Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

[Pete Perkins]

James,

 

               As an American I’m not privy to the inner workings of making the 
sausage called EU Directives.  However, there is a political process involved 
an all of this work and I’m sure that manufacturers and political regulators 
pushed back and forth to get to the final result for the update to the LVD.  I 
agree with your assessment that companies don’t want the extra cost of type 
approval and have prevailed at this point for this set of circumstances.  

 

               Somewhat related comment; since your keyboard is USB powered you 
need to understand that USB, like POE, is going to higher power delivery – 100W 
coming for USB3.  There are additional issues that need to be addressed and IEC 
62368-3 addresses power over communication cables no matter what the product 
type is; products using such comm cables will need to be assessed to ensure 
that they provide the proper protection coming and going when attached to these 
common outlet sockets.  Again, NRTL certification is appropriate for evaluating 
this equipment.  

 

               Finally, yes, these NRTL certifications are on a product by 
product basis; you can bunch similar models into one certification report tho.  
From experience, the FUS unit cost decreases as there is more product produced. 
 Increasing the volume of either a product model or adding more similar models 
will drive down the unit cost as the inspection time is spread over more models 
and units.  For instance for your 1K dollars/Euros or whatever, if the factory 
only produces a single unit per inspection quarter then that unit eats the 
entire cost; if the factory produces 10K units per inspection quarter then the 
unit cost is quite cheap.  

 

:>)     br,      Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: James Pawson (U3C) <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 1:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

 

Hi all,

 

Thanks very much for the illuminating replies, it’s a great help. To summarise 
(and to make sure I’ve understood):

 

*       NRTL approval legally required for selling in the USA? No.
*       NRTL / UL approval expected? Highly likely.
*       NRTL approval required for use in the workplace? Yes, not legally 
required but market expectation? Or is it a legal requirement?
*       Standard used: UL 62368-1

 

@Pete Perkins: are you saying when the LVD was recast that they tried to remove 
the lower voltage limit? Presumably this didn’t happen because companies didn’t 
want the extra workload involved with extra testing / assessment?

 

Having looked at EN 62368-1, there’s not a great deal in there that applies to 
a low power device such as a USB powered keyboard so I think it’s fair to say 
that the type approval wouldn’t take a great deal of time / cost.

 

Reading http://www.productapprovals.co.uk/ul-approval.html there appear to be 
initial and regular factory inspections associated with a NRTL listing, with 
the figure of a few thousand dollars being quoted as a typical fee for 
maintaining an NRTL mark. Does this match people’s experience?

 

If the factory already has NRTL approval for manufacturing another product, 
could one piggyback onto this approval or is it on a per product basis?

 

Thanks again

James

 

 

 

 

 

From: Pete Perkins <00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org 
<mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > 
Sent: 19 June 2018 00:27
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

 

Dave, et al,

 

               I think that you are simplifying the discussion too much.  
Certainly a wall-wart with an ELV output is not an electric shock hazard but 
that is no guarantee that any NRTL wall-wart power supply will not start a fire 
in any device which it powers; that can only be determined by inspection and 
testing.  

 

James, is your keyboard wireless?  

 

               The EU has long had an ELV exclusion for equipment under the 
LVD.  But, because of the issue raised here, there was an effort to remove that 
in the last update to the LVD which, unfortunately, failed.  So a partial fix 
is that if a device has a radio in it must meet the Radio Equipment Directive 
and that RED Directive encompasses all of the hazards such that the electrical 
safety standards used under the LVD now apply except that the ELV exclusion is 
eliminated; a step in the right direction, I believe.  (So the LVD is not 
invoked of itself when meeting the RED directive but the appropriate safety 
standard is.)  

               Now it is obvious why Rich Nute’s Bluetooth mouse bears 
appropriate safety marks.  

 

:>)     br,      Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave <dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com 
<mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com> > 
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 1:15 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

 

This is generally true however there are plenty of examples of products for 
sale as well as those used in the workplace that are simple in nature and/or 
non-hazardous and do not carry an NRTL mark.  For example, the stapler on your 
desk or even the phone on your desk.  If it plugs into a power outlet in the 
wall it needs NRTL.  A computer keyboard could have one but is it really 
needed?  The main reason a lot of OEMs use wall warts is they NRTL certify the 
wall wart (or more likely source one from another OEM) but not the product that 
it supplies power to as it doesn’t need it.

 

-Dave

 

From: Monrad Monsen [mailto:monrad.mon...@oracle.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 12:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

 

Hi James, 

Please note that the OSHA Nationally Recognized Test Laboratory (NRTL) will 
verify your product to UL62368-1 standard (based on international IEC62368-1). 
The OSHA regulation mandates that employers provide a safe working environment 
for employees (and local building codes support those requirements) plus retail 
stores don’t want to be sued for selling unsafe products if someone is harmed 
or property damaged, so neither employers nor retail stores will buy or re-sell 
a product that does not have a NRTL approval. As Darren notes, NRTL labs are 
not just UL but also CSA, TUV Rheinland, TUV Sud, ETL (Intertek), Nemko, etc. A 
full listing is at the web page below:

https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

 

Hope this helps.

Monrad 

 

Sent from my iPhone


On Jun 18, 2018, at 3:03 AM, CATHERINE PEARSON 
<00000b0df63784fb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org 
<mailto:00000b0df63784fb-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > wrote:

Hi James,

 

Is UL listing mandatory for IT accessories like keyboards? 
No any NRTL certification will be sufficient, but that may not be the question 
or answer !

 

Depending where you are selling the equipment, they may expect a certain 
certification mark, 
Ive gotten many approvals for the USA market  but its the customer who needs to 
understand the requirements. 

I had explained to my customer that they can have any suitable certification 
mark and it will meet the requirements, TUV, CSA, UL etc 
However once they were selling the device, there customer would ask "Wheres the 
UL mark" 
there customer was not technical and didn't understand or care to understand 
there were alternatives, just "Wheres the UL mark" 

Ive also found this with the building inspectors who should know better ! 

 

So for that job, nothing but UL would do. 
In answer to "some retailers use it as a minimum requirement for stocking your 
products"
Yes thats correct and you dont have much chance in convincing them to do 
anything else. 
I've been discussing this with the alternative approval bodies for a while, 
that they need to improve the general public view of them so more people 
understand that UL are only one of a number of options. 

 

Ive worked with many approval bodies, some better than others, some not, 
but as a general rule, avoid the customer service agents and deal straight with 
the engineer at the testing lab and the person whos dealing with the approval.  

 

I have to mention my current experience with UL is very good, but then ive 
found myself a number of responsive people who reply to your Emails and are 
happy to discuss the project with you.


10 years ago, it was a lot different ! 

 

Regards Darren. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Monday, 18 June 2018, 9:40, James Pawson (U3C) <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 
<mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> > wrote:

 

Hi folks,

 

Working with a client at the moment on a computer keyboard (hence the earlier 
question). I’m trying to get a handle on the applicability of UL listing and 
could do with some help.

 

Is UL listing mandatory for IT accessories like keyboards? My searching so far 
suggests that the answer is “no”. However, I’ve read that some retailers use it 
as a minimum requirement for stocking your products – does anyone have any 
experience or knowledge of this?

 

Assuming that UL listing was required (for whatever reason, OHSA?) presumably 
an analysis against IEC 62368-1 would be sufficient or are there other 
tests/requirements?

 

If anyone has a link to any docs with more information I’d like to do some more 
reading up.

 

Thanks in advance

James

 

 

 

 

 

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=K86KMprMkbphA5kyRQLT1Vo_babz413uEwQ4Fi6lMsw&e=>
 

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=XJ5kvRHyvXfQ1kz4TtM5R-OTBzcY8bqJ2vn3Ar0uteI&e=>
  can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=3LWqTehcVHRkoIP9RnLhH3PMzfc9kS1biKxbJq0LCv8&e=>
 
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=G-QgBDilFCMvwLCvHZS8G-8RJZNhuqHGIkTfmm7lBdw&e=>
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=1HIKpHr_MJZs1nhTKngOYKRwnhb0YFfFgYcYcHPTWes&e=>
  

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

 

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_emc-2Dpstc.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=K86KMprMkbphA5kyRQLT1Vo_babz413uEwQ4Fi6lMsw&e=>
 

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__product-2Dcompliance.oc.ieee.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=XJ5kvRHyvXfQ1kz4TtM5R-OTBzcY8bqJ2vn3Ar0uteI&e=>
  can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=3LWqTehcVHRkoIP9RnLhH3PMzfc9kS1biKxbJq0LCv8&e=>
 
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_list.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=G-QgBDilFCMvwLCvHZS8G-8RJZNhuqHGIkTfmm7lBdw&e=>
 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ieee-2Dpses.org_listrules.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=bdhQMzFxnmYEOUrCJpiaOszYW-e590kX_eWuZIISyNU&m=Z5flFx27FjfcBamtvZYcgOBNAdsqWj8Zn2RSr2e6sCk&s=1HIKpHr_MJZs1nhTKngOYKRwnhb0YFfFgYcYcHPTWes&e=>
  

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 

-
----------------------------------------------------------------

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 
<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> 
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> >
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> >
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


-
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  <j.bac...@ieee.org>
David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>