Hi Dave, Thanks for the feedback. The main reason ErlyWeb doesn't have an ActionWebService equivalent is that nobody until now has expressed a need for it. (Btw, I usually refrain from implementing features just because other frameworks have them -- I like to avoid bload so I only add features that I need or that other people ask for and/or volunteer to contribute.) What kind of support do you want to see for web services in ErlyWeb?
Yariv On Nov 13, 2007 2:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello group, > > One of the weaknesses of ErlyWeb from my perspective is the lack of a > Web services framework. With Erlang's focus on concurrency and > Erlyweb's focus on making Erlang/Web development as easy as PHP etc., > this seems a surprising omission (at least, I *think* it's an > omission; maybe it's there and I just haven't picked up on the fact). > > Probably the best point of comparison is Ruby on Rails (RoR). RoR has > had a Web services framework (ActiveWebService) from the beginning; > while it doesn't seem to have been that popular, it makes it > incredibly easy to expose functionality as Web services. > > For the types of apps I generally work on, this is just golden; it > makes RoR a strong contender as the toolset of choice where otherwise > it wouldn't even be considered as an option. > > I'm aware that it's possible to use Yaws+erlsom, but it has a few > weaknesses: > - erlsom's install relies on sh; it doesn't install on Ubuntu without > a bit of mucking around, and must be a challenge for Windows as well > - setting up a Web service is a non-trivial exercise; just read > through the relevant page (http://yaws.hyber.org/soap_intro.yaws) at > the Yaws site > > Regards > > Dave M. > > On Nov 12, 6:04 am, "Yariv Sadan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mojo, > > > > if you're building a simple CRUD app, you can build it in pretty much > > any language with similar effort and results. ErlyWeb's goal is to > > make building webapps in Erlang as easy as in Ruby/Python/PHP/etc and > > I think it achieves it pretty well. AFAIK, Erlang will give you better > > performance than the popular scripting languages, but you'll have to > > benchmark it and decide how much it matters to you. > > > > If your app's backend is more complex than a few web servers that talk > > to a single database server, Erlang can help you even more. If to > > respond to a request, you need to do multiple things concurrently or > > do some distributed computation, or fire off background processes for > > asynchronous tasks, Erlang is the best choice by a long shot. Erlang > > is much better than other languages for Comet apps that maintain > > persistent connections to the clients (I'm sure you've seen the > > apache-vs-yaws graph :) ). > > > > For more common needs, Erlang/ErlyWeb also has better support for > > sharing session state (using Mnesia) and transaction-aware multi-db > > connection pooling (using lightweight processes + messaging) than > > other languages. > > > > Erlang/ErlyWeb is great for highly available applications (and for > > interactive and highly productive development) due to its support for > > hot code swapping. You can even change your database schema, recomplie > > your app, and start using the new schema without taking your server > > offline. > > > > And finally, Erlang is fun! :) > > > > Cheers, > > Yariv > > > > > On Nov 10, 2007 7:08 AM, mojo.talantikite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the answers, I really appreciate them. Sometime later > > > today or tomorrow I'd like to write up some questions that pertain to > > > more of what I'm trying to do, but for now that gives me some pretty > > > good ideas as to how I could use Erlang/ErlyWeb. > > > > > Overall, what do you feel are Erlang/ErlyWeb's particular strengths > > > when it comes to web development? Of course you can pretty much get > > > any language/framework to do what you need it to do, but how does this > > > particular combination yield itself to solving (or simplifying) > > > particular web development problems? > > > > > Thanks again, the answers were very helpful. > > > > > best, > > > Mojo > > > > > On Nov 9, 6:25 am, Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Nov 9, 9:08 am, "Yariv Sadan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 8, 2007 12:23 PM, mojo.talantikite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm in the very early stages of founding a startup, and currently > > > > > > we're in talks about what type of technology to be using. As there > > > > > > aren't too many people on board now, and none besides myself that > > > > > > are > > > > > > technical, there is a pretty blank slate for development as of now. > > > > > > After playing around with Erlang for the past couple of days I'm > > > > > > starting to think about the pros/cons of using Erlang. > > > > > > > > Anyways, I have questions pertaining to how Erlang/ErlyWeb addresses > > > > > > certain needs and issues of scaling. I thought it might be more > > > > > > useful > > > > > > for a greater number of people if instead of speaking solely about > > > > > > our > > > > > > needs for our web app, we use an example people might be familiar > > > > > > with > > > > > > and get more from: YouTube. Here are some notes on a Google Tech > > > > > > Talk > > > > > > that was given, which also contains a link to the tech talk video: > > > > > >http://kylecordes.com/2007/07/12/youtube-scalability/ > > > > > > > > Here are some questions that come to mind when thinking about what > > > > > > they faced: > > > > > > > > 1. Their main reason for choosing Python as their language is > > > > > > because > > > > > > development speed and productivity was (and is) very important for > > > > > > various reasons (one important one was probably showing prototypes > > > > > > and > > > > > > their progresses to potential investors). Erlang seems to be a very > > > > > > productive environment for some applications, but how does it stand > > > > > > up > > > > > > for web app development? Using Python, PHP, or Ruby has the added > > > > > > benefit of having lots of developers to draw from their experiences > > > > > > -- > > > > > > how would Erlang compare? > > > > > > > Erlang definitely has fewer developers using it for webapps that PHP, > > > > > Python or Ruby. My subjective take is that, having done PHP > > > > > programming and played with RoR, ErlyWeb can be just as productive if > > > > > not more and its code is very concise and expressive. I rarely feel > > > > > that I'm writing repetitive code that doesn't directly solve the > > > > > problem domain. Plus, I prefer Erlang's functional style to imperative > > > > > one. I think FP makes your code more readable and debuggable. Erlang > > > > > has fewer libraries than more popular languages, which may or may not > > > > > affect you depending on your app's needs, but I think that the fewer > > > > > libraries isn't as big an issue as some people say. Erlang has a > > > > > variety of ways for talking to other lanugages and I'd rather write > > > > > most of my code in Erlang in occasionally outsource some functionality > > > > > to another language than lock my whole app to a language I don't like > > > > > as much just because of the existence of a couple of libraries for it. > > > > > Btw, Erlang also has some tools that other languages don't have -- > > > > > most notably, elegant concurrency and Mnesia. > > > > > > > > 2. Serving content was of course a big issue. They moved to > > > > > > lighttpd > > > > > > from Apache for their videos and got a lot of performance increases > > > > > > (they use CDNs for their most popular content). Yaws seems great > > > > > > for > > > > > > dynamic content, but is there anything better for the static > > > > > > content? > > > > > > > Use lighttpd for static content and Yaws (or MochiWeb) for dynamic > > > > > content. > > > > > > > > 3. Another major issue YouTube ran into was serving their > > > > > > thumbnails. Each video can have about 4 thumbnails and each page, > > > > > > while having only one video playing, could have 40-60 thumbnails per > > > > > > page. Thumbnails, unlike video, aren't distributed across hundreds > > > > > > of > > > > > > machines (due to their size). So, you have lots of requests per > > > > > > second and tons of disk seeks. Apache didn't really work out, so > > > > > > they > > > > > > then went to a modified version of lighttpd that put the disk reads > > > > > > into worker threads -- but they ran into issues with that as well. > > > > > > They finally went to Google's BTFE. How would Erlang look at this > > > > > > problem -- would Yaws help at all? > > > > > > > I'm not too familiar with this problem, but if it's static data, it's > > > > > generally better to serve if from lighttpd than Yaws. > > > > > > Agreed LightHttpd or apache will outperform Yaws with static content. > > > > If its lots of small files/images look at using a cache like server > > > > with lots and lots of RAM also consider using solid state disks (SSDs) > > > > in Raid 0 configs, these are much faster than traditional disks for > > > > random small files, they blow away performance of even 15K scsi arrays > > > > for this job, as seeks on SSD flash are near zero in comparison. The > > > > limit here is capacity. You can get 64GB SSDs with Sata interfaces > > > > (Sata II soon from Samsung) raid these up with Sata Raid Boards on > > > > fast PCIe interfaces + built in Sata ports in a mirror config You will > > > > be surprised at how kick ass fast these are for the job. You also need > > > > good server Gigabit ports that can be aggregated. > > > > > > > > 4. They use MySql to store metadata, but as the site got huge, they > > > > > > ran into some issues with it. They went from having one database to > > > > > > doing db replication. That caused issues eventually, one of them > > > > > > being that spreading read load (being asynchronous) caused the > > > > > > database to serve outdated data from time to time. They then went to > > > > > > partitioning the database into shards. Overall, though, they're > > > > > > running into issues due to the fact that they're trying to do more > > > > > > and > > > > > > more stuff with the data. For example, recommendation systems and > > > > > > data mining gets really hard on 100s of millions of views per day, > > > > > > so > > > > > > they are needing some solutions that can do parallel queries and > > > > > > handle distributed computation. Would Mnesia be able to help handle > > > > > > these issues, or anything else from the Erlang world that could deal > > > > > > with these issues? > > > > > > > Mnesia is more suited for storing live session data than large amounts > > > > > of persistent data. And Mnesia isn't really suited for data mining -- > > > > > just for simple queries. However, Erlang helps in that it allows you > > > > > to connect to multiple databases using its great connection pooling > > > > > capabilities (a process is spawned for each database connection, and a > > > > > dispatcher process is responsible for routing queries to connection > > > > > processes). If I were building YouTube in Erlang, I would consider > > > > > doing all replication and partitioning work in the application code > > > > > rather than relying on the database engine. > > > > > > Use flat files for the metadata and cache them where possible across > > > > machines, consider an appending meta file storage controller (write it > > > > yourself) and file formats that enable appending rather than editing. > > > > The trick heres is to only append to files where possible, editing is > > > > expense (Well percolating the changes is).Break the files up like you > > > > would database tables and crate summarized view files for common > > > > queries. > > > > > > If there is a lot of data + analysis consider something like a map > > > > reduce pattern to create views on the backend, erlang is excellent for > > > > this sort of stuff, blows the socks of most others. > > > > > > regards > > > > Al > > > > > > Regards > > > > Al > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "erlyweb" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/erlyweb?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
