For RE, the single biggest improvement for schedule is to use a time domain or 
FFT EMI receiver.  Basically that is 1 second for each multi-MHz sweep.  If 
your platform has a limited number of microwave uplinks, the entire RE test 
will take a few seconds. A log-spiral eliminates the need for dual polarization 
measurements, but the time savings will all be in the changeover, not the 
actual reduced number of sweeps.

 

Also, no RE test outside receiver bands. At low frequencies (10/150 kHz to say 
200 MHz) control cable common mode currents to control crosstalk. This is 
paired with a BCI-type requirement like a tailored CS114.  Cables that meet the 
BCE (bulk cable emissions) and BCI requirement may be laid side-by-side with no 
concern for separation.

 

RS is where time savings need to be found.  No RS outside of transmitter bands. 
 You need to account for off-platform transmitters if your platform is 
operational when such might be in operation.  But only those 
equipments/subsystems that would be active at those times.  

 

Log-spirals are a must in this situation.  They will cut test time in half.  
And that is significant for RS.  They are available 100/200 MHz to 10 GHz, 
which covers most needs.  With any of today’s broadband instantaneous bandwidth 
amplifiers, as many signal generators may be combined as desired to further 
reduce test time.  The frequencies would have to be close together, because you 
need the field calibration device response as well as the transmit antenna gain 
to be flat over the range of simultaneously transmitted frequencies.  Depending 
on the item tested, if the response is immediate (don’t need a 1 or 3 second 
dwell time) you could consider wideband frequency modulation using a single 
signal generator to accomplish the same thing. If the FM deviation were say 1%, 
you could step in 1% steps, instead of the much smaller ones typically 
prescribed at microwave frequencies.

 

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

From: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Ken - once again, I agree with you.

 

I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for 
thresholding and debug

Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode.

 

My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test 
I've ever been in!)

It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement.

 

As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient?

Or... 

Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result?

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> wrote:

If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more 
efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you 
get both polarizations at once.

 

With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will 
need to step back and use the traditional technique.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

yes, agree.

two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR.  So what is next level 
improvement?

 

Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V&H ?

 

Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x.   

 

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> wrote:

The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna 
seems simpler.

 

-- 

Ken Javor

(256) 650-5261

 

From: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

Hi Bill and everyone-

I am grateful for the insights.  

 

I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions.  

Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ).

The insights on emissions are a great start.  

 

Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity?

 

-Patrick.

 

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley 
<000000f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing.
We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m..
NSA came out fine.  Been doing it for about 3 or more decades.
If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware.
One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m.
All interesting freq noted for followup.


ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later.
Useless info to fill out.  Every test setup is different, even using the same 
equipment.

 

 

 

On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer 
<000012867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: 

 

 

Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem 
with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H 
is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same 
time. 

 

There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and 
mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results?

 

I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to 
investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner. 

 

 

 

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Element Materials Technology
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From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

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Hi, 

 

I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical 
polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for 
pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still 
have to test each frequency and polarization one by one. 

 

Sincerely, 

 

Dieter Paasche

 

This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential.  Any 
unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  If you have 
received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail 
or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and 
records.

 

From: Manny Barron <mbar...@ieee.org> 
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ?

 

CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

 

Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 
1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington 
state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 
10m chamber, which we did). 

 

Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE 
tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two 
frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two 
antennas and two receivers.  At that time they were also experimenting with 4 
antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually 
implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple 
antenna / receiver combinations.  The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob 
Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can 
elaborate on their RE test system of the time.

 

A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I 
was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well.  But then in 2002 
(now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers (all within 1 
mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC personnel, something 
about too many labs and equipment after the corporate merger.  They ended up 
taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA EMC test lab, about 100 
miles north.

 

So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test system. 
Had all the equipment,  but it was too late.

 

Manny Barron

 

 

 

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All - 

 

I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of 
two antennas during an emissions test.  For example, research or experiments on 
the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other 
horizontal.

 

Have any researchers looked at this?   

Are there any experimental studies? 

 

Thank you.

-Patrick

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