ED,
I am in agreement with your ideas. There could only be a few reasons for white pines to exceed the heights we see today. The simplest of course, would be competition for light. That competition would be imposed by another object or tree blocking the light. What would that object be? Most likely other white pines. I think we can agree that in New England there are no species of trees that would impose a competitive influence on white pine height growth. Ever. Same could be said of the southern Appalachians if we are talking of trees 250 feet tall. You would need a tight grove of super trees to sustain one that tall. For example, the Boogerman Pine is surrounded by dozens of other white pines of similar or even older ages (~350) yet it is the only one over 180. Out of the entire cove it grows in it likely has had the perfect location and disturbance history to allow it to dominate above all others. Even at its prime it was but 40 feet taller than the surrounding forest. It was not 90 feet and had no reason to get so tall. As it turns out- the top was smashed by a wind event whereas the main canopy below was untouched. Assuming a 40-50 foot emergence average for mature white pine, for the Boogerman Pine to be 250 feet tall the surrounding canopy would have to be 200 feet tall. The associated non-pine trees around the Boogerman Pine are tall- but none exceed 165. Tuliptree 165, hemlock 158- we know these species and they are not going to reach 200. If there were no external factors (storm damage, insect damage, drought, fungi, etc.) influencing the height of a white pine I believe they could reach 250 feet. This would only happen under their pown influence and may have happened a few times in the past. But still I highly doubt it- I suggest there was simply no reason. Will F. Blozan President, Eastern Native Tree Society President, Appalachian Arborists, Inc. "No sympathy for apathy" _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Edward Frank Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 12:35 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENTS] White pine growth rates--something of interest about growth possibilities Jack, ENTS, I will admit I am skeptic about white pine trees growing to 250 feet tall. By that I mean I doubt the veracity of these claims and believe that they are most likely exaggerations or measurement errors, but I will not rule out the small possibility that some of the trees actually were that high. What I am wondering is what you and other ENTS think about the processes that lead to these great heights. If you look at a ridgeline of an old growth forest that contains white pines, you often see a general canopy top, and there are white pines sticking out as a supracanopy tree above the general canopy top. These trees stick out maybe 30- 40 feet above the rest. Would these trees have stuck out 90 feet above the canopy? Would they be growing with many other white pines that they were forced to grow this high to get enough light? Would there be other giant trees present of other species that push the general canopy height upward. In general white pines are like paint brushes. There is a long trunk and the live branches form a brush at the upper end of the trunk where it extends into the canopy and above the canopy, with few live branches below. How far above the canopy does a tree need to stick to obtain enough light? Like that always have the actors cliché - what is there motivation for growing really tall once they are a reasonable distance above the general canopy? On a structural side of it, the tops that are sticking out are subject to wind damage much more so than the branches within the overall canopy and therefore would break more often. Essentially they are limited by wind damage to how high they can stick up. Would the general canopy height be overall taller, perhaps populated by other white pines in a near monoculture grove, so that they would provide each other with protection from the wind? I am trying to envision how these tall trees would look in relation to the rest of the forest, why they would form that way, and how they would work in the wind an weather. Ed Frank http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/ http://primalforests.ning.com/ http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=709156957> &id=709156957 ----- Original Message ----- From: JACK SOBON <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [ENTS] White pine growth rates--something of interest about growth possibilities ...Though the account of a 300 foot pine in Charlemont, Massachusetts may be stretched, surely some of the other 250'+ accounts must be true. They had accurate measuring devices then. Though they lacked the techno-gizmo's of today, they were not primitive. There were surveyors, builders, and others skilled in measuring then. When I measure old structures from the 1700's, they are typically within a quarter inch on a sixty foot length. A modern steel measuring tape can vary that much from winter to summer with thermal expansion. Just because we don't have them today, doesn't mean there weren't 250 footers then. Nowhere in New England are there now pines growing in an ideal spot (like that I mentioned above) where they have been undisturbed for 400 years! Jack Sobon
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