Sounds good- and you're right, there's little if any such info-data- models of the growth of trees into real biological maturity, not the phony, poorly thought out "financial maturity" which is a small percentage of the full life span for most species. Any current suggestion that trees ought to be left to grow to great size/age- either in reserves or for economic value can't be convincing until we have solid scientific research.
As I've suggested in the past, it's time for all of us to come up with real numbers for all the "intangible values" of trees and forests. Thus, even for trees/forests which when timber values peak out- the other values are still growing, maybe even faster. Without coming up with a value system for all the values, the battle is lost. The discussion on the creation of those non market values must commence. Joe On Sep 26, 5:37 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Joe, > > I have no doubt that methods such as those you suggest could be > developed, and perhaps some are as we speak. However, their widespread field > employment would require a source of money that I currently don't have the > slightest access to. But for our contribution, maybe if we continue to beat > the drum long enough, university researchers with the financial wherewithall > will take notice and become interested. You'd think that state forestry > departments would be interested, but so far that hasn't happened in the > Northeast. I'm not entirely sure about the Pacific Northwest, but do believe > that BVP has a pretty good working relationship with state of Washington > folks. > I see lots of ENTS work as up-front development in nature. I often > think of us as the low cost vanguard to what may be extensive research later. > The most practical application of our volume and individual dimensional > analysis is likely to be the establishment of time-based growth curves, that > express the natural capabilites of a number of species. The curves could act > as baselines to provide managers with a better understanding of how the > species they select to manage would behave over time if left unmanaged. I do > realize that this information is supposed to be out there, but in truth I see > little evidence that very many forest managers truely grasp what a specific > site can be expected to produce over a time span of 150 years. I would not > argue with their short-term undertsanding, but I think most of them have lost > sight of the longer growth cycles, if they actually ever had an > understanding. I could give dozens of examples, but am not making the point > to criticize the peopl > e out there now. You and a few others like Russ Richardson seem to have a > good appreciation for what is possible, but over all, it appears to be a > diminishing talent. The breadth of vision seems to be shrinking proportional > to the shrinking of the average size of the species and processing equipment. > > If we continue to gather data, the ENTS databases will eventually allow > the likes of Drs. Lee Frelich, Don Bragg, Tom Diggins, and perhaps a few > others to establish statistically validated maximum growth-volume curves for > a wide range of latitudes, longitudes, altitudes, and average levels of > precipitation. For the present, that is where we're headed, but I think I'd > like to pursue research in the direction you suggest with a couple of > university contacts. > > Bob > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: the Forestmeister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Hey Bob, I know next to nothing about the sophisticated methods ENTS > > people use to determine tree volumes- I only know standard, basic, > > simple methods of tree measurements used by field foresters. But, I > > should think that there must be some way using the best technology in > > the world today to get an exact 3 dimensional image of any tree- using > > something like radar or some other electromagnetic radiation- by > > moving the energy generator AROUND the tree- sort of like a giant scan > > of a hospital patient. > > > The scan could scan the shape to great detail in 3-D, then incorporate > > that into data into a holograph in order to project it- and I'm sure > > mathematical geniuses could easily then use that data to calculate the > > volume of the tree to an order of accuracy orders of magnitude beyond > > current ENTS methods. > > > And, while at it, why not use penetrating energies such as the > > hospital scan to give a true internal image of the tree which could > > then be studied for whatever reasons, such as the work done by Alex > > Shigo to determine the course of "discoloration and decay"- or to > > discern the value of the tree for wildlife habitat (assuming some > > hollows in the tree). > > > And, if this is done for many trees close together- it could be useful > > to Gary Beluzo who I recall is interested in the emergent properties > > existing in forests- and for that, having such information and > > modeling tools- might be significant in such research. > > > Just a crazy thought. > > > Joe- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org You are subscribed to the Google Groups "ENTSTrees" group. 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