On Sat, 6 May 2017 10:48:10 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > > re-read what i wrote. i have explained that you don't and that how > knowing leads to a poor selection dialog.
Having the current font being used highlighted/selected for the user leads to a poor selection dialog? Based on that, pretty much every one that exists is incorrect now. Seems the majority disagrees and goes a different direction. > then how do i select "i just want the default" as opposed to windings? By not setting a custom font in the first place. Or checking use default font. Which functions like the Settings -> Font, Custom Font Class. When you uncheck that. It unsets your font and reverts back to theme/default. > the proper experience is to display the actual thing selected. either > windings OR "just give me the default - whatever that is". That is what I am talking about and trying to do. But I cannot select a font in the list if I do not know the name of the one being used. > you propose to drop one of these and not make it possible to select > that. it's a worse experience. it's one less option to select for the > user that is distinctly different. No, I am saying right now. It seems impossible to get the current font name used. So if I have a list of font names. I cannot highlight/select the current font. Terminology has the function I am talking about. But it does it by hard coded font names. Starts with DejavuSans, etc. It is doing that in a different way though. But if that name was not hard coded. I am not sure it could be selected in list as the current/default font. > believe whatever you want to believe. i can't stop you. you > demonstrate no way in which it is sub par. you just want to make > statements to support what you want to do because it's the only way > you know. Just saying if you are unable to fetch font names. More so if its a font embedded into a theme. That does not seem like an ideal design. It is not the only way I know. I am used to obtaining font names in a variety of different ways. I am not used to not being able to obtain a current font name at all via any means. That is new, and yes I am not used to that. Not sure many are. > eh? terminology does its own terminal display. it doesn't use widgets > or an abstraction. that code is simply for selecting a default font > to use and it has nothing to do with widgets. elementary has no > concept of a monospace terminal widget thus it has no concept of such > a font. Yeah but it has similar function to what I was after. When you go to the font settings in Terminology. It has the current font used selected, DejaVu Sans. But it does it via different means. https://git.enlightenment.org/apps/terminology.git/tree/src/bin/config.c#n402 > i explained how to do it. add entry "default font". done. it's an > option you would normally just never have at all and thus deprive the > user of that option. I can already reset back to default. I cannot provide a list of fonts to the user, and have the current font selected. Like is done in Terminology. IMHO, just like other font dialogs, and like Terminologys having DejaVu Sans selected in the list. Which is not the first font in the list, etc. The system one should also show that. But seems it cannot. Everything I am talking about also applies to the system Settings -> Font dialog. When I check use custom font. It should already have the current selected. In my case the theme is set to Noto Sans. But when I go to use Custom Font Class, nothing is set. I can set it to Noto Sans with no change, and unset it just the same. Not sure that matters though. Just like with windings thing. > ugh no. when "default font" is selected DELETE YOUR OVERLAY. i've > said this several times. I get that. But as I keep saying. It does not do anything to resolve the issue of. I have a list of fonts. Select the active/current font by name. General font dialog function. > if (selected_item == default_font) > elm_config_whatever_overlay_remove("xxx"); > > the complexity of a single line. (ok 1 more line to add the "fake" > default font item) your way this possibility never even exists for a > user. they must always explicitly choose some font. Again that would not make sense to have Default Font Noto Sans Given Noto Sans is the default in my case. Having Default Font selected would be wrong. Then when they select Noto Sans and it does nothing... Then they click on Default Font and it does nothing... I do not see how that would be clear to the user what is going on. > what? it's actually fantastic. a theme designer can ship a font I was not suggesting embedding a font is bad. That is pretty cool theming wise. Just saying not being able to obtain the font name does not seem like a good idea. > you need to stand back and re-evaluate your preconceptions. i notice > you have them and your above statement tells me all i need to know. > you refuse to even see that this is far far better. you are totally > stuck in "everyone does it this way thus that is the only and right > way". the above tells me all i need to know. All I am saying is everyone makes the font name available. I really fail to see why making it available is such a big deal. > http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe > > i'm smelling this. From my perspective the same can be said in reverse. > you don't NEED to get the info as it's private to that theme. Bit ironic in open source to keep something private and tell others you do not need access to it. Maybe be receptive to, why not just give access. Who cares if there is need or not. I fail to see why it is such a big deal to HIDE the font name and make it inaccessible. > > Are you looking at this from the application development point of > > view? It is just making things HARDER not EASIER for others. > > yes i am. i wrote terminology. i wrote rage. i wrote enlightenment. i > made decisions for efl based DIRECTLY from what i need from writing > apps. You coded in expected font behavior in terminology with having the current font selected. > because it doesn't come with a major desktop. why is fltk so rare? I digress. Pantheon is maybe one of the newest Desktop Env. Note the list of all the apps specific to that env. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_OS#Pantheon What makes one mobile os more popular than another? Usually the availability of apps in the app store. Same applies to desktop envs. > beyond providing cross-platform ala qt it's almost never seen too. > it's network effect issue. if everyone is doing x then more people do > x too. or herd mentality or "well i'll use tolkit x so my app fits > into desktop y". The more I see the stuff in E for Windows and OS X. It makes me ask the question even more. Why is more stuff not coded in EFL? It seems superior in ways for cross platform. Maybe go back to that link you provided above. > yes. and doing a scene graph for those used to "draw line, raw box, > paint rectangle" is also a pain... until they finally realize all the > benefits far outweigh the pain. i've spent years dealing with just > this friction... and now everyone is getting on the bandwagon as it's > finally sunk in... Not knocking you or anything personal. Just wanting to see wider adoption of superior quality software. I think many things are taken the wrong way. > being different is a core part of who i am and what i do. conforming > is something i do just by coincidence - it happened to be the best > way. I am quite similar. I am not saying totally confirm. I am just saying certain things users tend to be familiar with and make sense are good. On the other hand, things application developers are used to having access to, information wise. Is also good to provide. That is all the being like others I was talking about. I have always been in the custom software business for a reason. Tons of boxed stuff. > you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. you're jumping up and > down over "but i cant get the current font" where you INSIST on > making a fon selection dialog display the current font Only because that is what users are most familiar with. I do not see how not having anything selected is a better option. It provides the user less information. > even if it's > unaddressable (embedded in an edj file). it's not a pita as you say. > you're now coming up with this. you've spent 100x the effort in email > vs code when you want to do a font seldction dialog... ALL you need > to do is: If I had access to the font name. This thread would not exist, you would not be wasting your time nor I. Why in open source anyone would hide or make information not available is interesting. Always thought open source was about more information not less. > 1. add "default font" entry. > 2. if default font entry selected then remove config value in overlay. > > OR > > 1. provide checkbox > 2. i checkbox disabled - remove overlay and disable font selection > widget, otherwise enable font selection widget OR do what some other things do and do not give the user any sort of ability to change font. Just by pass the entire problem entirely. It is not me I care about. It is the end user experience. I will never change the font myself... This entire effort is for OTHERS not me... > that is not a major pita when doing a font selector. it's maybe 1 or > 2% o the code. at least a decent selector that provides previews etc. > of the font etc. Those are next steps etc. But given how the font stuff is not sure I will bother or push customizing the font much if at all. I know users will report issues. > by design you are not meant to know. i've explained why. I think that is wrong. Why hide the information? What harm does it do to make the font name available? > i dot make apps in efl. i've made more than you have for a much much > much longer time. Possibly, but how do you know what I have and have not made? Most of my Java GUI and other stuff is not public but private for businesses. We are about the same age FYI. > > Why are there not more things coded in EFL? > > explained above. I have a different perspective having been a long time fan of E. I mentioned most of this to you when I first came across you in IRC. Going back to LWE 2006, when a guy from open solaris came over to talk to spanky/vapier about E contributions etc. Yet over a decade later.... > the vibe i get from you is "do it my way and provide my feature or > i'll just criticize you for being closed minded and niche and because > you don't see the greatness is just doing it the way everyone else > does you must be dumb and not want users". Alas I have no way. My concern is not for myself. I do not mess with custom fonts. I can set that other ways, like a custom theme etc... I am doing this for others, and getting allot of resistance. Funny you are saying I am closed minded. You seem stuck on a single approach. Hiding font names period. Why? Who knows. > i've explained why exposing hat the font is is not a good thing. it > leads to ui and options for users that mean they cannot make a choice > between 2 distinct things and also it means you have problems once a > theme starts embedding fonts as they ae not addressable from the > outside (well actually they are if you happen to know edje's private > naming scheme for its internal data ... but by exposing such a scheme > we can't then change it internally in the future which actually i > think we need to for other reasons). What you say is bad, is what the rest of the world does. Going back to your link and saying not being open minded. Seems its your way or no way. I am not that way. If someone wants to do something differently than me I welcome that. If I can help them with their version great. I am all about choice. Not choosing for others. Not forcing them to do things one way or another. > you fail to understand the first reason entirely AND the second you > dismiss as "bad bad bad" without a second thought. I cannot conceive any reason why one would want to hide a font name from users or developers. That I am not sure I will ever understand. > i'm thinking the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim. i am utterly > ignoring elm_code as i know right now it's "special" and unstable and > it doesn't conform to the rest of elementary. That sounds pretty intolerant. Isn't part of the whole idea of open source to allow people to do things differently. > i'm explaining how the > rest of elementary works and chooses fonts (hint - it doesn't choose > fonts - it has no clue and doesn't care and doesn't need to know. it > only provides a standardized config for overriding a heme chosen font > via name) I hope you are receptive to the feedback. Such design; while a feature and maybe superior, can be a MAJOR hindrance. > that's a technical detail to do with choosing Sans. i'm taking > another step back and saying that even that is not the issue as if a > theme said "use sans" or "use this theme i have embedded that looks > like someone hammered away at a piece of rock" is not a choice > elementary is even making. it's a choice a theme designer makes and > that MAY provide you with the ability to override. Lets step back. How may unique themes are there? Any that are not based at all off the default theme? > the text in the > label of a button may be made up of multiple text elements overlayed > or otherwise placed and styled to look a certain way and may use > multiple fonts to do so. how is private to the theme design. it > provides huge freedom to the theme designer as a result. on the flip > side it restricts the programmer more as it's taking controls/power > and moved them somewhere else. there is the ability to override by > symbolic name... a theme may or may not allow it depending on > designer. it probably should try to make it possible though. I do not see the designing aspect begin easier for designers. Making things harder for programmers just the same is likely not a good idea. You would likely need a very technical designer to be able to do a theme. I mean there are even GUI to help with such. Yet still there is only the default theme. No other not based on it. > i've explained the problems with this and you have yet to understand > the problem. Understand or not, it does not lead to a good end user experience. > why on earth does every app need a font selection dialog? Most do not, unless it is one that deals with multi-line text entry. Most apps that have such allow for font overrides to give users choice and make for a better end user experience. > terminology > only has it because it does its own thing. there is a system config > tool (it's bad actually and needs to be written properly - it was > more a demo and test tool than a final tool). wouldn't it be normal > 90% o the time to say "i want all my text entries to use font X" and > thus they all now are consistent? there are some needs for font > selectors. inkscape, gimp, office tools where you are selecting the > font for the "document" you are editing. but it's a design tool then. > otherwise it'd be pretty rare to need one. No worries. I just saw the same function in terminology. Would have been less code and easier for you to not have a font selected in the dialog. But one is :) -- William L. Thomson Jr.
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