On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 00:36:15 +0000 Andrew F <andrewfriedman...@gmail.com> said:
> guys, these points are valid on both sides. > > I think one critical point that has not been looked at is what we want to > accomplish with E. > Obviously we want to encourage more developers. So why not help developers > get started with E. we have tried. jeremy answered early on. i didn't see a need to repeat it. i pointed to the docs we have. the issue is the docs are being rejected because of the users slow internet connection. it's rather annoying to be told that "you have no docs" or "your docs suck" when the docs that have had 1000's of man hours spent on are being rejected because of this. now i understand the problem of having a modem - mind you having to download and deal with efl over a modem must be hell in and of itself. :) but there are solutions: make doc you can make docs locally and have all the html - grep/search it there yourself. you can still use google. a modem doesn't stop that. it may be slower, but it works and still is vastly faster than printed paper. i do remember the days of being on a 28.8k modem. it worked and i would use altavista at the time to search for documentation on the web... it was not impossible. > We could answer their questions directly and provide a source in the docs > if we have know it. That would be the best of both points of view. > We could also give some narrative as to some key concepts around the > topic. If we can help developers get rolling with E, then > they will have the momentum to carry on without ongoing assistance. > > But initially, lets help them get up to speed. > > Robert is taking on a big challenge, lets not brush him off or suggest to a > veteran of 20+ years how he should learn.. or how he > should read docs. I think he knows what he is best for him. by the same token - brushing off the effort already made as above is even worse. someone has ALREADY invested, 100's or even 1000's of hours of their time on documentation just because the consumer will not use all the documentation already made available. > Lets give detailed assistance and give a reference in the docs if its > available and known, and if you want brownie points, offer > some narrative to tie it all together if appropriate. > > Thats the way I see it. > > I do appreciate all the time and comments on this thread. Clearly this is > a strong group of > programmers that are passionate about the technology and E. > > Andrew > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote: > > > At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 23:36:23 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) < > > ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:57:49 -0400 Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> > > said: > > > > > > > At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 20:58:03 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) > > > > <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 07:48:23 -0400 Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> > > said: > > > > > > > > > > > At Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:22:57 +0900 Enlightenment developer list > > > > > > <enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:17:32 -0400 Jose Gonzalez < > > jose_...@juno.com> > > > > > > > said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carsten wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 05:57:59 -0400 Jose Gonzalez < > > jose_...@juno.com> > > > > > > > > > said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Carsten wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>> On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:40:42 +0000 Andrew F > > > > > > > > >>> <andrewfriedman...@gmail.com> said: > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>>> Hey guys, can someone point me to documentation that > > explains > > > > > > > > >>>> what a swallow is? > > > > > > > > >>>> and how its used. > > > > > > > > >>>> thanks > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>> swallow the name is something i adopted from fvwm2 days - > > it had > > > > > > > > >>> swallow stuff... and swallows in edje are the same thing > > > > > > > > >>> basically - just with objects. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> didn't you see my link to the swallow docs? > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > https://build.enlightenment.org/job/nightly_efl_gcc_x86_64/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/doc/html/group__Edje__Part__Swallow.html#ga97d1419f89bff20ba971e47c78641271 > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> its there in the efl online docs (thats the latest auto > > nightly > > > > > > > > >>> doc build). > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >> Good lord man, yes that's a nice bit of history but do > > you now > > > > > > > > >> want him to look up fwm2's docs as well! :) > > > > > > > > >> Also, I can't even access that link you gave... And > > where is > > > > > > > > >> the old pdf that had edje documentation (the edje cookbook > > or > > > > > > > > >> something)? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Anyway, why not give a simple explanation of the thing > > rather > > > > > > > > >> than beat around the bush... Something short but to the > > heart of > > > > > > > > >> the matter, like say: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because of the comments that "efl has no docs so its > > impossible to > > > > > > > > > use - this is undocumented anywhere". give a man a fish - > > you feed > > > > > > > > > him for a day. teach a man to fish and you feed him for a > > lifetime. > > > > > > > > > i'm pointing to the docs so he can keep looking around and > > refer > > > > > > > > > to them for more questions etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That works both ways. People who ask questions aren't > > necessarily > > > > > > > > idiots and maybe efl devs can benefit from a bit more practice > > in > > > > > > > > directly and concisely answering their questions - that way > > not only > > > > > > > > do they address the particular issue at hand but also maybe > > find it > > > > > > > > easier to write clear documentation as they go along writing > > code.... > > > > > > > > and even then, no single wording will ever be clear to > > everyone. > > > > > > > > Remember another cliche: If a thing is truly clear then no > > > > > > > > explanation is ever needed. And if it's not, then it's worth > > > > > > > > explaining again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > given this thread... it appears the original poster/question > > never even > > > > > > > found yhe docs hat are there at all, so pointing to them is the > > firs > > > > > > > port of call imho. if THEY do not suffice - then that is a > > different > > > > > > > matter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The docs did not suffice. The explaination below is more than > > anything I > > > > > > founf in the docs. > > > > > > > > > > but we never even got to that point until now - the docs did tell > > you what a > > > > > swallow is... that the parent takes control of geometry etc. that > > api says > > > > > that. :) > > > > > > > > The only thing in the PDF doc were a couple of *examples* and no real > > > > explaination of what it all *means*. The examples alone is not enough > > (for > > > > me). There wasn't any API docs in the PDF at all. I did: > > > > > > > > make doc > > > > cd doc > > > > make refman.pdf > > > > xpdf refman.pdf > > > > > > > > I *expected* some sort of useful explaination, but it was not there. > > > > > > > > I thought that my original message was clear that I found the docs I > > found > > > > were not useful. > > > > > > the docs i pointed to - the html ones that we actually look at once we > > write > > > docs, and put on line did explain. we DONT put pdf docs online. we don't > > look > > > at them or check. i know there are issues with doxygen +latex and thus > > the pdf > > > stuff wont work right. > > > > > > putting "edje swallow" into google for me brings up a lot of refs.. #3 > > is the > > > page with the api ref that tells you what a swallow is. > > > > > > my point here is - you do not like/want to use html docs. you must have > > pdf > > > ones printed. alas that doesn't work with doxygen and there is a lot of > > work > > > > It *DOES* work with doxygen -- I do it all the time with *my* code (see: > > http://www.deepsoft.com/modelrailroadsystem/). > > > > > for us to do. :) after all the effort to document things etc. and all > > this > > > discussion on how bad the docs are, this kind of mail doesn't encourage > > docs > > > to be worked on if they are not used. :( it's a lot of work to write > > them. it's > > > a sheer wast of time to write docs that are not used when they are > > plainly > > > available, trivially searchable etc. etc. :( yes - i know they can be > > better, > > > but i really ask as kindly as i can - use the docs we have already. if > > your > > > preferred way to read docs is to print them out then... read - you'll > > find it > > > basically impossible. search tools - be they grep or google are going ot > > get > > > you the info you want 100 times faster. > > > > Actually not with dial-up Internet... (Yes, really, I have dial-up > > Internet, > > not by choice, but because it is all that is available where I live and > > work.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> An edje object is a particular kind of container evas > > object > > > > > > > > >> (also called evas smart objects). In the edc description, > > an edje > > > > > > > > >> object is defined as a 'group'. > > > > > > > > >> As a container object, it has child objects and these > > are > > > > > > > > >> declared in the edc as various kinds of 'parts' within that > > group. > > > > > > > > >> There are parts like 'rectangle' and 'image', for example, > > which > > > > > > > > >> are of known type. But an edje can also have child evas > > objs of > > > > > > > > >> any sort by declaring 'swallow' parts in its edc. The > > 'swallow' > > > > > > > > >> C-api is what then enables you to programatically add an > > arbitrary > > > > > > > > >> evas object (that you've obtained somehow) as a child of > > the edje > > > > > > > > >> so as to 'fill' whatever declared swallow part. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> ............ > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Now, where's that iMenu? And E shell-skinning? And > > improved > > > > > > > > >> Exchange server? And ...... :) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Do THIS before eating carbs (every time) > > > > > > > > 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & > > decrease fat > > > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/52749964d20e3195d1a40st02duc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development > > platform > > > > > > > > that developers love is also attractive to malware creators. > > Download > > > > > > > > this white paper to learn more about secure code signing > > practices > > > > > > > > that can help keep Android apps secure. > > > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com > > > > > > Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ > > > > > > () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail > > > > > > /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development > > platform > > > > > > that developers love is also attractive to malware creators. > > Download > > > > > > this white paper to learn more about secure code signing practices > > that > > > > > > can help keep Android apps secure. > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com > > > > Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ > > > > () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail > > > > /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com > > Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/ > > () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail > > /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that > > developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white > > paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep > > Android apps secure. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that > developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white > paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep > Android apps secure. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep Android apps secure. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
