Since we are discussing 'with' in particular - it may be difficult to tighten
spec language to fix 'with', but I do believe that if there is some way in
which we can deprecate/ban 'with' we should consider it.
For e.g. 'with' interacts with other language features in surprising ways.
Consider the following (contrived) case:
var a = 1;
function foo() {
var o = {a : 2};
with (o) {
var a = 3;
}
print (a);
print(o.a);
}
foo();
print(a);
While it would look like the variable declaration from within 'with' should
create a variable at foo scope and set its value to 3, that's not what's
supposed to happen. Rules for variable instantiation (§10.1.3), variable
declaration grammar (§12.2), identifier reference (§11.1.2), and scope chain
and identifier resolution (§10.1.4) result in the above code being evaluated as
if it were the following:
var a = 1;
function foo() {
var o = {a : 2};
var a = undefined;
with (o) {
a = 3;
}
print(a);
print(o.a);
}
foo();
print(a);
Notice that "var a = 3" ends up creating the variable in one scope and setting
the value on an element in another scope. How can that be intentional?
It may be difficult to tighten spec language to fix this, but we should
consider deprecating/banning 'with' in an opt-in 'strict' mode (or 'subset'
mode).
pratap
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brendan Eich
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:20 PM
To: Mark S. Miller
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [email protected]; Douglas Crockford
Subject: Re: Subset relation (was: RE: ES3.1 Draft: 11 June 2008 version
available)
On Jun 16, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Mark S. Miller wrote:
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Brendan Eich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I am not going to repeat what I wrote at an earlier point in this thread (13
June at 10:24) -- you didn't reply to what I wrote then. Did that message
not reach you?
Are you referring to
<https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es3.x-discuss/2008-June/000108.html>?
Yes.
It was the closest match I could find. I responded to this message.
What remaining point in this message do you feel still needs to be
addressed? I'm not being difficult. I just reread this message and
couldn't spot it.
You
replied<https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es3.x-discuss/2008-June/000109.html>
only to the bit about reformed with, where I wrote:
"Reformed with" was an attempt to restore lexical scope by exact type
annotation. That's what people voted down, not the ES1-3 "with" statement.
but that was not the main point (since reformed with was withdrawn), it was
just setting the record straight ("reformed with", not "strict with" -- and the
fact that it was voted down with red on the spreadsheet does not argue against
plain old "with" being allowed in strict mode).
The main point was that (a) 'with' is widespread and popular; therefore (b)
strict mode that bans 'with' could fail to be used.
The question isn't whether an existing statement is "good enough", it's
whether a strict mode that bans it is "usable enough".
A strict mode which doesn't ban is clearly not.
Why "clearly"? Usability depends on users and "ergonomics". Something about
'with' is usable enough that users persist in writing programs using it. These
users say (when they speak up coherently at all) that 'with' makes the language
more convenient. Well-known JS hackers say this, to me even, and get annoyed by
nagging such as was found in older Firefoxes (console warnings about
"deprecated with").
If you get rid of "with", then the static analysis rule in ES4 becomes
very simple: all free variables in a program (script, compilation
unit, whatever) are global references, to be looked up as properties
of that program's global object, whether or not those properties are
present.
That allows lexical-reference typos through to run-time, where they become
errors -- that is not something the old, withdrawn strict mode in ES4 allowed.
It's true that 'with' prevents analysis from deciding where a free name will be
found, but with the old strict mode, that's actually a useful escape hatch.
Otherwise (no 'with') the name would have to resolve to a compiler-visible
global definition, or you would have to reach for eval.
This old notion of strict mode was to be an optional feature, at the
implementation's discretion. We dropped it in favor of 'use strict' a la
Perl -- "use good taste and sanity".
And is "with" either in good taste or sane?
I avoid 'with', but I try not to confuse my taste with others' tastes (plural),
or with necessity. Why is it necessary for strict mode to ban 'with'?
The global object makes the contents of the global scope unknown. But
it does not ambiguate which variable name occurences are to be
interpreted as references into this global scope. Without "with", ES4
strict scopes would be statically analyzable. I'm surprised you're
willing to give that up.
As I wrote previously, all browser implementations have to support 'with' and
deoptimize code in its body. There's no savings to be had in rejecting it from
strict mode, and doing so takes a tiny bit of extra code. On the other hand,
such a strict mode may be less used than 'with', because of 'with' perduring.
Is 'with' any worse than eval, for the purposes of the analysis you have in
mind, if you already allow the "operator" form of eval in strict mode?
so is kicking 'with' out of
strict mode worth it, especially if it impairs adoption of "use strict"?
Yes. Otherwise I don't see the point of "use strict".
Can you define the point of "use strict" other than by appealing to taste?
/be
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