One thing that Tony didn't tell us was what he used to burn the CD.
If you extract and burn with EAC, then you should set a read and a write
offset.  Once those are correct, you will be extracting exact copies.

If you extract with EAC but burn with something else, you must use EAC's
combined read/write offset...and you will never get exact copies.  They'll
be damn close (having missing or repeated samples)...but never exact.

YMMV...if you don't do that much extracting and burning, use EAC for both.
Personally, based on anecdotal info, EAC isn't the best for burning (the
developer himself will tell you that he doesn't put much effort into the
burning engine, since he was having problems getting accurate documentation
from burner vendors).  I use EAC to extract and Feurio! to burn...and live
with the repeated samples for the few discs that I end up extracting.

Wherever he goes, the people all complain...

Rama



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Wilbur
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 5:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [etree] Re: today's two newbie EAC help requests


Tony discovered he needed to config his offset, and got it right:

>-I had some WAV files on my hard drive
>-I wrote them to CD
>-I used EAC to extract the files
>-I compared the first version of the WAV to
>    the copy extracted by EAC using EAC?s
>    ?compare WAVs? feature.  I got this:
>Track 1 of the CD:
>Error type: 135 repeated samples (on the 2nd gen file)
>Other tracks of the CD:
>Error type: 135 missing samples (on the 1st gen file)
>I poked around the EAC documentation, which I didn?t think was particularly
>easy to access.  Only half-grasping what I was doing, I changed the ?Read
>sample offset correction value? to 135.  Then I re-extracted the files from
>CD.  This time the ?compare WAV? reported no errors.
>
>So my questions:
>
>How important is this?

Debatable.  By etree/audiophile standards, it is clearly "required."  If
you don't archive your shns as data (which you should), even a 100% quality
re-EAC'ing of the wavs from an etree shn won't produce identical md5s
because of the shuffling of the data 135 samples ahead/behind, whereas with
proper offset correction you theoretically can produce shns identical to
the originals.  ***But you oughta just archive the original shns as data so
you don't have to mess around with EAC so often.***  Beyond that issue of
replicating the original shn, one's own uncorrected offsets almost
certainly will not have any audible consequences in the audio generation
you create, since we're dealing with such minute increments of time
here.  However, there is a concern in trading circles that over generations
of uncorrected extraction and burning, bits of signal could be lost at the
beginning or end of tracks due to the cumulation of offset-related movement
of the data over many gens.  The philosophical debate over the probability
of this actually occurring (and, if it does occur, the implications for
Western Civilization as we know it) could dwarf Tom & Jeff's discourse, and
I hope I haven't sparked it just now.  I'd invoke H**tler to cut it off
before it begins, but PJP's link says deliberate invocation of Godwin's Law
bars its implementation.

So back to the short answer:  How important?  Around here, generally
considered very important.  YMMV.

>If it?s important, do most people who trade live music know about this?  It
>feels like I had to dig a bit to figure it out.  Should it be mentioned in
>the Etree FAQ?

It should, be in the FAQ and it is, tho' perhaps not as clearly as it
should be.  The key resource on offset correction is Dick's Unofficial EAC
Page,  http://pages.cthome.net/homepage/eac/setup.htm ,it's listed on
etree's EAC page.  Etree's CDR FAQ mentions it too, tho' (hey webguys!) not
with a hot link, which would help:  "For additional information and EAC
troubleshouting, check out Dick's Unofficial EAC Page."

BUT TONY, YOU SHOULDN'T BE NEEDING TO EXTRACT DOWNLOADED SHOWS.  Burn the
shns as data to archive discs before you expand them to wav on your hard
drive and blow away the shns.  Put those away safely and you'll never have
to EAC downloaded shows.  One of the reasons EAC isn't covered in great
detail in the FAQs is that etree is about shn, the trading and downloading
takes place in shn, and most of us are only very infrequently having to use
EAC to extract the occasional audio show that we couldn't track down in shn.

At 01:21 PM 3/25/2002, Adam wrote:
>Hello. I have been trying to configure the offsets of
>EAC for the last 3 hours to no avail!  I have read the
>webpages listed at etree.org and Im just stuck. I
>followed all of the instructions, and when I extract I
>always get either 99.8 or 99.9 track quality. I want
>to get 100% .

Your offsets may be fine, and almost certainly are not the cause of those
track quality readings.  If you've run the "compare' wav drill laid out at
http://pages.cthome.net/homepage/eac/setup.htm , and it comes up no
missing/added samples, your offset is set ok.

Those barely sub-100% quality readings are a yellow flag warning that EAC
had to back up and re-read some sectors to satisfy itself it was getting
the goods right.  Andre, creator of EAC, sez in his (relatively new)
official FAQ:

>Q: What does the Track Quality really mean? A few times I get 99.7% or
>97.5%. But there are no suspicious position reported. A: When you get
>99.7% and so on, that means that a bad sector was found, but the secure
>mode has corrected it - from 16 times of grabbing the sector, there were 8
>or more identical results. So it only indicates read problems. It is the
>ratio between the number of minimum reads needed to perform the extraction
>and the number of reads that were actually performed. 100% will only occur
>when the CD was extracted without any rereads on errors. ONLY when there
>are suspicious positions reported, there are really uncorrectable read
>errors in the resulting audio file.

   Far as I know there isn't anything you can tweak in your EAC settings to
bring that number up to 100%.  It's more than likely a function of CD
reader compatibility.  Some CD drives read CDR more accurately and quickly
than others, and this gets reflected in their EAC performance.   My old
Teac drive got marginal performance under EAC, and for about $40 I replaced
it with an Afree 56x, which gets good reviews here and elsewhere on EAC
performance.  Goes much faster under EAC now and those 99.9%'ers are much
rarer.  But apparently 99.x% isn't a big problem so long as EAC does not
report suspicious positions.

All of this can be largely avoided by archiving your shns to disc as data
upon receipt, so you never have to re-extract those shows.  Then you only
have to EAC shows you unavoidably acquired in audio with no shns.

wilbur


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