Hi Philipp and all the European Ultimate fanatics that are already on this new mailing list,
>From my perspective, I'm not sure that writing such a long email about Game Advisors is the best way to avoid another discussion about them. Philipp, you wrote this: > 1) *"I don't agree with the whole "Ultimate and the Olympics" framing. > Who actually believes in Ultimate making it into the Olympics in the next > few years? And if so, who actually wants to see "Ultimate 4s" there? > Personally, I do not."* It is not because you don't agree with the whole "Olympics" framing that it is not a reality. Also, it is not because you don't believe that Ultimate will make it into the Olympics in the next few years, or that you don't like "Ultimate 4s", that WFDF will change their main goal, which is to try to go to the Olympics at (almost) all costs. https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1138524/wfdf-continue-olympic-quest Rü, who was WFDF Ultimate Chair at that time, explained it pretty well recently, in a reply to one of your emails (thanks Rü for this secret and unknown official part of the history of the WFDF Officials/GA's): *(...) "In 2009 ramping up for World Games 2009 the Olympic committee addressed us that they do not believe that a high level sports event can be run with self-refereeing. * *We had lengthy discussions with them and were threatened to be kicked out of the Olympic movement. * *Luckily with Pottsy as WFDF President on my side we decided that we would not sacrifice the heart of our sport (Rule Number 1) and stood up to the Giant of the IOC and did not give in (despite the pressure from some very strong organization). * *We told them that we would not give up the Olympic Spirit and could persuade them to stay self-refereed. * *We did however need a solution for the spectators and the IOC to relay which calls were made on the field and for the one flay in our Idea of self-refereeing: What if the players - who are the referees - could not see the crucial facts ( i.e. Line calls, was I in or out)* *Therefore we introduced for the first time the Game Officials and invented introduced the hand signals. (...)* So, those WFDF Game Officials, the ancestors of the GA's, were first introduced only for the World Games 2009, because of the IOC requests. That is a fact. They were called "Line Assistants" at that time. They were not used in WFDF sanctioned Championships. If it worked well with them at the WG 2009, it was not the case 4 years later during the end of the bronze medal game of the WG in Cali (25 July to 5 August 2013), still in front of IOC representatives... That is why WFDF decided to organise, one month later, a *WFDF Task Force to review SOTG and Self-Officiation, in September 2013.* That WFDF Task-Force decided to introduce WFDF Officials, called Game Advisors, in the WFDF sanctioned tournaments, for the streamed games and the quarters, semis and finals, and it was the case for the 1st time at the WUCC 2014 in Lecco. https://wfdf.org/files/Press_Release_-_WFDF_Task_Force_to_Review_SOTG_and_Self-Officiation_9-30-13.pdf Surprisingly, that link doesn't work anymore, but here is another one (with a link in it which also doesn't work...). https://wfdf.sport/2014/06/wfdf-board-of-directors-approves-final-report-and-recommendations-of-spirit-of-the-game-task-force/ ) It is difficult after that to not see the link between the appearance of WFDF Officials/Line Assistants/Game Advisors, and the Olympics. 2) "*I won't deny that WFDF wants to showcase ultimate "at its best" to > the outside world, but I don't appreciate the "Olympics" framing, since > there is definitely more at play and in my opinion it is more about being > of service to the players and overall SotG."* Like I explained just before, it is not because you don't appreciate the link between the "Olympics" framing and the Game Advisors that it is not a reality. 3) "*To say that it is a quality characteristic that European Ultimate > does not have GAs is an exaggeration in my opinion. It neither is an issue, > it's just the state of affairs and hopefully one that is driven by player's > wishes and not dogma** in the federation(s)." * Dogma from the EUF because they want to keep European Ultimate competitions without Game Advisors ? Dogma in all the other European Federations that decided not to introduce GA's in their own national Championships ? Is it really a dogma to try to continue what works pretty well for more than 40 years, to not open the door for a third-party who (probably will) have more and more power ? Isn't the use of the word "dogma" an exaggeration ? Otherwise, it is not only a characteristic of European Ultimate to play without any kind of third-party (GA's, Observers, Referees), it's THE characteristic of Ultimate Frisbee and of the huge majority of the Ultimate games played around the World since more than 40 years... One can thank EUF, and the organisers of European Tournaments, that it still is possible to watch Ultimate games on Youtube that are not with Referees in A(U)DL, Observers in USAU, or GA's in World Games and WFDF Championships. To end, thank you for your Game Advisor "behind the scene" view of the WUU24. It seems that there still are some problems about the mark, the double teams, the travels, the calls, the competition, etc..., in Ultimate, with or without GA's. I watched a lot of games during WUU24, as well as EUC games one week later in Limerick. I didn't really see the difference, except that there was not someone in green, looking like a referee or a kind of referee, regularly coming on the field, on EUC broadcasts. Another difference also is that I didn't need to try explaining to some friends who are not players and who watched the Final of the EUC with us at the bar, that those Officials in green are not referees, but they are there to help the players to better know the rules, and to give them their perspective in some situations, only if they really saw what really happened, but their perspective is not binding, and that is why one can say that even with Officials we stay a self-officiated sport... Because when we were watching the WUU24 final (I'm Belgian, Mooncatchers founder and I coached some players of both Belgian Open teams at WUU24 and EUC), I had to try to explain something like that to some people, ;-). Philipp, you look like a white knight of the Game Advisors, who thinks he's going to fix all the problems Ultimate has had since its inception. And yes, it's nothing new that there are players who don't always follow all the rules in Ultimate, and I'm sure I've been one of them sometimes too, but what's fabulous and characteristic about Ultimate is that it is the players who must settle all the possible conflicts, and try to find the best resolution of calls, with the help of their teammates and of the opposite players also. We try to learn from our mistakes. It's an exceptional/fabulous school of life, and I have seen it by teaching Ultimate and its values to hundreds, if not thousands, of children and adults. Like all the other team sports, Ultimate will never be perfect, because humans are far from being perfect, but the principle of self-refereeing and Spirit of the Game, and the results of it, are just amazing, from my perspective. To really end, I cannot resist to make a copy/paste of the final point of Rü's message, because it is well explained and I feel about the same (thank you again Rü): *"My final point is:* *If you are willing to accept that a few ‘bad’ calls will happen, but in general leave the responsibility 100% with the players, then the result will be a future of a better overall spirit of the game. At least until the biiiiig money rolls in. But I would hope that we preserve what makes our sport so special.* *So I want to add a plea to the Game Advisor movement: Please consider returning to the initial idea and reduce the powers of the game advisors to only supply information and not become active. (@Philipp – maybe you can take up the discussion with whoever is in charge here)* *Final note by the author:* *It is my experience (and I have 35 years of ultimate experience), that the average ultimate player displays a more positive human behaviour even in real life than the average of the rest of the humans in this world. Now this could partially be because our sport of playing hard but fair attracts those people, but I actually believe that the number one Rule in our sport and all that is connected to it actually teaches each individual by experience that being open and listening to you opponent can teach you a lot and sometimes touch your heart in a very positive way."* Olivier Le dim. 6 août 2023 à 20:50, Philipp Huber <[email protected]> a écrit : > Hello Eurodisc, > > I think we already established that Olivier and I agree to disagree on the > topic of GAs. I really do not want to start yet another discussion on this. > As a followup to our last discussion I will provide some actual data on > player's experiences with GAs though, if you read until the end. > As someone that actually participated in the WU24s, I'll give you some > insights on the tournament from a "GA perspective" (mine, personally!). > Maybe this also motivates a few players to give their opinions (if mailing > lists are still a thing for the young folks). > > *The Pull* > I think Buddha raised an interesting topic on the pulls. As a > non-player/non-coach I'll keep it short on this though. To me it did not > seem that teams purposely pulled oob. In many games the conditions were > quite unstable which makes good pulling rather difficult and given their > age many pullers were not experienced enough (are the U24 folks pulling in > your club team?). > > *Spirit at WU24s* > From my point of view the spirit at WU24s was decent overall. This doesn't > mean that there were no issues though. > From my perspective the overall rules knowledge was significantly worse > than on other tournaments (e.g. WUCC). I've seen a lot of "creative > solutions" on how to deal with game situations which were not backed by the > rules, particularly on teams which would not be considered Top 6 candidates. > Something GAs monitor actively in their games are dangerous plays and > forms of cheating (egregious breaches, systemic double teaming, etc.) which > then is addressed through the TRG. There were about 50 occurences in the > 60+ games that were covered by the GA crews. > I agree with Buddha that marking infractions like disc space, wrapping and > straddling were more the norm than the exception, especially on European > defenses. A striking illustration of this was the CAN vs. GER "upset" in > the Open QF where CAN after being the "cleaner team" on marking throughout > the game, towards the end of the game really "turned up the heat" with > illegal marking. Germany just played through it and held their offense > point which looked to me like it finally broke the Canadian resistance and > GER took the game with two more breaks in the end. I will leave it up to > you to determine if > a) having the capability to just play through illegal marking (instead of > calling it) and > b) having the mental strength to do so in such a setting > should be required in our sport to be successful. > > I witnessed quite some discussions on teams "using" the rules to their own > advantage between the teams/staff (sometimes even internally on teams). In > some cases the players were not able to deal with this properly during > games and kept escalating instead of consequently enforcing the rules (e.g. > moving into the throwers way and taking charges since "they keep on > travelling"). > To alleviate things like this in games with GAs we have pre-game meetings > with the team captains and spirit captains to explain our role and > specifically to get them acquainted in a calm setting which facilitates > interventions during the game. Often teams would use this to talk about the > level of physicality that they are willing to accept. In one or two > instances teams would even go as far as to have a pre-game spirit circle to > talk about physicality and/or explain what kind of issues they had in their > previous games and what they themselves intend to improve on. > If there are issues during the game the GAs relay them to the spirit > captains and encourage them to address the issues with their counterparts. > If there are major issues/concerns the GAs also encourage a spirit chat > during halftime to work on them and provide clarifications/feedback if > requested by the teams. This also happened in the GER vs. ITA game Buddha > mentioned. Since the player in question on the last point was the spirit > captain on the ITA team I'd like to think that him accepting the GA > perspective, even though it was quite likely that this would end the game > for them, was a result of the rapport and the joint efforts to keep the > game contested but spirited. > > > *GAs in general* > I don't agree with the whole "Ultimate and the Olympics" framing. Who > actually believes in Ultimate making it into the Olympics in the next few > years? And if so, who actually wants to see "Ultimate 4s" there? > Personally, I do not. > > I'd like to highlight two points about GAs which might not be obvious to > everyone: > 1) "*As a Game Advisor, your fundamental role is to help players uphold > the Spirit of the Game. It is important to help assist players in creating > an environment that fosters good spirit and respect among teammates and > opponents*" (see GA manual: GA code of conduct) > I already pointed out some of the things we do to achieve this above. > 2) *Functions of GAs in order of priority* (see both WFDF appendix 6.3 or > GA manual): > > - Providing information to *players and spectators* to help the game > run smoothly. > - Assisting players to discuss calls. > - Providing advice on the rules, when asked. > - Providing perspective on calls, when asked. > > *So how are GA crews on a tournament utilized most efficiently?* > Traditionally on site attendance on worlds level tournaments is way lower > than the number of online spectators. Since it is the highest GA priority > to provide players* and spectators *with information it is kind of > obvious that GAs would be deployed predominantly to the streaming pitches. > Also the games in bracket play are usually the most interesting and also > the most *contested *ones (which therefore happen to be streamed too). So > it is also kind of obvious that GAs are present in the games that are most > important to the players and where it might be most difficult to uphold the > SotG due to tight matchups and fierce competition. > What else is factored into GA deployment? > > 1. GA crews roam the entire schedule of the tournament with the goal > of each attending team having at least 1 game with GAs present (so > everybody can make up his own mind about the program and we do not have > theoretical discussions under false premises on mailing lists). Given the > small size of the GA crew and a total of 3 streaming pitches this was > rather difficult for WU24s, but for WUCC22 I think this was achieved rather > well (inquire for details, I didn't do the scheduling). > 2. if there are complaints regarding teams and/or players or teams > showing difficulty with upholding the SotG, a GA crew will be scheduled for > their upcoming game(s) > 3. teams can request GAs for their games if they have concerns > regarding their own team or the opponents team or the particular matchup > (history, derby matches, etc.) > 4. usually there is at least 1 GA crew on standby/break for each round > of play in order to be available if games go sideways (this happened at > least once in both WUCC & WU24s) > 5. ... > > I won't deny that WFDF wants to showcase ultimate "at its best" to the > outside world, but I don't appreciate the "Olympics" framing, since there > is definitely more at play and in my opinion it is more about being of > service to the players and overall SotG. > > Also, to clarify: > > - GAs do not make rulings. *If they are asked* and if it was *clear > and obvious* to them what happened*, *they give *their perspective*. > This is why GA language tends to be "cryptic", since we do not draw > conclusions, we only describe observations (reasoning: 3 persons > legitimately can experience the same situation in 3 different ways). If it > was not clear, the GA will not give his perspective and stick to moderating > the call and/or explaining the rules. The reasoning behind this is, that if > a perspective is given the players can trust that this is "what actually > happened" (under the constraints of being on the sidelines, being human and > every play being assessed in real time when often replays cannot even > provide a definitive answer). > - Players do not wait for a GAs opinion, they need to request it. > Often enough there are calls where I had a good perspective but players > will not involve me. Also, if players go straight for the GA we encourage > them to discuss among each other first (which usually is also necessary to > establish what exactly the issue is). In streamed games though GAs are > asked to hustle on the field immediately to be the "walking microphone" > (which does not mean that GAs want to impose on the players by making > themselves present). "The walking microphone" also is communicated to the > teams beforehand. > - Ultimate with GAs is still 100% self-refereed (see above). In the > end players make all calls including the final decision on discussions but > most of them value SotG high enough to take advice of a neutral 3rd party > if it is given under the conditions described above. It is still the > player's game (which is also why players can fuck it up, which also happens > from time to time). > > To say that it is a quality characteristic that European Ultimate does not > have GAs is an exaggeration in my opinion. It neither is an issue, it's > just the state of affairs and hopefully one that is driven by player's > wishes and not dogma in the federation(s). I hope I was able to shine a > light on a few examples of what is going on behind the scenes during a WFDF > tournament to improve the experience of the players (and the reasoning > behind it) and hope that you bear that in mind when you watch the hopefully > pleasant result in your living room. > > *Actual data on player's opinions* > I made an effort to get some actual data points on the experiences players > had with GAs on WU24s since a lot of the criticism on our last discussion > revolved around that. Since I'm not acting in an official capacity it's > only a quick and dirty evaluation and only covers the German subset of the > WU24's teams. > I'll mostly leave it up to you to interpret the results. Interestingly > enough the strongest score of the entire survey (with one of the smallest > deviations) contradicts one of the most common points of criticism that GAs > remove the self-officiating element of ultimate. Also the results suggest > that from (German) players' perspective GAs successfully improve > communication of game relevant information and resolution of calls (the 2 > most important GA functions outlined above). > > If you made it this far, thanks for reading. I'd be interested in your > thoughts, especially if the little "behind the scenes" was valuable to you. > > Cheers, > > Philipp > > Am Sa., 15. Juli 2023 um 05:15 Uhr schrieb < > [email protected]>: > >> Send EuroDisc mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of EuroDisc digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: State of Ultimate (U24) (Olivier Cassart) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2023 09:19:59 +0200 >> From: Olivier Cassart <[email protected]> >> To: Christian Schneider <[email protected]> >> Cc: ralph dobler via EuroDisc <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [ED] State of Ultimate (U24) >> Message-ID: >> <CAK9cGOE4V5c= >> [email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi all, >> >> This is maybe one the last use of the Eurodisc mailing-list that will be >> withdrawn at the end of July. >> Thank you Buddha for opening the door for a last (?) discussion about the >> Game Advisors on this mailing-list. >> By the way, I hope that the archives of Eurodisc will stay accessible, >> https://frisbeesport.de/thgries/disc/EuroDisc-Archive/ , because it's a >> huge part of European Ultimate history. >> >> *The Game Advisors:* >> At the U24 World Championships in Nottingham, more than 75% of the games >> did not use Game Advisors..., only the streamed games used them (+ maybe a >> few other games ?). >> It is important to explain again that GA's were introduced by the WFDF >> only >> to give a good image of Ultimate to the IOC, and that in relation with the >> WFDF objective to bring Ultimate into the Olympic Games, one day... >> The proof that it is only for the image, is that 100% of the WFDF streamed >> games used GA's... >> >> Before talking about the GA's, I would like to explain to the WFDF (if >> they >> read Eurodisc), that it's not tomorrow that Ultimate will be Olympic, not >> so much because of self-refereeing, but rather because relatively few >> countries are willing to bring a new sport into the Olympics, which is >> almost guaranteed to be won by the USA... >> In that idea, the expenses incurred in order to reach the Olympics are >> wasted, as is the money spent on Game Advisors... >> >> To come back with my opinion on GA interferences on the games, like Buddha >> I also *"see instances where players were seemingly hoping to get a ruling >> in their favor by consulting the GAs"*. >> What hurts me is that players call on the GA's for calls (fault, strip, >> stall out, up/down, etc.) where the players involved are in the best >> position to know what really happened, whereas the GA's have a hard time >> seeing what really happened on some of those calls. >> >> What also hurts me is that sometime, the 2 players involved talk to the GA >> and explain to him/her what they think has happened, and that without >> talking/looking to the other player anymore..., or to other players, they >> just wait for the GA's perspective/opinion, see if it goes in their favor >> or not. >> >> What makes me happy, is that the European Ultimate Championships 2023 by >> Nations, will be played without Game Advisors, like all the European clubs >> Championships Regionals/Finals games, and like all the Ultimate games in >> Europe, with a few exceptions for the National Championships in a few >> European countries... >> European Ultimate rocks ! >> >> *The pull:* >> As a coach, I don't find it wise to let the opposing team start the >> offense >> at the brick point, I would prefer the pull to be in, preferably in the >> opposing zone and why not, on roller ;-) (exception for Indoor Ultimate, >> where the pull should be "floatable/easy catchable", and so where the pull >> cannot be dropped..., and so where there is not one page of rules just for >> the indoor pull...). >> >> *Spirit scores:* >> The average for almost all the teams is between 9 and 11, and sometimes it >> seems that it depends on who wins and who loses. >> >> Long life to real self-refereed Ultimate, peace, >> >> Olivier >> >> >> Le lun. 10 juil. 2023 ? 12:05, Christian Schneider via EuroDisc < >> [email protected]> a ?crit : >> >> > Introduction >> > ========= >> > Here are some thoughts on the state of Ultimate after watching a lot of >> > Worlds U24 games. >> > Why do I think U24 is especially interesting? The players are >> experienced >> > enough to represent something close to the world top level and at the >> same >> > time are young enough to probably be shaping Ultimate for the next 5 to >> 10 >> > years. >> > >> > Observations >> > ========== >> > >> > Pulls >> > ------- >> > My perception is that the field advantage for offense for a Brick start >> > seems less important than being able to set up the defense. >> > >> > - Some teams seem not to care too much about trying their best to put >> the >> > pull into the field, they seem to prefer being able to set up their D. >> > Exhibit A is the Belgium Open vs. Canada game where 7 out of 12 pulls by >> > the Belgians landed out of bounds, a lot of them not even close to the >> > field. Even in these windy, rainy conditions I'd expect throwers with >> this >> > quality to pull into the field. Why do we care? The pull is supposed to >> > start the game (A beautiful example of a perfect pull is the Japanese >> pull >> > at 3:3 in the USA - Japan Mixed Semifinal) and the Brick rule should be >> the >> > exception, not the common thing. We moved the Brick from 9m to 18m back >> in >> > the early 2000s because teams didn't care about keeping the pull in >> bounds >> > and I think the same reasoning made back then also applies now. What are >> > possible changes to incentivize in-field pulls? An obvious solution >> might >> > be to move the brick even further up, e.g. to mid-field. >> > >> > - There are a lot more off-sides being called than in previous >> > competitions. The bad thing is that a lot of off-sides happen, the good >> > thing is that they start getting called. Maybe this will sort itself out >> > because they are called more often now but otherwise as an off-side by >> the >> > defense results in a brick the change mentioned in the paragraph above >> > (moving the Brick up to the middle) would also address this issue by >> > increasing the down-side of committing an off-side. >> > >> > - Side-note: My theory is that teams seems to care less about remaining >> > field length than being able to set up their defense quickly (leading to >> > the two behaviors above) and I therefore wonder why they don't pull from >> > the back of their end zone while the rest of the D players start from >> the >> > front. This would give their D players a 10m to 15m head start when the >> > pull is released. Has anyone used this strategy yet? >> > >> > Marking >> > ----------- >> > - There are way too many marking infractions and I think the world >> should >> > adapt the Northern American way of playing. Back in 2002 the WUCC Open >> > final in Hawaii was one of the worst games to watch because of countless >> > stoppages due to marking infractions. Soon after that USA Ultimate (UPA >> > back then) changed the rules to making it almost always the marker's >> fault >> > if a contact occurs. And after a while this lead to a shift in strategy >> we >> > still witness today: NA teams mark from a further distance certainly >> > backing off at high stall counts to not allow for easy stall resets due >> to >> > a marker foul. Now some people (especially in Europe) still believe that >> > close, physical marking is the most effective way but go back and watch >> the >> > USA vs Italy Open game for how good D does not need to include close >> > marking. It can actually be the other way around as even Davide pointed >> out >> > in the interview at half-time. >> > >> > Physicality >> > -------------- >> > - We were able to witness great athleticism and intensity at U24 but >> there >> > are two things I'd see reduced. >> > - The first one is late or back-packing bids, risking injuries. If >> > someone has to take an injury because of your bid then you must adapt >> your >> > playing style. >> > - The other one is holding / pushing / arm-checking. You can see cases >> of >> > out-right holding back or leaning against players. This does not belong >> in >> > Ultimate. Holding, wrapping and arm-checking is mostly done by defense >> but >> > pushing through is also done by offense, both sides have to show more >> > respect for the other player's position and try harder to avoid contact. >> > >> > Spirit >> > -------- >> > - Game advisors did a good job to keep the discussions calm and quick. >> But >> > you can also see instances where players were seemingly hoping to get a >> > ruling in their favor by consulting the GAs and then ignored the GA's >> > different perspective (there are also great counter-examples like the >> last >> > point the 3rd place game where the Italian player accepts the GAs view). >> > The GAs often refused to give a perspective and just provided guidance >> on >> > relevant rules but left it to the players to make the decision. I do >> like >> > that because it is my strong believe that it is first and foremost the >> > players' responsibility to handle calls. This is why I'd rather reduce >> than >> > extend the GAs powers and would even prefer to play without GAs. >> > - The Spirit scores across the divisions show a sub-par score for Rules >> > Knowledge and Use (as it already did in Cincinnati). I think this is >> more >> > because of different interpretations of the rules than anything else. >> Which >> > means we have to keep communicating on what the rules mean and how they >> > should be applied. The rules accreditation, annotations, explanation >> videos >> > etc by WFDF. provide a great source of input, but we need to keep >> working >> > on this to get closer to a universal view of how Ultimate is supposed >> to be >> > played. >> > - I do hope people go back to watching the videos of themselves and >> > examine critically how they played and handled calls once they're back >> > home. Maybe even try to view it from the opponents perspective ;-) This >> is >> > one of the big opportunities to compare the inside and outside view and >> > keep improving your own Spirit. >> > >> > What are your thoughts? >> > - Buddha >> > >> > PS: I'm not a Social Media guy, if you think this text should be share >> on >> > other platforms then feel free... ;-) >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > EuroDisc mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> https://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/private/eurodisc/attachments/20230714/ef78ea98/attachment.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EuroDisc mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of EuroDisc Digest, Vol 233, Issue 6 >> **************************************** >> >
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