James,
What make you say the tree did not do well? Even though old and small the
tree is providing an important ecological function- ones we may not even
be
aware of at that great age. Also, to me hemlocks are the epitome of
patience- and if released that tree could have bolted to the sky and
become
a champion!
Will F. Blozan
President, Eastern Native Tree Society
President, Appalachian Arborists, Inc.
"No sympathy for apathy"
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of James Parton
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 12:20 PM
To: ENTSTrees
Subject: [ENTS] Re: Weather, adelgids and what is being lost in the
forest
Russ,
That just blows me away. A 3/4 diameter stem on a 146 year old
hemlock. Proof absolute that you can't go by size to judge old trees.
That poor tree obviously did not do well and probably had neighbors
like it. You almost needed a low-power microscope!
In those woods a 4 inch diameter hemlock could have possibly been
primary old growth.
James Parton
On Jan 9, 11:20 am, [email protected] wrote:
> Larry:
> I recently visited Massachusetts and spent many hours walking around my
> families' farm in Franklin County.
> The last time I spent much time walking around my native territory
> prior
> to this trip, the HWA had not yet arrived.
> The first thing I noticed was a nearly complete absence of healthy
> understory hemlock and in some places a total absence of live hemlock
smaller than
> large pole size.
> In one area I visited there are no longer any live understory hemlock
> trees larger than seedling size although there were still a lot of live
pole
> sized trees present. In that patch of woods I remember walking around
with
> the elderly owner about 30 years ago while we conducted a post harvest
> assessment of a logging job. As we passed through one portion of the
harvest
> area the owner commented on a "young" hemlock tree that the logging had
> damaged. I interjected that small size was not necessarily an accurate
> reflection of age and I proceeded to cut down the 3/4" diameter tree
> with
my Swiss
> Army Knife as a demonstration. I was expecting the sapling to be 30
> or
40
> years old and was blown away when I had to use a hand lens to count the
> rings and came up with about 146 years. I wrote that information on
> the
side
> of a three inch long piece of the stem at the time I did it and have
> kept
> it on my desk for years.
> All of that hemlocks' understory brethren in that patch of forest are
> no
> longer alive and their 100+ years of existence is no longer evident as
more
> than rotting detritus on the forest floor..
> With the extreme age it is possible for hemlock to achieve as an
understory
> tree I think that the true impact of the loss of hemlock as a
> component
of
> the understory, especially as a stabilizing influence, is going to
> ripple
> through the entire forest and change it in ways not yet imagined.
> Russ
> e What struck me was the loss of all the ancient trees in the
> understory
> In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
> ENTS,
> Is it just me or is it really the case the older/larger the tree, the
> quicker those nasty wooly adelgids kill it?
> We still have some scraggly young hemlock in the woods behind our
> house
> (heavily infested but still somehow hanging on for now although they
> are
> looking weaker) but anything of decent look or age has been dead for a
couple
> years for the most part and one area which may have had some
> old-growth
ones
> was already 100% dead many years back.
> And I was horrified to see how fast those mega-giants in the smokies
went,
> many even after treatment . I was really happy when I thought at
> least
a
> few of those ultra-grove had been saved....
> SOme of it is just where a bird carrying them happens to land first
> too
of
> course as some groves here were certainly hit much earlier than
> others,
> but once they are hit, I could swear the old giants actually fare much
worse
> (I would've guessed the opposite).
> -Larry
> From: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 11:03 AM
> To: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
> Subject: Re: [ENTS] Re: Weather
> Lee,
> No, I'll gladly endure cold to see woolly adelgid killed. I'm just in
> a
> complaining mood this morning.
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Frelich" <[email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) >
> To: [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected])
> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2010 9:56:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [ENTS] Re: Weather
> Bob:
> Cold weather does kill hemlock woolly adelgid. So, I take it that you
> have decided its OK for the remaining old-growth hemlock to die so you
> don't have to experience a few cold days.
> Regarding ticks--you should see the new data we have from northern MN,
> where we left several Hobos in the soil all winter. They measured
> temperature every hour for the entire year. In the summer and fall,
> soil
> temperature at a depth of 2 inches went up and down with air
> temperature
> (although the response lagged air temperature by a day and was
> damped--i.e. the rises and falls were of smaller magnitude than air
> temperature. As soon as the snow arrived, soil temperature went flat
> at
> about 30 degrees F. Air temperature during winter fluctuated from -45
> to
> +45, and the soil temperature stayed absolutely constant. Soil
> temperatures reached their minimums in late fall and early spring when
> there was no snow, but there were a few days of colder than average air
> temperatures.
> So, thats why ticks survive in the boreal forests of northern MN. To
> kill ticks, an arctic cold spell without any snow on the ground is
> needed, so that soil temperatures get very cold. Of course that would
> kill the trees too, because roots are not adapted to survive the range
> of temperatures as the tops of trees.
> Lee
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Will,
> > Do you mind if ENTS moves in with you. I'm sick of winter already.
> > It
> > is snowing lightly outside now and the maximum temperature here at
> > the
> > house will likely not rise to over 25 today. Saturday night the
> > temperature here at the house will likely be around 0.
> > One advantage to cold weather I always thought was thinning out the
> > populations of pests like ticks. But, if they're able to live
> > through
> > extremely low temperatures, what the heck good is really cold
> > weather?
> > Bob
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Will Fell" <[email protected]>
> > To: "ENTSTrees" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 8, 2010 8:57:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada
> > Eastern
> > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Weather
> > Yes it is all relative. It was 70 degrees here New Years eve and
> > fell
> > like a rock Jan 1. Jan 12nd was the first below freezing morning
> > this
> > winter and all week we woke up to temps in the 20's and highs only
> > about 50. This morning is the first day since Jan 1st we haven't
> > awoken to temps below 32. It was only 35 this morning, but the "warm
> > spell" won't last as it is to head to the low 20's tonight. Normally
> > we will get a day or two of cold weather then it will blow out to
> > sea.
> > The cold has been the lead story in all the papers the past few days
> > and everyone is fussing about it. I imagine folks in New England
> > would
> > be running around in shorts in this weather, but it has us in the
> > deep
> > south shivering.
> > But I really wonder about the ticks. Here in South GA ticks are not
> > a
> > problem like up north. You will get an occaisional tick, but not
> > like
> > some places further north where you can't go in the woods without
> > spraying down. And we do not have lyme disease dispite having a
> > heavy
> > deer population. So I really wonder if ticks and Lyme disease are
> > responsive to cold weather.
> > WF
> > On Jan 8, 7:34 am, Beth <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Ents,
> > > Wednesday night/Thursday day we here in St. Louis got between 3-6
> > > inches of snow. While this is not much the problem was the cold
> > > front
> > > that came with it. High temps for yesterday were in the teens and
> > > today and tomorrow the highs are to be in the single temps. Of
course
> > > the wind chills have been -10 and below. This is heading towards
> > > the
> > > Northeast today. I hope that everyone there dresses warmly and in
> > > layers if they have to get outside.
> > > I hope that this bitter cold (yes I know Lee, this isn't cold for
you)
> > > kills off some of the ticks around here. I am tired of pulling
> > > them
> > > off of me along with getting Lyme.
> > > Beth
> Emoticon10.gif
> < 1KViewDownload
> Emoticon10.gif
> < 1KViewDownload
> Emoticon10.gif
> < 1KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
