a lot of new terms I have not seen used in other IEC standards.  ( 
but I haven't read everything out there) I would add that a "skilled person" perhaps is a 
"qualified person" , but qualification is often associated with formal training by an 
accredited institute, not just on-the-job experience.  I have fixed a few TVs in my time, but I 
wouldn't say I was qualified; skilled maybe.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric

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