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This message was automatically forwarded
on behalf of Bill Bayne. Please address any responses to the mail list or
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From: William R. Bayne
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006
1:10 AM
To: Ed Burkhead
Subject: Re: [COUPERS-TECH]
Aircraft spec / type certificate
rlytech
Hi Bill,
Congratulations! You suggested the next to the last piece in this puzzle. I
will lay claim to the final piece. To Recap:
1. Roy Stubbs brought up the difference in the headings of TCDS 718 and 787.
His A&P/IA's speculation as to the difference in nomenclature was
incorrect, but it got more of us thinking.
2. John Cooper thought "Aircraft Specification" was the earlier
"standard reference" that is now "Type Certificate Data
Sheet". He was correct.
I have a copy of "Aircraft Specification No. A-787", Rev. 24 dated
September 6, 1967; now referred to as a "Type Certificate Data
Sheet".
3. I stated that "Erco had a
CAA designee fly acceptance on every airframe they ever produced, and I believe
this continued through Forney and Alon production. Only Mooney would have had a
relatively easy changeover to build under a "production certificate";
and I don't know if they did or not." This
is an accurate description of the wording confirmed in (5.) below. But I was
wrong about some of the Alon production (
4. You referred us to the "production basis" notations of A-718 and
A-787 for further review.
(5.) Following your suggestion, I did. On page 2 of A-718, "Production
basis" is "None. Prior to original certification of each aircraft, an
FAA representative must perform a detailed inspection for workmanship,
materials and conformity with the approved technical data and a check of flight
characteristics." On page 6 of A-787, "Production basis" (followed
by Erco Models 415-D, E, G, Forney Models F-1, F-1A, Alon Models A-2 and A-2A
[subsequent to March 1, 1968] and Mooney Model M10) is "None.
(
This thread is a fine example of the best possible operation of this list. A
topic arose, seemingly out of nowhere. In the beginning, there was a void of
knowledge into which was poured both wheat and chaff. The collective interest
of our enthusiasts enabled fact to separate from speculation and clarity to
emerge from chaos. All who participated should take equal pride. Apologies to any
whose eyes glaze at such detailed trivia.
Regards,
WRB
--
On Feb 1, 2006, at 23:14, WILLIAM BIGGS wrote:
Bill,
On both the 718 and 787 look under SPECIFICATIONS PERTINENT TO ALL MODELS. See
"Certifaction basis" and "Production basis".
This clears up some of the confusion and creates more.
Bill
From:
William R. Bayne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:
Wednesday, February 01, 2006 2:57 PM
To:
[COUPERS-TECH] (via) Ed Burkhead
Subject:
Re: [COUPERS-TECH] Aircraft spec / type certificate
Hi Ed,
I, like you have been making
reference to TCDS (Type Certificate Data Sheet) 718 and 787. This appears
justified by the notation to the left of the title of each: "Type
Certificate Holder: Univair Aircraft Corporation".
If you go to page 6 of A-718, NOTE
3:(e), note the reference to "NOTE 2 of Aircraft Specification No. A-787
(emphasis added).
This,
to me, indicates at one time BOTH A-718 and A-787 were titled "Aircraft
Specification".
Additionally, the Ercoupe 415 and
415-C were designed under CAR 4a. Later, The 415-D, E, G, et al were designed
under CAR 3. Fred Weick and Erco had every expectation that application of CAR
3 requirements to an airframe designed under CAR 4a should convey the higher
(1400#) gross weight allowable to the earlier and already existing design. The
CAA/FAA most assuredly did not agree when it came time for such official
approval(s).
The suggestion of John Cooper
(Skyport) that "Aircraft Specification" is the precursor to
"Type Certificate Data Sheet." would seem correct.
I
don't think these wording differences relate to building individual aircraft
conforming to either TCDS as opposed to building a bunch of aircraft under a
Production Certificate.
Erco had a CAA designee fly
acceptance on every airframe they ever produced, and I believe this continued
through Forney and Alon production. Anyone have specific information otherwise?
Only Mooney, already so producing other models of their 1969 line, would have
had a relatively easy changeover to build under a "production certificate";
and I don't know if they did or not. Anyone else know?
Regards,
William R. Bayne
<____|-(o)-|____>
(Copyright
2004)
--
On Feb 1, 2006, at 11:45, Ed
Burkhead wrote:
Roy
Stubbs wrote:
>
The 415-C and C/D models were built according to
>
AIRCRAFT SPECIFICATION NO. A-718, while the D model
>
and higher, including Forney, Alon, etc., are certificated
>
under TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A-787.
>
The difference is all in the name of the document. A-718 is
>
not a Type Certificate, A-787 is a Type Certificate.
>
>
According to my A&P/IA the 415-C and C/D models,
>
therefore, were each individually inspected for airworthiness
>
by the FAA rep at the factory because A-718 is not a Type
>
Certificate, only a Specification. And, that is why each one
>
can be a little bit different.
He
may be on to something interesting there. I had been calling both
“Aircraft Specification” and I see I was wrong. In A-787, as reference
from my Coupe web page, it does say, “TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A-787” as
you’re a&P/IA pointed out. My website is now updated.
Does
anyone else know anything about the ramifications of this difference?
Ed
Burkhead
On Feb 1, 2006, at 12:30, John
Cooper wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think
"Aircraft Specification" is the precursor to "Type Certificate
Data Sheet." What I think was being referred to is the difference
between building individual aircraft conforming to the TCDS and building a
bunch of aircraft under a Production Certificate. The former must each be
inspected for conformity while the latter do not.
John Cooper, A&P
Skyport
Services
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