On Oct 30, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Mark Miller wrote:
On Oct 30, 2007 10:13 AM, Chris Pine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes, I read that. I am extremely doubtful that Microsoft is
suddenly so
concerned about browser compatibility for the benefit of the web.
(When
IE passes the Acid 2 test, let's talk again.)
It's nice that MS has constructed this document identifying browser
differences. But frankly, this is too little, too late. We are
painfully aware of the significant differences. Suggesting that
we all
sit down and strive to fix every last trivial discrepancy under the
guise of "browser compatibility" is manipulative and, from a business
standpoint, absurd. It is an unnecessary task that would never be
completed.
In essence, it is just another stalling tactic.
When I raised non-technical points critical of the ES4 proposal,
people rightly shot back with a "technical discussion only!" response,
No, that's not what Rob Sayre wrote -- he said (in a later post) that
you (among others) were trash-talking without any technical
substance. Rob wrote:
I'm afraid your message falls into a pattern I've been seeing lately:
unsubstantiated, non-technical criticism. In other words, FUD.
If you have technical criticism to contribute, it is of course
welcome.
That's different from saying "technical discussion only." It is not a
demand for exclusively technical criticism. It is a request to stop
unsubstantiated FUD.
which I've respected. Since then, most of the traffic on the list has
been non-technical criticisms of the critics of the ES4 proposal.
Guess why? Because the critics have made no technical objections on
this list, and some carefully parsed (in Yehuda Katz's phrase; I
wasn't there and I really can't tell what was said) statements about
the politics and division within Ecma TC39-TG1 by Doug Crockford at
last week's The Ajax Experience in Boston.
Of course people are going to argue about the political fight
spilling out of TG1, and we may as well argue here. It's not as if
pretending this political fight is not happening, or that it has no
consequences on ES4, serves anyone's interest except those trying to
stop ES4 from making it out of Ecma. It's not as if we have a better
venue.
Much
of this traffic, such as the message I quote above, continues to
speculate about the motives of others, rather than engaging with what
they are saying.
Chris Pine is on TG1 and a witness to what's going on. He is not
sowing unsubstantiated FUD, he is talking about what he has observed
happening inside TG1, and giving his interpretation of it. He could
be wrong, but his message is not simply speculation.
Politics inevitably involve motives and conflicts of interest, apart
from purely "technical" concerns genuinely expressed. And as should
be very clear by now, the objections to the proposed ES4 that TG1
members have heard are either non-technical, or technical only in a
vacuously general sense.
My comments, which provoked so much response,
contained no such speculation.
No, you merely called ES4 a train wreck and a runaway standard, by
repeating what you heard from someone at OOPSLA. In my book, that's
much worse than speculating about Microsoft's motives or business
interests.
Please note that I'm not talking about individuals who work for
Microsoft, many of whom are fine people who may hold sincere
technical opinions about ES4 as proposed, or at least their
understanding of it. I'm talking about the company's business
interests, its strategies.
Microsoft's interests and strategies are absolutely critical to
consider when developers ask about the future of ES4, as Kris Zyp
just did -- and I am going to respond to him on this list. My
response will contain technical as well as political content.
I can only conclude that, on this list,
the injunction "technical discussion only!" should be interpreted as
carrying the additional clause "unless you agree with us."
You never heard "technical discussion only", and no one ever demanded
agreement with some mythical "us". You've made a straw man and
knocked it down.
/be
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