On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Brendan Eich <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 18, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Mark S. Miller wrote: > > Since I do not yet understand what you are trying to say, I may be the >>> wrong person to guess why I'm finding it hard to understand ;). Altogether, >>> my best guess right now is that what you are calling a module is what I >>> would call a sandbox. >>> >> >> Could be. Is there a hard difference? It's not obvious. >> >> Users definitely want isolated frame-like "modules". Some browsers even >> support such things, with postMessage for safe inter-"module" communication. >> It's a bit heavyweight, but to get back to the topic of this sub-thread: is >> the only alternative frozen primordials? I think not. >> >> I never said they were. Whether Valija specifically is the right model for >> separating primordial mutation, we can of course argue about. But first, I'm >> still trying to understand your meaning. Would you agree that the Valija >> sandbox is an example of the concept you are calling "module" above? If so, >> then fine. Obviously, given the investment we've made in Valija, I am not >> opposed to that model. If not, then I still do not understand your meaning. >> > > I don't believe I've been unclear. I also don't believe I have to read up > on Valija to communicate with you. Let's meet in the middle. > > JS has mutable primordials. Adding modules won't banish this feature, even > if you think mutating primordials should be avoided (ES5 makes it possible > to mutate without breaking things like for-in). > > If you insist on frozen primordials for modules to be used, I am not yet insisting on anything. I am still trying to understand what you are talking about. If you have not been unclear, then my failure is my fault, fine. That doesn't help me understand. > then we'll have to define and agree on sandboxes. But whatever you call > them, if you miss the mark with frozen-primordial modules, users will not > use them and we'll have wasted our time. > > Another possibility, with precedent in other languages, is two levels: the > outer module system, acyclic and generally bigger by unit; and the inner > one, with first-class modules. There is not good agreement on the name for > the outer thing. If you want we can say sandbox. > > One could imagine cooperating modules sharing mutable primordials within a > sandbox, and of course not sharing primordials across the sandbox boundary. > > Again the point is that frozen primordials should not be dictated. > > I have not proposed to dictate this. > Sorry if this is annoyingly recapitulating Valija. The list is read by many > people, not all conversant, and in order to avoid assuming too much, I > believe we should try to work from broader precedent and first principles. > I'll look at Valija later today. > > Thank you. Once you and I understand each other, I'm sure we can proceed to explain and argue without assuming a detailed understanding of Valija by the broader audience. > /be > -- Cheers, --MarkM
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