In this cacophony of opinions and interpretations , didn’t see any NRTL (like 
UL, TUV, CSA etc)  experts statements on the rational of test and compliance 
criteria … 


> On Sep 4, 2024, at 9:38 AM, Ralph McDiarmid <rmm.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Amund,
> 
> The standard I have access to, IEC 62368-1:2018 RLV © IEC 2018, has clause 
> 4.1.2 Use of Components.  Nowhere in that clause could I find a statement 
> supporting what the lab thinks is needed.  The noun "critical component" does 
> not appear anywhere in the 2018 version, but I suggest it is a synonym for 
> the term "safeguard" defined and used throughout IEC 62368-1.  The lab really 
> should be using language and terminology aligned with the standard being 
> applied.
> 
> In other standards that do include Abnormal Condition tests, component 
> temperatures are not a pass/fail criterion in that operating condition.  It 
> appears to be so with IEC 62368, but it's not explicit and seems open to 
> interpretation.
> 
> However, in Normal Condition at +55C ambient it looks like you've got an 
> issue with at least one component.   You might need to change the upper end 
> of your operating temperature range.  (55C is very high for outdoor 
> equipment.)
> 
> Ralph
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amund Westin <am...@westin-emission.no> 
> Sent: September 4, 2024 2:56 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal 
> condition - Fail
> 
> Ralph,
> 
> “The standard also does not accept that critical components get a 
> temperature above what is specified in the test report for that 
> component»“
> 
> The lab refer to Clause 4.1.2.
> Right now, I don't have access to the standard, so I cant check the 
> text.
> 
> Best ragards Amund
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2024-09-04 09:15, Amund Westin wrote:
>> Thanks all for good comments!
>> 
>> Ralph:
>> I'm still waiting for lab feedback on this one :“ The standard also 
>> does not accept that critical components get a temperature above what 
>> is specified in the test report for that component». “
>> I have a feeling they will reply : Annex G.5.3.3.2, even though it is 
>> not a transformer, but a DC/DC module.
>> I'll post the lab feedback when it comes in.
>> 
>> 
>> John W:
>> Improvement of ventilation is an option that is under discussion in the 
>> R&D now. Trick to do, because of current design.
>> 
>> 
>> We got new information yesterday and I summarize the current situation:
>> 1) Abnormal condition: DCDCmodule spec +85C, measured under to be 91C 
>> under abnormal condition
>> 2) Normal condition: DCDCmodule spec +85C, measured to be 83C under 
>> normal condition (+25C ambient)
>> 3) Normal condition: DCDCmodule spec +85C, measured to be 88C under 
>> normal condition (+55C ambient, spec final product is -40C to +55C))
>> 
>> 
>> Facts:
>> DCDCmodule is CB certified (-40C to +85C)
>> DCDCmodule is places inside a fire enclosure
>> DCDCmodule is not accessable / touchable
>> Final product with DCDCmodule have been running in the field +20 years 
>> without failure.
>> 
>> 
>> I'll return with more information.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards Amund
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2024-09-03 16:52, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
>>> Perhaps Amund could ask the lab which clause in IEC 62368 supports
>>> their statement, “ _The standard also does not accept that critical
>>> components get a temperature above what is specified in the test
>>> report for that component». “_
>>> 
>>> _ _
>>> 
>>> This is an Abnormal Condition and safeguard parameters, which include
>>> rated temperature, are not subject to the same constraints imposed
>>> during Normal Condition.
>>> 
>>> _ _
>>> 
>>> I suggest there are two problems here. One is that the lab seems to
>>> misunderstand Abnormal Condition and the other is terminology like
>>> _Basic Safeguard Parameters_ and _Supplementary Safeguard Parameters_
>>> used in Figure 45 do not seem to be defined anywhere.
>>> 
>>> _ _
>>> 
>>> _Ralph_
>>> 
>>> From: Richard Nute <ri...@ieee.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2024 12:54 PM
>>> To: rmm.priv...@gmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: RE: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 -
>>> Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> Further to Ralph’s comments… and with thanks to Amund…
>>> 
>>> Since the lab has its own interpretation of “abnormal” different
>>> than that of 62368-2, the lab needs to make its position on
>>> “abnormal” conditions known and apply to TC108 for consideration
>>> of a change to 62368-2.
>>> 
>>> Or, Amund can forward the lab’s interpretation directly to TC108,
>>> although this will probably go to the interpretation panel.
>>> 
>>> Rich
>>> 
>>> ps:  The lab’s response does make sense – sort of.  It is filled
>>> with “what ifs” that I have some doubt that the assertions are
>>> from the lab’s experience.  For example, for the exterior of the
>>> module to reach 85 C, the interior has to be hotter (maybe much
>>> hotter) and may exceed solid insulation rated temperature. We and the
>>> lab don’t know, but at  85 C, we (us) assume the interior solid
>>> insulation (and other safeguards) does not exceed its rating (which
>>> must be greater than 85 C).
>>> 
>>> Another statement that creates doubt for me is that “_also lead to
>>> other dangers such as mains voltage being absorbed_.”  The lab does
>>> not know what the “_other dangers_” are, and leaves us up in the
>>> air about what is “_mains voltage being absorbed_…”  Absorbed by
>>> what?
>>> 
>>> rn
>>> 
>>> From: Ralph McDiarmid <rmm.priv...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2024 9:52 AM
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 -
>>> Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> To add to what Charlie has mentioned, the integrity of a _safeguard_,
>>> like protective separation, can be verified at the end of the Abnormal
>>> with a dielectric test.  A satisfactory result would indicate that the
>>> _safeguard_ remains effective.  The standard states that _safeguard_
>>> parameters, like rated temperature, can be exceeded during an abnormal
>>> test.
>>> 
>>> If your lab doesn’t agree with any of this, I suggest you check to
>>> see if they are accredited to perform test and evaluation for IEC
>>> 62368.   The lab may not be able to comprehend and interpret a complex
>>> standard like 62368.
>>> 
>>> Ralph
>>> 
>>> From: Charlie Blackham <char...@sulisconsultants.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2024 1:28 AM
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 -
>>> Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> Amund
>>> 
>>> A safety critical component rated at 85C is rated to run safely at
>>> that temperature for the life of the product.
>>> 
>>> The temperature is only exceeded under an abnormal condition, which by
>>> definition is not a normal operating condition:
>>> 
>>> 3.3.7.1
>>> 
>>> abnormal operating condition
>>> 
>>> temporary operating condition that is not a normal operating condition
>>> and is not a single fault condition of the equipment itself
>>> 
>>> a component providing ES3 to ES1 isolation has double or reinforced
>>> insulation, so remains safe even in a single fault condition, which
>>> we’re not assessing here.
>>> 
>>> It looks like the lab doesn’t properly understand clauses B.3 and
>>> B.4 and I’ve never seen a competent lab use “bad luck” in a
>>> report before 😊
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> 
>>> Charlie
>>> 
>>> Charlie Blackham
>>> 
>>> Sulis Consultants Ltd
>>> 
>>> Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
>>> 
>>> Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ [1]
>>> 
>>> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>>> 
>>> From: Amund Westin <am...@westin-emission.no>
>>> Sent: 02 September 2024 09:02
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal
>>> condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> Hello Rich
>>> 
>>> The component that gets hot, is a DC/DC module, bought from a
>>> well-known manufacturer and the module holds a CB certificate.
>>> 
>>> Module Spec is +85C, when it reaches +89C, the final product itself
>>> shouts down as a consequence to too high temperature.
>>> 
>>> The lab answer as follow:
>>> 
>>> _«What fails here is that a very critical component gets too hot.
>>> What makes this component so critical is that this component is used
>>> as a separation between primary to secondary circuits (So ES3 -> ES1).
>>> As the module again has critical components in it (such as a
>>> transformer) which are in the separator, we have no control over how
>>> hot this component gets as it has only been tested up to 85oC. If the
>>> component gets too hot, this can cause the separation to be broken and
>>> you will then get primary voltage (ES3) into the secondary circuit
>>> (which is ES1)._
>>> 
>>> _This can also lead to other dangers such as mains voltage being
>>> absorbed in the event of bad luck or a fire. (This can also spread out
>>> of the product, if other products are connected via e.g. the RS232
>>> connector). The standard also does not accept that critical components
>>> get a temperature above what is specified in the test report for that
>>> component»._
>>> 
>>> Does it make sense?
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> Amund
>>> 
>>> Fra: Richard Nute
>>> Sendt: 30. august 2024 22:37
>>> Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Emne: Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal condition
>>> - Fail
>>> 
>>> Hello Amund:
>>> 
>>> Did you point out to the lab the relevant sub-clauses of 62368-2 per
>>> Charlie Blackham?  If so, what was their reply (i.e., what safeguard
>>> failed)?
>>> 
>>> Good luck,
>>> 
>>> Rich
>>> 
>>> From: Amund Westin <am...@westin-emission.no>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2024 5:15 AM
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: [PSES] SV: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal condition
>>> - Fail
>>> 
>>> Under abnormal condition (holes in the chassis are blocked), the
>>> internal DC/DC module reach its maximum spec (+85C) and at +89C, the
>>> product make a shutdown due to its own safety.
>>> 
>>>     * No fire is generated.
>>>     * Hot module/component, yes, but not accessible for humans (inside
>>> product)
>>>     * The module is located inside the fire enclosure.
>>>     * Nothing dangerous situation is generated, but product shuts down
>>> due to too hot module. Product could (maybe) also get permanent
>>> damaged, if the module broke down due to the heat.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, the product seems to be safe regarding to both fire safety and
>>> electrical hazard. Isn’t that what it’s all about? Safe product,
>>> but maybe poor reliable if such Abnormal condition happens.
>>> 
>>> The lab does not agree with me.
>>> 
>>> BR Amund
>>> 
>>> Fra: Amund Westin
>>> Sendt: 29. august 2024 20:05
>>> Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Emne: [PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> Thanks James,
>>> 
>>> No, the component that gets hot, but it is not accessible. It’s on a
>>> pcb inside the metal enclosure. The temperature was measures to 87C.
>>> The CB test report for the DC/DC component says it was tested and
>>> approved up to 85C.
>>> 
>>> No ignition. The FAIL statement was due to higher temperature than
>>> approved in CB report for the component.
>>> 
>>> Best regards Amund
>>> 
>>> Fra: James Pawson (U3C)
>>> Sendt: 29. august 2024 18:35
>>> Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Emne: Re: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> Amund,
>>> 
>>> Is the temperature accessible?
>>> 
>>> Is there any ignition caused?
>>> 
>>> If no then the requirements have likely been met.
>>> 
>>> All the best
>>> 
>>> James
>>> 
>>> James Pawson
>>> 
>>> Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver
>>> 
>>> Unit 3 Compliance Ltd
>>> 
>>> EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA :
>>> Consultancy
>>> 
>>> www.unit3compliance.co.uk [2] | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk
>>> 
>>> +44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957
>>> 
>>> 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL
>>> 
>>> Registered in England and Wales # 10574298
>>> 
>>> _Office hours:_
>>> 
>>> _Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and
>>> troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m
>>> available/contactable between 1300h to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri._
>>> 
>>> _For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email
>>> on __he...@unit3compliance.co.uk__ or call 01274 911747. Our lead
>>> times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks._
>>> 
>>> From: Charlie Blackham <char...@sulisconsultants.com>
>>> Sent: 29 August 2024 17:19
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> Amund
>>> 
>>> Basic safeguard parameters may be exceeded during abnormal condition
>>> tested in Annex B.3.
>>> 
>>> B.3.8 Compliance criteria during and after abnormal operating
>>> conditions
>>> 
>>> _During an abnormal operating condition that does not lead to a single
>>> fault condition, all safeguards shall remain effective. After
>>> restoration of normal operating conditions, all safeguards shall
>>> comply with applicable requirements._
>>> 
>>> _ _
>>> 
>>> _If an abnormal operating condition leads to a consequential fault,
>>> the compliance criteria of B.4.8 apply_
>>> 
>>> _ _
>>> 
>>> The following is provided in PD IEC TR 62368‑2:2019, Part 2:
>>> Explanatory information related to IEC 62368-1:2018 (same in the 2014
>>> version)
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> 
>>> Charlie
>>> 
>>> Charlie Blackham
>>> 
>>> Sulis Consultants Ltd
>>> 
>>> Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
>>> 
>>> Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/ [1]
>>> 
>>> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>>> 
>>> From: Amund Westin <am...@westin-emission.no>
>>> Sent: 29 August 2024 17:07
>>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: [PSES] IEC62368-1 - Abnormal condition - Fail
>>> 
>>> We measure a few degrees too high temperature on a power component
>>> inside the product, when the ventilation holes in the chassis are
>>> blocked (abnormal condition).
>>> 
>>> Draft verdict from test lab is FAIL.
>>> 
>>> Our claim is that such abnormal condition will not happen due to:
>>> 
>>>     * Product installed by skilled and trained technical persons.
>>>     * Product installed in racks / environment that make it impossible
>>> for such blocking.
>>> 
>>> The product is placed in closed premises with fences covering the
>>> premises. It’s part of international aircraft navigation system.
>>> 
>>> Question:
>>> 
>>> Is it reasonable to require such an abnormal condition test, when that
>>> a situation is not practical to happened in real life?
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> BR Amund Westin
>>> 
>>> -------------------------
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>>> -------------------------
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>> 
>> --
>> Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Mvh Amund Westin (Siv.ing / 
>> M.Sc)
>> **********************************
>> Westin Emission
>> Oslo, Norway
>> EMC / Safety / Product Compliance consultant
>> Cell: (+47) 920 17 031
>> Skype: EMC.amund
>> E-mail: am...@westin-emission.no
>> Web: https://www.westin-emission.no/
>> Linkedin: http://lnkd.in/2xHtrH
>> Member of Norsk Elektroteknisk Komite - sector EMC and IET
>> **********************************
>> 
>> -
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
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>> _________________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: 
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> 
> -- 
> Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Mvh Amund Westin (Siv.ing / 
> M.Sc)
> **********************************
> Westin Emission
> Oslo, Norway
> EMC / Safety / Product Compliance consultant
> Cell: (+47) 920 17 031
> Skype: EMC.amund
> E-mail: am...@westin-emission.no
> Web: https://www.westin-emission.no/
> Linkedin: http://lnkd.in/2xHtrH
> Member of Norsk Elektroteknisk Komite - sector EMC and IET
> **********************************
> 
> -
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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