Doug,
Respectfully, I would not agree. I'm not sure what "other areas of
engineering" you're referring to. 🙂
First, if we are discussing commercial emissions standards, they are
ancient and date back to the days when Apple 2 PCs were interfering with
"rabbit ear" TV reception (1979) when Part 47 was drafted. The levels
were largely drawn from the VDE 0871 standard. I doubt anyone with
knowledge of the methodology has suggested that the overall process is
deterministic.
The question of measurement uncertainty was championed by Don Heirman
for years and continues to be debated.
Regulations and standards have done a very good, if somewhat painful,
job of quantifying the uncertainty of the measurement process. The most
competent and well executed test laboratory cannot fully control a
customer's EUT or even have total control over the configuration. That
is an advantage for a manufacturer having their own in-house test facility.
All that said, I feel that the "state of EMC testing" has evolved to
produce very respectable results, given the real world constraints.
Best to all and 73 Jim!
Brent DeWitt, AB1LF
IEEE EMC Society Senior Life Member
Milford, MA
On 10/8/2024 7:07 PM, doug emcesd.com wrote:
Seems like the state of EMC testing is not good compared to other
areas of engineering!
Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: [email protected]
Website: http://dsmith.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Jim Bacher, WB8VSU <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 8, 2024 8:50:49 AM
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] technical musings
Back in the 1980s I had a variation in system measurements between
labs. Management decided the lab I used wasn't any good. In the
process of trying to convince management variations were normal, I
came to the conclusion that measuring systems at different labs would
likely have a +5 to -7 dB variations.
None of our test equipment is perfectly flat. No one calibrates every
Hz to account for those imperfections. The frequency being measured is
typically not on any of the calibrated frequencies.
For testing a system, equipment and cable variations can impact their
emmisions significantly. I have seen over 20 dB of variation due to
the variations. How much effort was made to peak signals?
Then is the test equipment measurement operator an avid Ham DXer
(chases weak signals to talk to far away stations)? Reason is a Ham
will likely do a more accurate peaking of rotation and height of the
search antennas.
I have had one government lab fail to compensate for a preamp when
reporting levels and said the product failed. I had the agent pull it
back for a few days, then take it back and it passed with no changes.
So some errors can be to using the wrong calibration factors when
calculating the levels.
Jim Bacher, WB8VSU
[email protected] or [email protected]
JBRC Consulting LLC
Product EMC & Regulatory Consultant
https://www.trc.guru/
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email:[email protected]
IEEE Life Senior Member
On October 8, 2024 11:14:28 AM David Schaefer
<[email protected]> wrote:
Harry Hodes gave a presentation at the C63 meetings last week on
proficiency testing. He runs the ACIL PT program, and the data he
shared showed a ton of variance. Many labs were in I think +/-3-4 dB
range, but there were outliers – the worst cases being one lab
reading 30-40 dB high, another 30-40 dB low. If I recall correctly
for one PT program 95 labs participated and around 10 were outside
the expected tolerance.
Doing a check of the measurement system prior to testing is critical.
A comb gen scan takes only a few minutes but should catch these
egregious errors.
David Schaefer​​​​
Technical Manager
Element Materials Technology
9349 W Broadway Ave
Brooklyn Park
,
MN
55445
,
United States
O +1Â 612Â 638Â 5136 <tel:+1%20612%20638%205136>
ext. 10461
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
www.element.com
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*From:*doug emcesd.com <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Monday, October 7, 2024 6:08 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [PSES] technical musings
*CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of Element Materials
Technology. *DO NOT* click links or open attachments unless you
recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact the
TOC if you are in any doubt about this email.
I have seen differences of 9 dB on the same measurement on an EUT and
comb generator by different accredited labs!
Doug
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