Electro-Metrics used to, but they don’t show on their web site. Eaton/Ailtech used to, but not in the business anymore. I have log-spirals from EMCO and Eaton spanning 100 MHz to 10 GHz. Never saw any spec’d below 100 MHz.
-- Ken Javor (256) 650-5261 From: "James Pawson (U3C)" <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> Reply-To: "James Pawson (U3C)" <ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> Date: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 3:43 AM To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? Hi Ken, all, The conversation about log spiral antennas has got me thinking and searching. Apart from the Emco / ETS 3100 series, are there any other antennas covering the 200MHz to 1GHz band that one could consider? Has anyone seen log spiral antennas that work down below 80MHz (I appreciate that size starts to become a limiting factor)? Thanks in advance and all the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy www.unit3compliance.co.uk | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 From: Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> Sent: 06 May 2022 19:26 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? For RE, the single biggest improvement for schedule is to use a time domain or FFT EMI receiver. Basically that is 1 second for each multi-MHz sweep. If your platform has a limited number of microwave uplinks, the entire RE test will take a few seconds. A log-spiral eliminates the need for dual polarization measurements, but the time savings will all be in the changeover, not the actual reduced number of sweeps. Also, no RE test outside receiver bands. At low frequencies (10/150 kHz to say 200 MHz) control cable common mode currents to control crosstalk. This is paired with a BCI-type requirement like a tailored CS114. Cables that meet the BCE (bulk cable emissions) and BCI requirement may be laid side-by-side with no concern for separation. RS is where time savings need to be found. No RS outside of transmitter bands. You need to account for off-platform transmitters if your platform is operational when such might be in operation. But only those equipments/subsystems that would be active at those times. Log-spirals are a must in this situation. They will cut test time in half. And that is significant for RS. They are available 100/200 MHz to 10 GHz, which covers most needs. With any of today’s broadband instantaneous bandwidth amplifiers, as many signal generators may be combined as desired to further reduce test time. The frequencies would have to be close together, because you need the field calibration device response as well as the transmit antenna gain to be flat over the range of simultaneously transmitted frequencies. Depending on the item tested, if the response is immediate (don’t need a 1 or 3 second dwell time) you could consider wideband frequency modulation using a single signal generator to accomplish the same thing. If the FM deviation were say 1%, you could step in 1% steps, instead of the much smaller ones typically prescribed at microwave frequencies. -- Ken Javor (256) 650-5261 From: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> Reply-To: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:50 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? Ken - once again, I agree with you. I don't see any path where dual antenna or dual tone can be used for thresholding and debug Finding any susceptibility moves a test to "normal" mode. My motivation comes from the last RS test I was in... (really, every RS test I've ever been in!) It was 8 to 10 hours of boredom with one or two minutes of excitement. As an engineer, I can't help but ask, how can I make this more efficient? Or... Why spend 10 hours in test, when 2.5 hours might provide the same result? On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 9:20 AM Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> wrote: If the signal generators are inexpensive enough, more signals is more efficient. Rather than two antennas, I again suggest a log-spiral, where you get both polarizations at once. With any of these “hurry up” schemes, if you see a susceptibility, you will need to step back and use the traditional technique. -- Ken Javor (256) 650-5261 From: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> Reply-To: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14 PM To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? yes, agree. two tones and single antenna is promoted by AR. So what is next level improvement? Can we speed tests even more with two antennas, simultaneous V&H ? Wondering if 2x antenna plus 2x tone will cut test time by 4x. On Fri, May 6, 2022, 09:08 Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> wrote: The AR approach of multiple frequencies at the same time from a single antenna seems simpler. -- Ken Javor (256) 650-5261 From: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> Reply-To: Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> Date: Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:01 AM To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? Hi Bill and everyone- I am grateful for the insights. I have two goals- first is two antennas for radiated emissions. Second goal is dual antenna for radiated susceptibility(i.e. immunity ). The insights on emissions are a great start. Has anyone attempted dual antennas for susceptibility/immunity? -Patrick. On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 10:52 PM Bill Owsley <000000f5a03f18eb-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: No clue as to what your thinking is about using multiple antennas in testing. We used 4 masts, high band and low band at 3 m and 10 m.. NSA came out fine. Been doing it for about 3 or more decades. If ya gots the money, spend it on more hardware. One radiated run in about 30 minutes cover high and low band at 3m and 10m. All interesting freq noted for followup. ps. Even tho' all document the azimuth and altitude, no one uses it later. Useless info to fill out. Every test setup is different, even using the same equipment. On Monday, May 2, 2022, 06:10:34 PM EDT, David Schaefer <000012867effceb4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote: Prescans you could do vertical and horizontal at the same time, but the problem with final data is you need to maximize. The worst turntable angle for V and H is probably different, so you can’t maximize the antenna height at the same time. There is also the issue of NSA – was NSA data taken with the 2nd antenna and mast in the chamber? And with them both moving how will that affect results? I heard the Keysight team in California was planning on taking some data to investigate, but that was pre-covid so it probably got put on the back burner. Error! Filename not specified. David Schaefer Technical Manager Element Materials Technology 9349 W Broadway Ave Brooklyn Park , MN 55445 , United States O +1 612 638 5136 ext. 10461 david.schae...@element.com www.element.com Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. From: Paasche, Dieter [mailto:dieter.paas...@christiedigital.com] Sent: Monday, May 2, 2022 3:59 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? CAUTION:This email originated from outside of Element Materials Technology. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact IT Service Desk if you are in any doubt about this email. Hi, I have seen that too at HP in Sacramento, CA. One antenna was in Vertical polarization and the other in Vertical. In my personal opinion, it is Ok for pre-scan, but I think it is complicated for the final scan. I think you still have to test each frequency and polarization one by one. Sincerely, Dieter Paasche This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is confidential. Any unauthorized use, distribution or disclosure is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please notify the sender by reply e-mail or telephone and delete it and any attachments from your computer system and records. From: Manny Barron <mbar...@ieee.org> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2022 4:46 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Dual antenna during RE test ? CAUTION:This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Back around 1998 when I worked for Tandem Computers (purchased by Compaq in 1998, then purchased by HP in 2001), I visited the HP EMC Lab in Washington state (I went to see their 10m chamber since we were thinking of getting a 2nd 10m chamber, which we did). Well they used two antennas connected to two separate receivers for their RE tests. Can't remember if it was horizontal and vertical OR if it was two frequency ranges (30-300MHz and 300-1000MHz), but it was definitely two antennas and two receivers. At that time they were also experimenting with 4 antennas but I think still 2 receivers, but don't know if that was actually implemented. They wrote their own custom test software to handle the multiple antenna / receiver combinations. The guy who ran that HP EMC test lab was Bob Dockey who later went to Philips Medical, if you can find him maybe he can elaborate on their RE test system of the time. A year later we (now Compaq) purchased a new 10m chamber (now we had two), so I was thinking about the two antenna RE test method as well. But then in 2002 (now HP), HP shut down two full EMC labs with three 10m chambers (all within 1 mi area in Cupertino, CA), and laid off almost all EMC personnel, something about too many labs and equipment after the corporate merger. They ended up taking equipment to be tested to their Roseville, CA EMC test lab, about 100 miles north. So I never got a chance to research and implement the 2 antenna RE test system. Had all the equipment, but it was too late. Manny Barron On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 11:00 AM Patrick <conwa...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi All - I'm wondering if there is any academic or practical literature on the use of two antennas during an emissions test. For example, research or experiments on the use of two DRH's above 1.0 GHz, side-by-side, one vertical, the other horizontal. Have any researchers looked at this? Are there any experimental studies? Thank you. -Patrick - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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