I am quite a fan of Latour¹s formulation of expanded agency and Ingold¹s reading of the Deleuzian idea of becoming, where creation is located in the process of exchange that occurs at the moment the art work comes into being. This assumes that the art work only comes into being when it is received, not when it is produced (although these things can be the same thing they have to be the same thing) and that the work is to be found not in the artefact but in its exchange. The reader and writer only come into being at this moment too. In this view there is little reason to quibble over who did what. The reader and the writer are both implicated in the outcome. This was Derrida¹s point. I do not find this a dry proposition at all quite the opposite. It is a field of complex interplays that is rich in nuance, contradiction, conflict and synergy. Random is just another word for complex ;)
Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan <csu...@saic.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:56:46 -0600 To: Simon Biggs <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk> Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au> Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) Hi Simon, I agree that Patrick Smith is light in some ways, and to be honest, I show him in class as a classical animator making independent work. But it is interesting that you pick the one you do not like, as opposed to the one you did. Have not seen Michael Joaquin Grey, will check him out. I agree with your descriptions of narrative. For me it is not really that black and white. I still feel that some of the New Media Rules," Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity." implies that there is truth in chaos, and control is in some ways problematic. user activity often manifests itself as the narrative of the art opening, which is to me a pretty dry interface. I think that the idea of interactivity by an unblindfolded collaborator engaged in the content of the work, and on board with the works purpose, and someone with creative strengths, has a lot more potential than leaning towards, the unknowing, random outsider. I say this because the latter his been my most common model with interactive digital media. chris. Quoting Simon Biggs <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk>: > Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a stricter > definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-linearity I would call > complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative. Non-narrative > would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This could be > applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some sort of > logical development which can still be considered a narrative. > Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid access media, > heuristics, etc. Conventional animation is linear as it is a single data > stream that does not materially change. Non-linear animation would require > multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user > activity. This is what I make but I don¹t consider it animation, although it > uses many of its techniques. > > Did I like the work? I have been familiar with these makers for a long time. > I use to attend and present at Siggraph, back in the 1980¹s, along with > people like Duesing, Kawaguchi, Lasseter and others. My interest then was > not animation but experimental digital art. However, at that time if you > were into computers and creative practice then you tended to get tossed into > the same box, even if your creative intent was profoundly different. I > didn¹t warm to Patrick Smith¹s work it is conventional animation but with > a hint of street-cred thrown in, some Keith Haring and Jean Dubuffet. This > is evident in the paintings on his website too. Michael Joaquin Grey¹s work > is more to my taste. Some of it reminded me of the early Vasulka¹s. > > Best > > Simon > > > Simon Biggs > > s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice > http://www.elmcip.net/ > > > > From: christopher sullivan <csu...@saic.edu> > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:39:04 -0600 > To: soft_skinned_space <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>, Simon Biggs > <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk> > Cc: soft_skinned_space <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au> > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time > ago: interpreting datasets, etc) > > Hi Simon, perhaps there are degrees of narrative linearity, for me there > does > not have to be a literal audience manipulation, or chance operation to > create > experiments in narrative, it is done in literature all the time. > taking a film like Jim Duesings Tender bodies, or Nancy Andrews strange > work, > or lewis klahr, there is I think very interesting stuff going on. > did you like the work you saw? that is all that maters for me. Chris > > > Quoting Simon Biggs <s.bi...@eca.ac.uk>: > > > I think I am little confused about what non-linear means in this context. > I > > assume it to mean a time based artefact that can exist as a number of > > distinct material timelines. That is, the timeline bifurcates in various > > ways that allow the viewer to experience distinctly different aspects of > the > > work. In my experience there are only two ways to do this. One is to use a > > hypermedia approach, such as the World Wide Web is predicated upon, which > > allows you to select from multiple routes through a number of > possibilities. > > The other is to use generative techniques, where the viewer¹s interaction > > with the artefact causes it to re-author itself in real-time, the outcome > > most likely being a novel instance of the work that only that viewer will > > ever experience (this approach is more common in simulation based computer > > games). I have googled some of the names Chris suggested but so far as I > > could see they are making traditional linear animations. Am I missing > > something? > > > > Best > > > > Simon > > > > > > Simon Biggs > > > > s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk > > http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ > > Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ > > Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments > > http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ > > Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice > > http://www.elmcip.net/ > > > > > > > > From: Eileen Reynolds <eyelen...@hotmail.com> > > Reply-To: soft_skinned_space <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au> > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:02:57 -0700 > > To: <empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au>, <futurenatu...@blueyonder.co.uk> > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time > > ago: interpreting datasets, etc) > > > > Hi Chris. Thanks for the list of names. I had not heard of some who I > > really ought to have known. Rose bond. wonderful. Intra Muros is superb. > I > > recently attended the introduction master class given by Patrick Smith in > > Singapore and was impressed by Drink and Puppet. The transformation is > quite > > nice. True, there is an endless supply of animated non-linear shorts out > > there. > > > > > > Lately I've been absorbed in pre cinema tech and toys and also pixilation. > > In my opinion the visual power of such simple in camera effects can¹t be > > beat. Yay Melies. Yeah and the tilt shift time lapse you mentioned > the > > other day was another fine example of using limited technology, an older > > technique, but bringing it one step further into video and creating > > something fresh. Also I find that the use of physical space in the > process > > of animation is becoming more extravagant... as in stop motion in the > urban > > space (Muto by Blu), or staging larger productions like that sony bravia > > clay bunny commercial or more involved pixilations like the video Oren > Lavie > > - Her Morning Elegance. The physical act of creation comes to the > > forefront and in a way makes the animated short that much more impressive. > > Perhaps the use of space is a reaction against the world of CG animation, > > which can be quite sedentary. Or perhaps it's just fun. Some random and > > unrelated films/people I appreciate right now are Kihachiro Kawamoto, > Javan > > Ivey and his stratastencils, and Separation by Robert Morgan. Have a good > > day. Cheers. Eileen > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:05:06 -0600 > > > From: csu...@saic.edu > > > To: empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au; futurenatu...@blueyonder.co.uk > > > CC: empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au > > > Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long > time > > ago: > > interpreting datasets, etc) > > > > > > Hi Richard, there are plenty of non-linear narrative animations, not too > > many > > > feature ones, but then there are not all that many feature length > > animations. > > > here are a few animators, off the top of my head, and the Quay's as > well; > > janie > > > Gieser. Lewis Klahr, Nancu Andrews, me Chris Sullivan, Jim Trainor, > Simon > > > Pummel, Amy Kravitze, Karen Yasinsky, Lilli Carre, Patrick Smith, Don > > > Hertzfeld, Rose Bond, Joshua Mosely, Jim Duesing, Pritt Parn, Brent > Green, > > > Piotr Dumala, and check out the nice work funded by the organization, > > Animate > > > Projects, great british wonders. have a good night. Chris. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Richard Wright <futurenatu...@blueyonder.co.uk>: > > > > > > > I always liked the quality in the Quay films where time seems to lose > > > > all its reference points. Those shots of dust settling or shadows > > > > dancing where you are no longer sure whether you are watching in > > > > "realtime" or over the course of hundreds of years. > > > > > > > > This also made me wonder why certain kinds of narrative and time are > > > > almost never used in animation. For instance, why are there no non- > > > > linear narrative animations? They are not that uncommon in live > > > > action films - I am thinking of Memento that goes backwards in story > > > > time (with one b/w stream going forwards), Amores Perros that jumps > > > > repeatedly backwards and forwards, The Hours with its parallel > > > > storylines running in different historical times periods. The only > > > > example of an animated film that has anything like these kinds of > > > > narrative structure is Waltz with Bashir with its persistent > > > > flashbacks. And that was made by a live action director. > > > > > > > > I wonder if this has something to do with the way that animators > > > > work, concentrating as they do on building up a sequence of actions > > > > bit by bit, are they generally less directed towards the larger > > > > narrative structures of time? By focusing on the duration of the > > > > immediate event, is it as though they assume a sort of "short term > > > > memory"? > > > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > On 25 Feb 2010, at 03:34, T Goodeve wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone: > > > > > > > > > > Sorry I¹ve been so lax as a discussant-generator but here I am with > > > > > some thoughts and reflections. If it¹s okay just an aside first: > > > > > off the top of my fingertips<many of you make stuff you love and > > > > > live for, also write about with great passion, and the animated > > > > > worldscape is still and ever will be one of magic and wonder I hope > > > > > (you have the romantic here), i.e., endless visual and aural > > > > > reimagings via its ability, or definition, whether anlogue or > > > > > digital, to do anything and everything within and beyond the > > > > > spacetime continuum. But sometimes I miss the basic humor, wonder, > > > > > and sheer ³wow² of the simplicity of animation. I mentioned in a > > > > > post. The blank page and the dot. We lose track, myself included, > > > > > analyzing the life out of things sometimes and to do this with > > > > > animation seems particularly perverse. I realize I set myself up > > > > > for a bit of ridicule here but alas, someone has to speak up for > > > > > the puppet doll in Street of Crocodiles who cradles the bare light > > > > > bulb baby in its arm and brings it back to life with light, or the > > > > > frayed and earnest bunny who does his best to keep up with the > > > > > spinning demented ping pong balls and a pair of disembodied knee > > > > > socks and slippers moving up and down on tip toes in the Quays ³Are > > > > > We Still Married² <up and down, up and down. I think Christopher > > > > > Sullivan was trying to get at this but not everyone is out to do > > > > > what he does nor interested in the way I am or the Quays or for > > > > > that matter, those who use it for visualization, but depending on > > > > > why you do what you do we are here to discuss the breakthrough > > > > > insights of theory and technology and animation, but it¹s just > > > > > sometimes I¹ve felt we¹ve let the technology get away with doing > > > > > too much of the talking, not that it doesn¹t have a lot to say. > > > > > > > > > > But a more hardy, if overly general, topic is temporality and time, > > > > > now-time vs say the way cinema¹s capturing, sculpting, control of > > > > > time was such a huge part of its magic. Siegfried Kracauer describe > > > > > in an essay how powerful just ³having² the wind in the trees <a > > > > > moment< captured on film is for him. How different from one of my > > > > > students when I showed some film, perhaps Tarkovsky,² Why does he > > > > > keep leaving the camera on the trees so long?² Students of cinema > > > > > are different. We know this: ADD and short digitized attention > > > > > spans. But how do you see this in your worlds of animation either > > > > > in terms of resistance or something emerging that is part of this. > > > > > One thing I thought was very relevant was the post of the shift > > > > > tilt which is amazing and disturbing in this respect. Lots to say > > > > > about it: not only the time lapse but the way the world is > > > > > miniaturized. Here the real profilmic world is literally made into > > > > > an stop motion animated ³cartoon². One could talk about the Quays > > > > > work and time both in terms of period and affect; rhythm and > > > > > texture of their worlds (In Absentia, the film they made with > > > > > Stockhausen, is in some ways about light/time, metaphorically > > > > > written all at once over and over (the character n the film) hence > > > > > no time. Endless time. Speed of lightS .) But I do not know what > > > > > people have seen. I am more interested in hearing you all discuss > > > > > temporality and animation ³today²<both theoretically and examples. > > > > > These discussions are so energetic. They amaze me. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Thyrza > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:39 AM, christopher sullivan > > > > > <csu...@saic.edu> wrote: > > > > > Hi Richard, I am the guy that wants animations about love, hate, > > > > > birth, sex, and > > > > > death.(not necessarily in that order) > > > > > your rules of engagement leave me a little cold. why would this be > > > > > a goal? > > > > > > > > > > "greatest possible distance between > > > > > human senses and computer code that is achievable through the > > > > > simplest material means" > > > > > > > > > > what part of the human condition would make this a mandate? > > > > > why would this be effective, or rather effective at doing what? > > > > > I know I am being a little aggressive here, but this is coming from > > > > > someone who does not think Data means anything, nor does emulsion. > > > > > > > > > > chris. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christopher Sullivan > > > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media > > > School of the Art Institute of Chicago > > > 112 so michigan > > > Chicago Ill 60603 > > > csu...@saic.edu > > > 312-345-3802 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > empyre forum > > > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au > > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre > > > > > > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. > > <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > empyre forum > > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au > > http://www.subtle.net/empyre > > > > > > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number > > SC009201 > > > > > > > > > Christopher Sullivan > Dept. of Film/Video/New Media > School of the Art Institute of Chicago > 112 so michigan > Chicago Ill 60603 > csu...@saic.edu > 312-345-3802 > > > Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number > SC009201 > > > Christopher Sullivan Dept. of Film/Video/New Media School of the Art Institute of Chicago 112 so michigan Chicago Ill 60603 csu...@saic.edu 312-345-3802 Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number SC009201
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