Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:30:38 +1300 jochen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > >>David Seikel wrote: >> >>>When I made my E16 theme, I hacked the window menu for greater >>>usability, and it looks like I will have to do the same when I port my >>>theme to E17. In an effort to avoid menu hacking in a theme, I will go >>>over those changes and their reasons now. >>> >>>First of all is the position of the Close and Kill items. With my E16 >>>theme I found myself accidentally selecting Close, as the menu >>>starts with Close already under the mouse pointer. Traditionally, the >>>menu item that exits out of the application is at the bottom of the >>>menu, for a good reason. For languages that scan from top to bottom, >>>it makes sense that the last item you will ever select is the last item >>>on the list. To avoid accidentally exiting out of something that may >>>require some non trivial amount of work to setup again (things like, >>>you are half way through a big HTML form in your browser) it makes >>>sense to not make application exiting too easy. >>> >> >>Although I'm not a developer and atm things are made the way the >>developers like it I have to speak up now. I strongly disagree with >>this. I close almost all my apps with alt-right-click ->close, and I >>think that the close item is probably the menu item which is used most >>often. How many times are you going to change the remember settings or >>make a window sticky? I think the ordering of the menu should reflect > > > but there is a point of "put the options of least harm closest to an > accidental > activation". its a good idea imho - very good. u have to shuffle the mouse a > little more, but its still there. i havent added any dialog for kill - thouhg > for KILL its likely a good idea as that will KILL stuff off nastily. it is an > item of last resort > > >>how often you use a certain menu item. I think this kind of handholding >>goes strongly against the philosophy of keeping things simple and >>letting the user make the descisions. If I type rm -rf / I don't want to >>be asked are you sure, are you really sure... _REALLY_ are you sure! >>This is very annoying and it just makes things a lot less usable. >>Additionally when you close an application window, almost all apps will >>tell you that there are changes which haven't been saved and if you >>really want to quit. So the danger of loosing several hours of work is > > > true - also e does sport features to protect yourself from your own stupidity > - > window locks -> "protect this window from being accidentally closed becauset > it > is important" :) e will disallow the user to close the window - and inf act e > will refuse to EXIT until that window has gone away. the idea is that if you > have some insanely important thing going on in that window, you can protect it > from your own stupid mistakes. u have to go remove this lock to allow yourself > to close it. :) > > >>not even there yet, and if you really worked for several hours and did >>not save in between you deserve to loose your data. What is next? Alter >>the close button so you have to press it for several seconds, so you >>might not accidentally press it. Or everytime you stop or reboot your >>computer have a window pop up: "You are trying to shutdown your >>computer, you should do a backup before you do, are you sure you want to >>shutdown?" Sorry if I sound really harsh I don't mean this personal in > > > the menu is different as it pops up and peopel do accidentally hit the first > itme with a twitch of their mous and then go "what the fuck happened" as they > didnt SEE the close option - it all happened too fast. i have seen this a LOT > - > people with bad mouse/motor skills who clikc ANd move the mouse at the same > time then click again because they cant keep the butotn pressed and waver > between press/release. simply moving the harmful options further away > alleviates this. power users still have the option there. u can use keystrokes > (up arrow then return to activate the last item - in fact numbers 1-9 and then > 0 hilight the first 10 menu items), ctrl+alt+x, - the close butotn still is > there, etc. > > >>any way but I feel very strongly about this because I think this >>alterations for making apps more "userfriendly" are in 90% of the cases >>making apps harder to use for experienced users. > > > IF these options were lower down in the menu from the start i doubt we ever > would have head about this being bad for experienced users. basically i know > why you are complaingin - you have learnt/built certain unconscious "motor > operations" with your figners - and now u'll have to adjust or re-learn them. > and you dont want to. being a wm that is in cvs and not release - we do > reserve > the right to entirely change things around and such learnt habits will have to > adapt :) > Ah well I guess I have to learn to use ctrl-alt x instead, or just keep a little patch for the default theme which reverts the reordering. menu order is a theme thing isn't it? > personalyl i think re-ordering is for the better overall. > It's your baby so it's your decision although I still think it's the wrong one :), but you're probably right a significant part is the inconvenience it's causing me ;)
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