For a router spindle (designed to run at 12-24k rpm) we normally run a warm-up routine that takes about 5 min. Run the spindle at 50% of its maximum rated speed for 2 min, then 75% for 2 more min, and then 1 min at 100% of the maximum rated speed.
Also I like to do a spindle run in on any spindle that is new or has not been ran or been in storage for 6 months or more. This involves a series of running and stopping for a time going from a low speed up. Checking the spindle temps regularly throughout. It takes a couple of hours or more if all goes well. If at any point during the run-in procedure the spindle starts to overheat, stop and let it cool for several hours, then start the run-in procedure over from the beginning. Different manufacturers will have varying recommendations for this. One I've seen is runs at 7% of rated speed for 15min, off for 5min, 12% for 15min, off 5min, 20% for 15min, off 5min, 25% for 15min, off 5min, 35% for 10min, off 5min, 50% for 10min, off 5min, 70"% for 10min. I've had freshly rebuilt spindles fail on the run-in, and some that I've had to restart about half way through a couple of times. During each running step you should see bearing temperatures peak, level off and maybe drop a bit at each step in speed. If during one of the steps you don't see the bearing temp level off, stop let it cool back to ambient temp and start over. I would consider more than 20C above ambient temperature to be overheating in an air cooled spindle. I've had spindles that would run that hot normally (Omlat "Self Cooled") but I was never able to get one of those to last more than 2 years in a 24hr 5day factory setting. Got tired of paying over $9k a pop to rebuild them and replaced them with water cooled Hiteco spindles that cost about $6k new and spindle life more than tripled. Those Omlat spindles would be OK in a shop that only runs 1 shift a day, but they don't hold up to running 24hr. With no cooling capability other than sinking heat into the machine frame and radiant cooling those "Self Cooled" spindles need the overnight down time to cool off. The other fan cooled spindles we have typicaly only run about 15C above ambient (or less). Todd Zuercher P. Graham Dunn Inc. 630 Henry Street Dalton, Ohio 44618 Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 -----Original Message----- From: Viesturs Lācis <viesturs.la...@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 6:27 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. General question to audience - how are you doing the warmup of spindle? Immediately at full speed? I am idling it for few minutes at low speed (around 3000-5000 RPM) instead of going to full speed immediately. The idea is that grease is stiffer when cooler and warmup at lower speeds increases the lifetime of bearings. Viesturs pirmd., 2023. g. 13. marts, plkst. 18:56 — lietotājs Leonardo Marsaglia (<ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) rakstīja: > > Hi Todd, and thanks for the response! > > Well the manufacturer only gave nominal and max speed for the spindle > and a couple of graphics to see the u.f. and p.f. curves to have some > guidance. > I'm always using the spindle at 15000 rpm so I think that's ok. Also > I've been using it like this for more than 6 months with no troubles > and it was working almost 10 hours straight each day. > > The spindle sounds right when at high speed and with no cutting forces > involved, I can't feel any difference from the first time I tested it. > Also by hand it feels the same as always but that could be my > perception off course. > > Anyway, last Saturday we tested it again. First 25 minutes of warming > up without cutting. The temperature settled at 55°C at the body of the > spindle. Then we cut a board for about 40 minutes. We monitored the > spindle temperature at the bearings and stator and never exceeded the > 65°C at the stator / 57°C at the bearings. VFD current, voltage and > internal temperature were ok (no more than 43°C when working at full > load on the VFD). Then we started to cut another board and that's when > the VFD started giving problems. At the moment we tried to accelerate > the spindle to 15000 rpm (I'm using a 10 seconds ramp approximately to > reach 15000 rpm) the overcurrent alarm started . There was no way of > making it to work. It looks to me that the VFD could be the problem because > everything else was ok. > > Today I'm going to test it again before taking it apart, and then I'll > open it and check the capacitors and all the joints to see if I see an > evident problem there. But I'm almost 100% sure the problem is in the VFD. > > > > El lun, 13 mar 2023 a las 13:19, Todd Zuercher > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > escribió: > > > The wrong VFD settings can cause an overheat due to overcurrent. > > Were you running the spindle at lower RPMs? Router spindles > > generally don't like running at speeds less than 6000rpm, especially > > if the VFD settings aren’t right. The VFD needs to be set so that > > it reduces the voltage applied with reduced frequency. If this > > volt/hz reduction curve isn't right, either you can over current and > > overheat the motor at lower speeds, or if set too low you lose what > > little torque the spindle has. To know what these settings need to > > be set to you need to know the motor's rated speed and voltage at > > those speeds and current ratings. If the spindle manufacturer > > didn't supply a midrange voltage setting, you may need to find that setting > > experimentally. > > > > That said, high speed spindle bearings can be failing and the > > spindle still spin mostly freely by hand, but the spindle will be > > loud at speed due to vibration and will overheat if run for extended > > periods of time at speed. A high speed spindle should be very quiet > > at speed (not sound like a conventional router motor.) Check for any > > slightest notchy-ness, when turning the spindle by hand. It is > > often more cost-effective to have a loud spindle rebuilt before it > > totally fails, than to run it till it won’t run anymore and then try > > to rebuilt it or have to replace it because damage to the spindle is too > > severe. > > > > What are your spindle motor’s rated speed, voltage and current? What > > do you have the VFD set up for minimum, maximum, base and mid-range > > voltages, and frequencies? Yes, those are 8 separate settings that > > most VFDs need to have configured to run a high speed spindle > > correctly. Unfortunately many times the spindle manufacture will > > only provide you with the spindle’s rated frequency and voltage (use > > this for the “Base” frequency and voltage in the VFD) and the > > maximum frequency and maybe voltage. If you are lucky and the > > spindle manufacture provided you with some numbers to use for the > > mid-range settings if so, use them. They may not be called that, it > > might just look like a low or minimum speed setting with a reduced > > voltage (might be 5-7k rpm). If you don’t have a recommendation > > from the spindle manufacture, experiment with different mid-range > > voltage settings to find one that keeps the VFD’s current output safely > > below the spindles rated continuous current. > > > > For example I was just working at replacing a VFD for an HSD spindle > > that had recommendations for 7k rpm @ 220v for the mid-range, but I > > also had to set the minimum frequency and voltage to 0.5Hz and 1.0v, > > to prevent the motor from occasionally stalling on acceleration when > > starting from stopped. When those settings were incorrect the drive > > would overcurrent and shut down. When they were close but not quite > > right the drive would run at high current and not always accelerate > > correctly (stalling). With them correct the drive accelerates the > > spindle quickly and only shows peak currents of about 15amps while doing it. > > > > PS I meant to send this last week, but forgot to click send, so it > > sat on my work computer till this morning. > > > > Todd Zuercher > > P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > 630 Henry Street > > Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 9:20 AM > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > > > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > > > In fact, the day the rotor slipped, when the spindle cooled down a > > bit, it started to work ok until I had the problem again. What I'm > > mostly worried about is, if this was caused due to an overheat, why > > did that overheat occur in the first place? > > > > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 11:17, Leonardo Marsaglia > > (<ldmarsag...@gmail.com > > >) > > escribió: > > > > > Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather > > > particular > > >> about how the VFD is configured because of their low inductance. > > >> What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? You may > > >> need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and voltage. > > >> What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz curve to > > >> help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at lower RPMs, > > >> and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on acceleration. > > >> These settings usually need to be significantly different from > > >> most VFD's default setting (which are usually configured for a > > >> 60hz > > >> motor.) > > > > > > > > > Hi Todd, > > > > > > I'll take a look and attach my settings as soon as possible for > > > you to see. But this setup was working well until the extreme heat days > > > started. > > > > > > Could it be that the ambient temperature (40ºC or more) could have > > > made the rotor slip effect worse? Maybe I was on the limit before > > > and the extreme heat conditions triggered the effect? > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > El mié, 8 mar 2023 a las 10:57, Todd Zuercher > > > (<to...@pgrahamdunn.com>) > > > escribió: > > > > > >> Most high speed spindles (such as router spindles) are rather > > >> particular about how the VFD is configured because of their low > > >> inductance. What are your settings for base frequency and voltage? > > >> You may need to adjust the settings for midrange frequency and > > >> voltage. What these settings will do is adjust the volts/hertz > > >> curve to help keep the motor from overcurrent when running at > > >> lower RPMs, and help prevent stalls/excessive slippage on > > >> acceleration. These settings usually need to be significantly > > >> different from most VFD's default setting (which are usually > > >> configured for a 60hz > > >> motor.) > > >> > > >> Todd Zuercher > > >> P. Graham Dunn Inc. > > >> 630 Henry Street > > >> Dalton, Ohio 44618 > > >> Phone: (330)828-2105ext. 2031 > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Leonardo Marsaglia <ldmarsag...@gmail.com> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 10:05 PM > > >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > >> <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> > > >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: Air cooled router spindle problem > > >> > > >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe. > > >> > > >> Well, I tested it for almost an hour with no load at 15000 RPM > > >> and the temperature settled at 55ºC in the bottom side where the > > >> bearings for the tool holder are, and almost 65º in the body part > > >> where the > > stator is. > > >> According to one of the Chinese suppliers of these spindles, 75ºC > > >> it's a pretty common working temperature. I'm still waiting for a > > >> detailed answer from the factory. This time, the VFD worked fine, > > >> no whining with no rotor spin. Now I need to cut some wood while > > >> monitoring the temperature during the process and hope the > > >> temperature > > doesn't go too high. > > >> > > >> Anyway, I'm looking for new VFD drives just in case. From what I > > >> can tell the problem could be the VFD as Gene and Jon pointed out. > > >> > > >> I'll let you know how it goes when cutting wood again. > > >> > > >> Thanks to all for your help! :) > > >> > > >> El dom, 5 mar 2023 a las 18:11, gene heskett > > >> (<ghesk...@shentel.net>) > > >> escribió: > > >> > > >> > On 3/5/23 12:59, Leonardo Marsaglia wrote: > > >> > > By the way, one subtle thing I noticed too that leads me to > > >> > > the bearings > > >> > as > > >> > > a problem. > > >> > > > > >> > > Normally when the spindle is off and the dust removal vacuum > > >> > > system is working, the spindle tends to spin by itself > > >> > > because of the vacuum action on the impeller I installed. > > >> > > This almost never happened yesterday. So, to sum up: I was > > >> > > able to free turn the spindle by hand at all times, but the > > >> > > vacuum was not always able to make it spin the impeller and > > >> > > if it did it wasn't nearly as fast as days before. This is > > >> > > what makes me suspect about the bearings. Also, almost all > > >> > > the problems I experienced yesterday were with cutting forces > > >> > > involved, never with the spindle turning free. Could > > >> > it > > >> > > be that the extra heat and torque that's building up because > > >> > > of a damaged bearing is what's making the VFD triggering for > > >> > > overcurrent? > > >> > > > > >> > > What puzzles me still is when the spindle was too hot and > > >> > > with no load > > >> > the > > >> > > VFD only whined and couldn't make the spindle turn. This, as > > >> > > Jon pointed out, recovered on its own a few minutes later. > > >> > > > > >> > > I'll be there doing some tests in a few hours so I'll let you > > >> > > know if I > > >> > can > > >> > > note anything new. > > >> > > > > >> > > Again a lot of thanks to you guys for being so kind and helpful! > > >> > > :) > > >> > > > > >> > > El sáb, 4 mar 2023 a las 15:51, Leonardo Marsaglia (< > > >> > ldmarsag...@gmail.com>) > > >> > > escribió: > > >> > > > > >> > >> Hi guys. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Sorry for the OT but I'm having a strange behavior with my > > >> > >> spindle and > > >> > I'm > > >> > >> a little worried. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> The problem I had today for the first time is the spindle > > >> > >> was getting really hot and started to slip (you could hear > > >> > >> the frequency from the inverter was on spot but the rotor > > >> > >> sometimes wasn't even turning).After > > >> > a > > >> > >> few seconds of slipping the VFD triggered the over current > > >> > >> alarm and the spindle was stopped. Once the the spindle > > >> > >> cooled down it worked > > >> > perfectly. > > >> > >> This never happened before but also I must clarify that > > >> > >> today the > > >> > ambient > > >> > >> temperature reached 40⁰C and I'm sure that under that roof > > >> > >> where the > > >> > router > > >> > >> is placed there were 45⁰C so I suspect this has something to > > >> > >> do with the problem. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> The spindle is rated 11kw of max power output and is air cooled. > > >> > >> It has > > >> > a > > >> > >> built in fan motor so it doesn't rely on spindle speed for cooling. > > >> > >> It always gets warm (there are several labels on the > > >> > >> spindle’s body for caution because of the heat) but nothing like > > >> > >> today. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Could this be normal because of the extremely hot days I'm > > >> > >> having > > >> here? > > >> > >> Should I think about changing bearings or even rewind the motor? > > >> > >> I've > > >> > only > > >> > >> had the over current alarms when the spindle was too hot. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> I will be really thankful if you can share your thoughts > > >> > >> about > > this. > > >> > > > >> > I think I'd want to look at the solder joints on the big > > >> > capacitors in the vfd, keeping in mind that they can hold quite > > >> > a charge for quite a while when turned off, and that is > > >> > definitely a lethal voltage. When I said look, I'm looking with > > >> > an old camera lens for a magnifying glass, checking for > > >> > hairline cracks in the solder, particularly at the edge of the > > >> > solder puddle where the copper foil begins, that is a favorite > > >> > place for some seemingly crazy thermal effects. And you can't > > >> > just scrape it down to clean copper & bridge it with solder, > > >> > you must bridge the crack with a piece of suitable gauge copper > > >> > wire when patching such. And for future crack development > > >> > protection, a 2% silver bearing solder is much stronger > > than the usual eutectic mix. > > >> > > > >> > Same inspection comments apply to the semi's soldered joints, > > >> > heat sinks can exert joint breaking forces as they heat. I > > >> > have a couple of old 16mm projector lenses that get me up close > > >> > and personal > > views. > > >> > An rch looks like a saw log to them. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Thanks for your help as always! > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Leonardo. > > >> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > Emc-users mailing list > > >> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >> > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% > > >> > > 2F%2< > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%252> > > >> > > Fli%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Ca716ced2cd8b4 > > >> > > 5443 > > >> > > b1208db1fe039ab%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C > > >> > > 6381 > > >> > > 38820129481532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC > > >> > > JQIj > > >> > > oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdat > > >> > > a=rj > > >> > > 6R%2BZb94rpPdzr%2F32kOery9rQ%2Ft47LLFaSdSWYo5h4%3D&reserved=0 > > >> > > sts.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C > > >> > > 01%7 > > >> > > Cto > > >> > > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7C7c75dca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C57 > > >> > > 5854 > > >> > > 4c5 > > >> > > 73f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638138415730530106%7CUnknow > > >> > > n%7C > > >> > > TWF > > >> > > pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi > > >> > > LCJX > > >> > > VCI > > >> > > 6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s1%2FMmGIe%2BOIgMMj1IgKv6OTsDFx > > >> > > MuEk > > >> > > 7ms > > >> > > t4mMsD%2FGE%3D&reserved=0 > > >> > > > >> > Cheers, Gene Heskett. > > >> > -- > > >> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: > > >> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." > > >> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) > > >> > If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law > > >> respectable. > > >> > - Louis D. 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>> > ca8021a427b281508db1f821107%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43% > > >> > 7C0% > > >> > 7C0 > > >> > %7C638138415730530106%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwM > > >> > DAiL > > >> > CJQ > > >> > IjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdat > > >> > a=3X tFc wOSBSFmFW5t2k9Bzfka64mLqLY4LnhinVrTrWY%3D&reserved=0> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Emc-users mailing list > > >> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > >> > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F > > >> > %2Fl%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Cf0bef211aac449 > > >> > 12863108db2476ca75%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7 > > >> > C638143864868766928%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA > > >> > iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C > > >> > &sdata=bgXrP8g1SMGgsMU3fGI8gyOklbRodVXEvhvbQ6jrKrs%3D&reserved= > > >> > 0 > > >> > 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> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fli > > sts.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Cto > > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Cf0bef211aac44912863108db2476ca75%7C5758544c5 > > 73f47cebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638143864868766928%7CUnknown%7CTWF > > pbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI > > 6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dxZ%2BZYJiwH9gvRV%2F292jkxmxjXIJrdSAPb > > 1e005mbKk%3D&reserved=0 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fli > > sts.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-users&data=05%7C01%7Cto > > ddz%40pgrahamdunn.com%7Cf0bef211aac44912863108db2476ca75%7C5758544c5 > > 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