“current limit of 30mA protects 95 % of the population” They didn’t want to try for 100% ? I'm no expert and I don't know if we have one on this forum for this complex topic, but ask how can one limit be 5X the other and still afford the same level of protection? Perhaps not intended to, as in shock versus electrocution protection.
Is 6mA enough for strong muscle reaction or a startle reaction sufficient to cause someone to loose balance for instance? Still, some protection better than none at all. Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Specialist Solar Business Schneider Electric From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 10:06 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE discussion Brian, et al Low current protection devices are intended to protect people. The long term letgo-immobilization current of 5mA covers the full population and opens any circuit which exceeds this level (ok, the UL limit for GFCIs is 4mA to 6 mA), But you get the idea. The long term Ventricular Fibrillation current limit of 30mA protects 95 % of the population on the face of the earth. The Euro systems use of RCDs require this protection in many installations (but I’m not familiar with the installation code details). Here in the US we are developing protection devices that will work at 15 mA and 25 mA. These are intended for use with charging electric vehicles. The 15 mA device will be used in residential installations and the 25 mA device will be used in commercial installations (haven’t followed the code development but believe that this is how it is going). All of these devices have been designed for sinusoidal AC systems and they all have false tripping issues when used with equipment with line switching. SMPS and VSD units are a problem today in that they trip a small number of protection devices; their use is spreading into many more types of products. From my perspective the units each have a statistical range of protection or operation and they seem to overlap a small percentage of the time; this gives rise to ‘nuisance tripping’ (meaning undiagnosed tripping). This is an issue both in North America (GFCI & AFCI country) as well as the EuroZone (RCD devices). I worked with a student project last year which published a paper for the 2017 IEEE PSES ISPCE Symposium; Yuen et al, ‘Why do GFCIs keep tripping’. This paper show that some GFCIs can be tricked into operating when they shouldn’t. The non-sinusoidal nature of the earth/ground current as well as the CM/DM signals have not been fully understood nor taken care of in a harmonized way between the protection device and the load. Lot’s of opportunity here for investigation and recommendation of mitigation techniques. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 IEEE Life Fellow mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:04 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] GFCI vs GFPE I’ve recently come to understand that the 30mA Ground-Fault protectors, often built into a circuit breaker, is intended to protect the Protective Earth (Safety Ground) circuit in the case of a short circuit (opening the circuit before the safety ground could be damaged. It this correct? Here is my question. I’m evaluating a cut-off saw (5hp) which uses water to keep the blade and material cool. The manufacturer uses a 3-phase supplementary circuit breaker which includes the 30mA GFPE option. This is a very expensive part. When I asked them why they use the GFPE part, they couldn’t give me a good answer. Would such a part be required on a 3-phase motor driven cutoff saw in either North America or Europe? What standard would dictate this? If the only purpose of a GFPE is to protect the Ground Circuit, on products that can handle shorts without damaging the ground circuit, would a GFPE still be necessary? Where are GFPE typically used? What industry? Please educate me. This is a new one on me. Thanks, Brian From: Doug Nix [mailto:d...@ieee.org] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 2:48 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] JOB POSTING - ONTARIO, CANADA PLEASE CONTACT TED TYCZKA DIRECTLY A very notable, “high-profile” client who is seeking a Safety & Services Sales/Business Development Professional - to join their Machine Services Division - the focus of the role is to spearhead/lead the sale of Engineering Services related to “functional safety.” The company sells safety training (workshops), machine assessment/audits, engineering design per CSA and/or TUV Safety requirements (“Regulatory Compliance”). The company also sells Remediation and Repair Services (of industrial machines) together with Service Contracts ... to customers in the aerospace, automotive, forestry, food & beverage, as well as, the packaging sectors. The Safety & Services/Business Development Professional can work from a home office - anywhere in Ontario. A Bachelor of Science in Mechanical or Electrical Engineering, together with the sale of Machine Safeguard devices and the application of these, would be desired ... together, with some exposure to Industrial Automation and perhaps Robotics. The key is to have some knowledge of safety components, safety scanners, switches, controllers, etc. as well as machine building experience. The employer (a very reputable, Global entity/brand) ... who provide a very competitive base salary, lucrative annual bonus/incentive program vs. results, plus monthly car allowance, Benefits, Matching RRSP + (Training, Career Opportunities and upward mobility). They are good people, seek an ambitious self-starter who can cover sales from the “shop floor” level to the “C Suite” (Boardroom). The company have established Sales Reps across Canada ... who can work with the Safety & Services Sales Specialist ... this role requires “consultative and solutions oriented selling ability. I will ensure absolute confidentiality. Nice opportunity with a great organization and strong, capable leadership. Thanks. Kind professional regards, Ted Tyczka President Golden Mile Management – Consulting Services 2630 Eglinton Avenue East, Toronto, Ontario M1K 2S3 Tel: (416) 266 - 4434 Email: mailto:t...@gmmcs.com Website: http://www.gmmcs.com/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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