Larry, Barry,
My last response comes across harsher than I intended. There are
likely other reasons besides fire contributing to the poor soils in
the pine barrens. Pitch Pine is able to grown in these poorer soil
conditions. What I was trying to do was to consider the role of fire
in the barrens. With other factors seeming similar and the age of the
most stunted trees similar to those in the surrounding area, I was
arguing that the intensity of fire was the cause for the more severe
stunting. Marion Brooks is an example of the effects of severe fire
on a standard forest system and the results are similar to what is
being exhibited here, both in terms of the different degrees of
stunting of trees in different areas and the paucity of species
diversity. The Marion Brooks fires were the result of the aftermath
of logging operations. It could be wrong but I still think that given
the logging that has taken place in the barrens, that the greater
intensity of fire that I am postulating could also have been the
result of the aftermath of logging.
I am wondering if you know, or if anybody knows, if after repeated
generations of growth under these conditions, if there is some genetic
dwarfing taking place or is it purely because of growing conditions?
The idea is not Lamarckian selection. It is like the loss of eyes in
blind cave fish. They are did not lose because the eyes are useless
in the dark, they lost their eyes because it is more energy efficient
to not grow them when they do not provide a benefit. In the case of
the pines, perhaps it is more efficient in some ways to not try to
grow full sized trees, therefore those that are predisposed to have a
small size have been selected for resulting in a degree of dwarfism?
Ed
http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/
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----- Original Message -----
*From:* Edward Frank <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, January 10, 2010 12:14 AM
*Subject:* Re: [ENTS] Beautiful stunted Pitch Pines
Larry,
They are similar because in these pitch pine communities are
natural fires that mess with the soil structure, while at Marion
Brook there was a condition created by timbering that enabled a
severe fire to take place. Pitch Pine communities in general
are fire dependant systems. Without the fires the pitch pines are
displaced by other less fire tolerant species. Whether or not this
particular small patch in the pine barrens has lousy soil because
of natural burning or because of human caused situation, the soil
is still lousy because of burning. You can't deny that the area
has been logged. If one area is dramatically different in size in
one small patch than it is in adjacent areas, it is not
unreasonable that this area was affected by fires of greater
intensity than the surrounding areas, or affected more recently.
There is no other good explanation for this particular patch to be
more stunted than are the trees in adjacent areas given the same
basic geology and water conditions. You can't dismiss the idea
that this was related to human activity, just because the pine
community also burns naturally. Most certainly the analogy is
valid and there are similarities between the two areas. That is
how you examine question by contrasting and comparing areas with
similar but not identical situations.
Edward Frank
http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/
http://primalforests.ning.com/
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----- Original Message -----
*From:* x <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2010 11:46 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ENTS] Beautiful stunted Pitch Pines
most of that area has naturally poor sandy soils and has
naturally burned for centuries on top of that, it had stunted
growth at the time of the first new European settlers arrival
in some areas down there no trees grows above 4-5' or so and
even in an average area they are always stunted to some extent
over large portions of the region
it's one of the very few totally natural stunted pitch pine
areas, it's nothing at all like Marion Brooks
-Larry
*From:* Edward Frank <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2010 11:13 PM
*To:* [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [ENTS] Beautiful stunted Pitch Pines
Barry,
Do you think the smaller stunted trees are similar in age to
the larger ones nearby? Sometimes stunting is because of high
acidity or some exotic mineral formed from the weathering of
the bedrock. There should not be that drastic of a difference
geologically in this location to cause the stunting. In this
location, I do not think they are stunted because of lack of
water. From the setting it looks as if they would not need to
develop very long roots to reach water - so that is not a
likely explanation.
The best suggestion I can make is that this particular area
had been subject to a severe fire, maybe from a big brush pile
after logging or just brush itself that grew after logging.
If the fire is severe enough it will destroy the organic
components of the soil and the soil structure leaving behind a
mineral soil that will not support many plant species. These
are first occupied by some pioneering species, but it will
take decades to a couple hundred years before the soil
rebuilds enough to support "normal" vegetation. This is what
happened at Marion Brooks Natural Area in central
Pennsylvania. After eighty or ninety years there are still
large section that only are growing blueberries and bracken
fern. What trees that are present in the worst hit areas are
paper birch and to a lesser extent pitch pine.
In your area of the pine barrens the succession is likely
first some of the lichens and hedges, then perhaps the pitch
pines. But just because they will sprout there does not mean
they will grow well. The trees in these areas are typically
stunted by the poor nutrients and nature of the soil. I think
that is what is happening here. These trees are stunted
because they are growing in an area particularly hard hit by
fires that ruined the soil structure.
Ed
http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/
http://primalforests.ning.com/
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