Sam,

  The only type of credential that would have the issues you're
talking about is a long-term password used in PAP. Now I'm not
a big OPS guy but I do have quite a bit of experience in actual
deployments of 802.1X and EAP and I haven't seen them used anywhere.
If someone has a long-term password they're doing EAP-MSCHAPv2.
If someone's doing PAP they're using a token card or some type of
OTP. Are you worried about a AAA proxy hijacking a client's OTP
and impersonating it? To what effect? An fake billing? Can't this
proxy engage in fraud with the client's MSK as well? Are you worried
about a AAA proxy doing an off-line dictionary attack against MSCHAPv2?
I suggest you refrain from doing business with the company operating
it then because you have bigger issues.

  Just out of curiosity, though, how do you propose to prevent
a proxy from seeing an MS-CHAPv2 exchange or an OTP fly by? These
tunnel methods typically terminate in devices that are also AAA
clients, and that's because people want to do this sort of thing--
terminate the tunnel locally and then forward the client's credential
on to some central clearing house for a yea or nea. Do you want to
prohibit an "inner method" from terminating on a different entity
than the "outer (tunnel) method"?

  If the client's credential needs more protection than the MSK
then why are we bothering with the tunnel method work? If you have a
pre-shared key, code, phrase, or word use EAP-pwd; if you have a
certified public key use EAP-TLS. That protects the client's credential
and regardless of where it's terminated the MSK will be seen by
intermediate proxies but so what.

  Dan.

On Thu, June 24, 2010 11:56 am, Sam Hartman wrote:
>>>>>> "Dan" == Dan Harkins <[email protected]> writes:
>
>     Dan>   Hi Alan,
>
>     Dan> On Thu, June 24, 2010 5:20 am, Alan DeKok wrote:
>     >> Glen Zorn wrote:
>>> Alan DeKok [mailto:[email protected]] writes:
>     >>>> The requirement to keep authentication credentials private,
>     >>>> which is one of the reasons for choosing a TLS-based method in
>     >>>> the first place.
>     >>>
>     >>> Are you confused?  We're talking about being able to
>     >>> authenticate the visited network, not tunnel method
>     >>> requirements...
>     >>
>     >> Your proposal authenticates the visited network, at the cost of
>     >> exposing the users authentication credentials to the visited
>     >> network, and to everyone else in the proxy chain.  This fails the
>     >> privacy requirements of any TLS-based EAP method, and has nothing
>     >> at all to do with the tunnel method requirements.
>
>     Dan>   I may be missing something but the key shared by the client
>     Dan> and the NAS is going to be known by the proxies in that chain
>     Dan> so what sort of problem is being solved by applying these
>     Dan> privacy requirements to proxies?
> The MSK is a relatively short-term key.  The credentials that proxies
> may be able to attack are long-term credentials.
> So, I'm with Alan: the long-term credentials are more important than the
>     Dan> MSK.
>


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