On 3/28/06, Sašo Kiselkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Quoting Nicolas Roard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Well, first we need to define what's so nice about webapps :-) > > -- they are OS independant and language independant > > Wrong, wrong, wrong. Though they are not OS dependant, they are browser > dependant, which sort-of becomes the OS on which you run a webapp, because it > provides a run-time environment, a library of functions and a user-interface. > Also, they are not language independant - imagine I wanted to write an > interactive webapp in something other than JavaScript/Java - I'm screwed, > because no other scripting language has reached that penetration = we'd break > the interoperatibility, which was the original goal we had with webapps, > right?
Nope, I'm not talking about that at all. It's irrelevant -- javascript + html + css + dom is the target "platform", yes. You can call it a platform/"os" in itself, but that's not my point (even if yes you're right, of course). What I was saying is that the *backend* is language independant -- as long as you can generate html (+javascript/css) you're fine, and that's how yahoo store (lisp) and dabbledb (smalltalk) can work. I was merely pointing that as an (imho) big advantage for "web apps" -- the fact that the backend is "hidden" and can even be changed completely without any client intervention. And that extends to incremental changes -- no modifications on the client side, no client deployment problems, for the client, it's like the webapp improves automatically. > > -- they don't need to be installed > > Technically, they don't, at least not on your client machine, but they do have > to be installed on the server anyways, so non-installation is just an > illusion, > because it's pushed far geographically far away from you, but not in the > virtual > internet-world. Er... yes sure they need to be installed, but don't you see the difference between deploying on a server (even a bunch of server) and deploying on hundreds (or more) of client machines ? I can assure you it's not exactly the same kind of problems... > > -- they don't need backup, or update, everything is done without you > > worrying about it > > -- they are ubiquitous : no need to carry your laptop anymore to read > > your mails... > > But you still need a compatible OS (i.e. web browser with all required > features) > and a computer anyway, so personally I'd opt for having my Etoile mini-desktop > on an easy to carry PDA with all the files handy, instead of looking for > compatible, non-IE5 internet cafes who charge me for looking at _my_ stuff and > doing anything. Such a "compatible os" (or platform) is extremely common nowadays, if not ubiquitous. (snip criticisms of webapps) Note: -------- I am NOT saying that webapps are the best thing ever, not at all. No need to be jumpy about it ! :-) I am merely *pointing* what are the real (and/or perceived) advantages of a "web app", so we can think a bit about those advantages and see if we could use them as an inspiration for étoilé itself. Frankly, dismissing what I said won't make web apps disappear, and I believe there's indeed quite a few areas where "web apps" are better. It's not like there isn't any problems with webapps -- there's plenty of them ! but on the other hand, we shouldn't just dismiss their advantages... I was trying to list those, so we can think about it and come with solutions to the same problems, but for étoilé. > > -- we should simplify installation / update (like the rss update scheme...) > > Yep, this falls on our head. > > > -- we should have an easy, desktop-wide mechanism to do > > backup/synchronization of your data and configuration > > -- which means it should be easy to "share" a desktop among different > > computers. > > Nope, this is already handled. This mail I'm writing right now is from a > machine > which sits a few hundred meters away from me, running Debian GNU/Linux and a > self-confined desktop through inside a VNCserver. I'm connecting to it from > anywhere I want (even my home, which is over 10km away, but if I wanted, > anywhere in the world), and right now I'm sitting at a Windows machine in my > school. Also, the connection is forwarded through an SSH encrypted tunnel, so > there's no way somebody can take a peek at my VNC desktop. My work is stored > and executed on the powerful server and available to me from anywhere I want. > > In other words, except for sound-integration (which is just a matter of > implementing some better network-transparent VNC-like system), I have all the > benefits that webapps could ever offer me, but it's: > > - faster > - more interoperable > - easily customizable > - faaaar more extensible Frankly, that's not a good solution, or more exactly, doesn't answer the same problem. VNC (or VNC-like solutions) is too slow.. at best (eg caching technologies) you can have ok performances, but I still perceive a vnc-like solution as an addition to an existing, robust, synchronization mechanism. And sometimes you don't want to access a remote system to work on it -- you just want to share the data. Eg, when I'm at work, I want to work on my lab computer, not on my home laptop. But I'd like to be able to easily synchronize a certain set of data (addressbook, calendar, some preferences...) between those two machines. > > -- we should facilitate as much as possible data exports to standard > > formats such as ical, vcards, etc. with an easy way of publishing > > things on the web > > That's a matter of writing apps, but yes, it's our responsibility. I don't see it as a matter of writing apps; for me it should be our responsability to have a set of "generic" formats to work on images, sound, video, hierarchical documents, text. That way an application can concentrate on working on a single format. And you can have specific bundles that will allow import/export from these generic formats to other formats (eg jpeg, html, whatever). > We already have all the tools to beat the heck out of webapps, we just need to > tell people to use them and not be scared. Well, sure we do. But WebApps _exists_ and are used, for various reasons I tried to list. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's the reality.. :-) -- Nicolas Roard "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -- Douglas Adams -- Nicolas Roard "I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -- Douglas Adams _______________________________________________ Etoile-dev mailing list [email protected] https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/etoile-dev
