On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:28:38 -0400 Jose O Gonzalez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> > > On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:18:50 +0900 Carsten writes: > > On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 01:44:42 -0400 Jose O Gonzalez > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > > > > > Let me sharply critical here. > > > > > > Unfortunately for many other libs and apps, if evas is the > > > graphics engine they use, it's important to get it more than just > > > "good enough" -- as they will later find themselves stuck in the > > > situation where what was good enough earlier is not quite good > > > enough anymore.. What then? > > > > true. but given that i only have a few hrs a week to do this stuff. > > what do i > > work on? e is a priority. likely above evas in priority right now. > > > I know.. But it's not just evas I'm trying to point to here. > > > > There are general patterns here, going beyond anything to > > > do with evas in particular, that lead to such things recurring > > > again and again... hampering the potential growth and development > > > of "e" in the larger sense. > > > > a lot of them can be changed internally at this stage and > > hidden/wrapped by > > ecore_evas (ie if we move event handling to an explicit process > > call). so only > > those doing their own display target bindings are affected (very > > few). for > > smart objects i think we cna do this all internally with no api-side > > effects so > > we can do this at any time in the future :) i actually wouldnt mind > > getting > > right of the smart class creator that accepts like 10 args forall > > the methods, > > but instead use the one that accepts the smart as a struct - we can > > then expand > > that strucxt until the cows come home. it's alreayd there, just not > > used. > > > Ok. Let's talk about canvas/gfx specific issues a bit. > > Two key elements: rendering and event-handling. But how do > we deal with them and integrate them - what's the model? And what > can we 'use' to do this? > > We need an immediate-mode rendering engine.. let's get it > out of the canvas so it can be accessed itself. > This needs a variety of other things.. including things like > dealing with image loading, font loading, and others. It needs > file-handling routines, string-handling routines, caching mechanisms, > etc.. Where do they come from? > > We need a retained-mode canvas model.. What is it? There are > many 'canvases' one can have, as I pointed out to you in some emails.. > Which objects with what apis does one settle on? Why? > > Then, what is the event-model? And where does it come from? all of the above we already have - the only part you don't have is a broken out rendering model - notice there is an evas imaging api - that was the intended start of providing a virtualised immediate-mode api to whatever the engine provides so you can draw to a buffer object of some sort. > Sure we can "fix" smart-objects in evas.. But, why? What is > it that you really want that smart-objects gave you initially? smart objects started as "we want groups" ie move 1 object and they all move. that was too limited - so smart objects covered a whole range of things - including that. you define how that group moves, if moved, etc. etc. they start to become troublesome with things like edje, once they get very heavily used. for some things you want to define the drawing routine for the object and nothing else (thus the imaging api could be a set of tools for just that). > > > If "e" aims to be a "gui platform" of some sort, say eg. > > > a "desktop shell", then it needs to take a serious look at its > > > foundations.. its subsystems... > > > > indeed - if i had the time i'd be devoting it there. :) > > > That is where you are needed most man! i am needed everywhere :( i have an inbox that is perpetually overflowing with things to reply to :(. i have been trying to farm off work over the past year and drop almost everything that isn't within my direct view/focus. you might not realise that by the time i get home on a weeknight, and i do my email- i might find 1hr - on a good day, to do something. often it is spent going over other peoples stuff, testing, fixing, and answering questions on irc from other devs and users. my problem is that i just do not have time. this is a personal issue where there is a project that has grown so big and it's beyond management resources - but no one will step up to fix that. the solution isn't more people - more people is more cooks. more cooks with each having some half or quarter idea of what is actually happening just ends up a mess. we need more people who have fulltime to focus and devote to it. that of course requires money. someone to either hire them to do the work, or someone to drop a lot of cash somewhere to pay rents, mortgages, buy food etc. wherever i am needed most - i have only so much time to devote. i can devote 3 minutes to all the things that need me - then what? it will be enough time to start looking at them, nothing more. nothing will ever get done :( i appreciate your concerns - i really do, but i am not a student, i do not get paid to work on e at work - in fact, i cannot work on it. i do not even have network access to the "real world" while at work. i spend 10hrs a day with work - sometimes more. you have to realise that i really do have no time left. > > > It needs to build these, and build from these, in a > > > systematic and coherent manner... and it needs to support > > > and facilitate all the 'standards' that people expect to have > > > these days. > > > > > > Unless this is done, e will never scale much besides > > > constituting a handful of very nice special-purpose programs > > > like a window manager, a graphical terminal, a login manager, > > > ... programs that, sooner rather than later, 'others' will be > > > able to duplicate in "coolness", and do so within the context > > > of a much more comprehensive framework. > > > > agreed, but the programs si what peolpe seem to be wanting and > > pining for. > > personalyl me too. peoelp are waiting for them. wanting them. its a > > 2 way > > street. u cant go make a set of libs and never have anything USE > > them. i agree > > we need to do things. i woudl be doing them mystelf - but i don't > > have time. > > i'm hoping others can get a firm grip on what to do int he meantime > > until i > > come back to it. > > > They won't unless the 'core' e-developers come together > and discuss design decisions, aims, etc. And you need to lead > them there... in what time? that is the problem. i re-iterate the above :( > > > E will lead the way, in various gui related ideas, thanks > > > mostly to the tremendous creative talents and skill of a certain > > > nameless individual.. but it will never keep that lead for long, > > > or be able to capitalize on it. > > > > > > Jose. our problem is we are ambitious - with a lot of junior programmers and only a very few senior experienced ones. the senior ones almost all have "day jobs" that consume most of their time. the most useful thing users and other people could do right now to help is work on groundswell support to get the resources needed to push things along. that means maybe coming up with proposals to those who might fund things in a professional and sensible way. -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 裸好多 Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
