1st things first...
I'm thinking I owe you all an apology for spouting so rashly!
I certainly didn't mean to offend. I do feel strongly about the
keyboard/vs/mouse thing because I have difficulty with the mouse.
But I regret my choice of words.
Please accept my apology, at least enough to read my comments below
before you make up your minds...
It would appear that on Oct 1, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri did say:
> no need to write such a huge mail... it's being removed for good. But
> functionality is not going away, nice guys are working on dbus-based
> replacement, to be loaded as optional module (so those like you can
> load and be happy).
> the replacement provides a shell script around dbus-send and accepts
> the same parameters as enlightenment_remote
If you look at my sig, the part that says "(theWordy)" is there for a
reason. I've always had a problem with brevity...
I was unaware of any dbus-based replacement for the functionality of
e-remote. If I had heard of it, I'd instead have been posting a
request for more info about the replacement... Now that I have heard
of it I shall be asking about it. But not in this message. My purpose
at the moment is to apologies for almost everything EXCEPT the "size"
of my original post.
It would appear that on Oct 1, Carsten Haitzler did say:
> indeed. if you want more configurability - we've made it possible via modules.
> you can extend e any way you like without patching its source. modules can
> expose any part of e you want as dbus remote calls. there are gui and cmd-line
> dbus tools to access methods, browse them and call them (as gustavo said -
> dbus-send, there's d-feet as a python gui to explore dbus and see whats
> there).
I hadn't heard of either dbus-send, nor d-feet before I spouted. When
I first read your reply I opened a root shell on my Sabayon 4.2
installation and did entropy and portage searches for them...
I found nothing for dbus-send, but there was an available d-feet which
I immediately installed so that I could find out what it does...
One thing it won't do is give me a clue how to use dbus-send (if I even
had it) to do things like turning edge flipping off, and removing all
default key & mouse bindings, replacing them with the ones I actually use.
> as for making e more kbd friendly - patches accepted. it's a lot of WORK
> making
> something work well with the kbd and mouse. its EXTRA work. you're going to
> have to help and provide patches and code. the priority is to make e usable
> even for those who haven;'t seen a cmd-line before. it doesnt have to be
> perfect, but usable. that means primary focus is in the gui. gui config.
> everything gui. frankly its easier for ME (developer of e) to use the
> gui than cmd-line.
Well that explains why there doesn't seem to be many kbd friendly desktops out
there. But just to clarify, I care about using the kbd itself a lot
more than I care about doing it on the cmd-line... But I suppose it's
also extra work to make the gui kbd friendly... <sigh>
> i prefer it. so you'll see a gui long before you see help in obscure
> ipc tools. the ipc tool and the handelrs are an awful nightmare of code that
> we
> just dont want to maintain. hell - it ISNT maintained. it has segv bugs in
> there. no new config items have been added to e_remote for years. it's already
> quite incomplete. its effectively dead weight floating about we really just
> dont want on our hands anymore. it's not a primary focus....
Well I guess if it's that much of a nightmare to work with, I guess I
can understand why it's gotta go.
> but we haven't made it impossible. we have had demo dbus extension modules now
> for years showing how to extend configuration via dbus. dbus has been used now
> for years. it's fairly mature. we can now farm off the extra work we DONT want
> to do (e_remote) to dbus and moduels supplied by the people who really care
> about such access. if you REALLY must have it... then get up and write a
> module
> to expose what you need. dbus is usable from the cmd-line. you can happily
> explore all of e's dbus api via something like d-feet. you can call methods
> from here too. e-dbus provides all the introspection apis of dbus needed for
> this to work. we've handed the work over to those that really care about it
> and
> taken it off the plates of those who don't. thats how good software
> development
> works.
> as for the future. core e provides dbus methods just enough to control the
> core. nothing more. it's enough dbus api there to load a module - via dbus,
> enable it via dbus, and have this module then extend e's dbus api more. it's
> enough to bootstrap entirely via dbus and dbus-send (if u are willing to write
> or help write or find a module to extend 's dbus api).
Well I guess I've been to busy just using e17 as it is/was (I'm not
even a programmer. {unless you count bash scripting} So I rely on what
I can get via the various package management systems of the linux
distros I've got installed. I'm afraid I don't have many of the skills
needed to be of much help. Heck if it wasn't for ppurka's e17_setup.sh
script I probably wouldn't have figured out how to use what little of
enlightenment_remotes capabilities as I have.
> as for seeing the widget focused with tab in windows.. thats simply a theme
> matter. adding a "focused" state. to be honest.. it just is a painful luimp of
> extra work to add it to every single widget in the theme and i didn't bother
> doing it. it also makes it look less nice. right now i'm just not bothering as
> it's a low priority matter, but its all entirely up to the theme. the code is
> there.
I had a bad experience with alternate themes... I've stuck with the
default theme ever since. But I suppose I'll have to try some more of
them. Maybe I'll find one that was written by someone that likes to
navigate the gui with a kbd...
It would appear that on Oct 1, Michael Jennings did say:
> Stop whining. E is free. If you were paying for it, you might have a
> right to get mad, but you're not, and you don't. So stop being a
> crybaby and do something about it. You have 3 choices: Suck it up
> and deal, pay someone to make whatever additions/modifications/
> changes/reverts you wish, or contribute something yourself.
OK so I WAS whining. But there is a difference between getting mad
and getting depressed. Unfortunately getting depressed by suddenly
finding out a favorite tool I depend on is toast. cause me to be
cranky about it. Lacking the skill to code the changes I'd like, and
also lacking sufficient funds to pay for such custom coding, I guess
I'll have to just deal with it...
> Nothing pisses off open source authors more than users who think
> they're entitled to something simply because they do us the honor of
> using our software.
Pardon me. I chose my words poorly. I'm sorry if in doing so I have
offended you, and/or any other "open source authors" Incidentally
though I NEVER said I was entitled. I spoke out of frustration. and
perhaps a bit of fear. Since I lack the skill to make my own flavor of
it. And I suddenly realized just how fragile was the circumstances that
caused E17 to be so kbd friendly as to make me care about it.
I have been using Enlightenment almost exclusively, in one form or
another ever since I discovered it (shortly after Kubuntu Intrepid forced
me to look at what was happening to KDE) I have also suggested it to
others as the best choice I'd found for a keyboard friendly replacement
to KDE.
It would appear that on Oct 1, Ralf Mardorf did say:
> Hi Michael :)
>
> your note is fair, but anyway I guess you misunderstood him. OTOH don't
> speak for all FLOSS coders. Some do like to get feedback, also negative
> feedback, that's why there are a lot of very good WMs/ DEs for Linux.
> It's absolutely okay that every argument to change something is
> appeased. E17 is from you coders for you coders, but not for users with
> special needs. I've got e17 from svn installed because I liked it some
> years ago, when it was too unstable. Today I'm missing to much, so I'll
> watch the development, but I don't use it or would recommend to use it,
> especially because you coders don't like tips from users. Don't get me
> wrong, I accepted it, anyway I guess it's not clever to ignore users for
> your own progress ;).
>
> Just my 2 cents, no stuff for a flame ;).
It would appear that on Oct 1, Michael Jennings did say:
> There's a big difference between "one who offers constructive
> criticism" and "whiny little bitch." Had the referenced e-mail been
> more of an inquiry or a suggestion, the responses would have been
> quite different (though what Gustavo said would still have been the
> bottom line -- it's being replaced by a dbus-based tool which will
> have largely equivalent functionality eventually). But that's not
> what happened.
Again, I apologize for spouting. Had I more wisdom I might have
realized I was tired and in a cranky mood when I suddenly learned
something I guess you all knew for a long time. I will say in my own
defense though that it had been my intention to review my words in the
morning (which I'd like to think would have led to at least some
revision, if for no other reason than I would wanted to inquire more
clearly of the questions that some of you have somehow seen my need to
hear about anyway...) So I had suspended the email to my postponed
folder and finished reading my mail. By the time I got to the end of
my mail, I had a half dozen postponed messages. And I was then so
tired that I stupidly sent them all off without such review.
In particular I would like to apologize for my choice of words when
I used the words "Who do I gotta kill" rather than a less volatile
expression such as "What do I gotta do". Especially since this was
before I inserted a hint "[rant-mode]" that some of what I was spouting
was just that, "spouting"... Though in retrospect I doubt that
expression would have much been better received within the portion so
labeled
> Most authors, myself included, are thrilled to pieces when others find
> their software useful enough to use it. That's why we do what we do.
> But that doesn't mean it's okay to chew out an author because he does
> something you don't agree with with software that HE wrote and that HE
> gave away for free despite the massive amount of hours that went into
> it.
When your right... I didn't think I was "chewing out" the authors. But
having reviewed what I wrote I can see why it might be taken that way.
> > It's absolutely okay that every argument to change something is
> > appeased. E17 is from you coders for you coders, but not for users
> > with special needs. I've got e17 from svn installed because I liked
> > it some years ago, when it was too unstable. Today I'm missing to
> > much, so I'll watch the development, but I don't use it or would
> > recommend to use it, especially because you coders don't like tips
> > from users. Don't get me wrong, I accepted it, anyway I guess it's
> > not clever to ignore users for your own progress ;).
>
> Nobody's ignoring anybody, and user feedback is important. But
> there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. He chose poorly.
Yes I chose poorly. If you will forgive me I'll try to choose more
wisely next time.
It would appear that on Oct 2, Ralf Mardorf did say:
> IMO e17 isn't user friendly because the e17 coders expect to much
> knowledge from the users and even users with knowledge sometimes don't
> like to spend too much time to set up a DE. E17 is very particular about
> this. Just my impression. I guess his tone of voice was over the
> shoulder, but not bad. Again just my impression.
>
> Cheers,
> Ralf
>
It would appear that on Oct 2, Carsten Haitzler did say:
> how does e17 "expect too much knowledge from the user". it expects very
> little.
> of course if u are compiling it yourself we expect u to have the requisite
> knowledge of a developer who compiles things all the time. but other than that
> it does kind of handhold you a lot. from the first time it starts it asks a
> few simple questions and has you set up and running. i don't see how it
> requires a lot of knowledge to use e17 effectively.
Knowledge, no. Sufficient manual dexterity to use the mouse effectively maybe.
> ...
>
> <rant>
> <!-- do not read this if you are easily offended. i warned you. -->
<<<<SNIP>>>>
> </rant>
You obviously have more wisdom than I. I do wish I had marked my
rantings with something like that, umm html comment....
As it happens I think highly of E17. I might not share the same vision
of how it should look and feel as any of it's developers. But it has
served my needs as well as kde ever did. It sure starts up, and shuts
down a lot faster. And once I've managed to get a few things like my
keybindings in place, I find I like the way it works better than I ever
liked kde3.
I'm sorry I spoke so poorly.
Well that's that I guess. Either some of you will forgive me, and
perhaps reply when I ask for more info about that replacement for
e-remote that I hadn't heard about before, or you won't, and I'll be
so thoroughly 'ploinked' that I'll have to hope somebody else asks...
| ~~~ ~~~
| <O> <O> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ___ <<jtw...@ttlc.net>>
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