Steve,

There are advantages and disadvantages to measuring with the leaves off.  You 
must be able to identify the tree with the leaves off.  It is easier to shoot 
through leafless branches than those with leaves, so some people prefer to 
shoot after leaf fall.  On the other hand, if you can see the top, it is often 
easier to get a good bounce off a leaf than a thin twig.  With my old 
rangefinder I had a terrible time trying to shot through branches or small 
holes regardless of whether or not the leaves were on the tree.  With my Nikon 
440 I find that it shoots through smaller holes fairly well, so the answer also 
depends on your equipment.  The bottom line is that measuring with leaves off 
may be easier at times, but not always, and you can shoot whatever time of the 
year you go out.  You just need to get out in the field and do it.

Ed  


Join me in the Eastern Native Tree Society at http://www.nativetreesociety.org
and in the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at:  
http://primalforests.ning.com/ 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steve Galehouse 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:40 PM
  Subject: [ENTS] Re: Measurement methodology question


  Thanks Ed-

  I understand the method now. Is it safe to assume measuring deciduous trees 
in a leafless state would be more accurate, in terms of a good laser shot 
through a crown?

  Steve


  On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:30 PM, Edward Frank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

    Steve,

    No there isn't any difference in the accuracy of the clinometer at any 
angle.  You just need to see the top of the tree.  Generally being back enough 
so that the angle is close to 45 or so is generally better for seeing the true 
top.  Steeper angles mean you are more likely to be at a point where the true 
top may be hidden by outward jutting branches.  The farther you get away then 
the more the error in reading the clinometer accurately affects the accuracy of 
the measurement.  The clinometer is mechanical, so if say it were off by 0.2 
degrees high, it would read high 0.2 degrees at all angles.  By shooting both 
the top and the bottom angle with the clinometer any intrinsic errors in the 
calibration of the clinometer will tend to offset between the top and bottom 
angles - not completely but close.

    45 degrees is just a ball park suggestion.  You need to find the top of the 
tree so you must shoot from wherever it gives you a good line of sight.  
Sometimes it will be steeper, sometimes a shallower angle.  In general the key 
is to explore the top with the laser rangefinder scanning for the highest 
point.  At the the same angle or within a couple of degrees, the greatest 
distance with the rangefinder - the higher the top.  Typically what appears to 
be the top at first glance is not really the highest point.  Scan around  and 
find the highest combination of distance and angle.  It may be a obscure branch 
back into the apparent top mass of canopy that is the actual highest point.  
Remember the branch at the greatest distance at or close to the steepest angle 
is the tallest top.

    Ed



    Join me in the Eastern Native Tree Society at 
http://www.nativetreesociety.org
    and in the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at:  
http://primalforests.ning.com/ 

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Steve Galehouse 
      To: [email protected] 
      Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 10:54 PM
      Subject: [ENTS] Re: Measurement methodology question


      Bob, ENTS-

      Thanks, I borrowed one of my kids' calculators, and now know how to plug 
in the SINE function---SIN(degrees)value x laser distance--right? top and base.
      Is there any difference in accuracy regarding slope? Is taking a higher 
clinometer degree reading more accurate than a lower one?

      Steve


      On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 8:33 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

        Steve,

            Unforntunately not. The slope scale IS the tangent value x 100 and 
its use assumes a level baseline. You have to use the laser distance to the 
actual target and the degrees to that target with the formula: distance x sine 
of angle. 

        Bob
          -------------- Original message -------------- 
          From: Steve G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

          > 
          > ENTS 
          > 
          > I've just acquired a clinometer with both degree and percent 
scales. I 
          > understand the sine method of measuring with clinometer and laser 
          > rangefinder(at least I think I understand). Can I simplify an 
accurate 
          > measurement by taking rangefinder distance times % slope of 
          > clinometer, without translating a degree reading to a sine value? 
          > Intuitively it seems it should get to get to the same figure from 
          > different directions.--is this correct? 
          > 
          > Steve 
          >












  


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