Hi Patrick and all,

About the only point on which we disagree, ;-).
You are right, advisors don't remove all the responsibility of the players
like it is the case with referees (or almost all, because even in
professional sports, players keep some responsibilities).

USAU observers remove more responsibility than the WFDF advisors.
I think that you accept that fact.
Altough, you know that some US players, but also some WFDF responsibles,
are ready to say that observers don't remove any responsibility, and that
observers are the guardian of the SOTG.

IMO, advisors remove a part of the responsibility (and yes, not all the
responsibility) of the players and of their coach(es), captain and SOTG
captain, because when win-at-all-costs attitudes happen, it should be their
role to correct those players' attitudes, and not the role of advisors or
any external official.
I mean on the field, because external officials, or TD's, may choose to
give a warning, or not invite again clubs or national teams if they
received too many times bad SOTG scores for example (I think that the UKU
is doing something close).
I believe in the judgement of the Community, and on self-refereed Ultimate
that worked pretty well in Europe for 40 years now.
SOTG (self-refereeing) is the core value of Ultimate.

IMO, the players who play the high level tournaments, have in general a lot
of experience of that kind of competition, of high level competition.
So, they should be able to respect the WFDF Spirit of the Game rule, that
asks players, even if highly competition is encouraged, to respect the
rules of the game, their opponents, and the simple joy of playing. And this
without an advisor to remind them...

My problem with advisors are not the advisors, but the fact that their role
should be taken by the players, the coach(es), the captain, and the spirit
captain.
Remember that it is because of players' attitudes that advisors were
introduced, after some problems at the World Games (the anti-chamber of the
Olympics).

If we need external officials to remind the players that first-of-all they
have to respect the SOTG rule, maybe that we should remove the SOTG
rule..., it would be more honest than introduce advisors.
Ok, this is a little provocative, but we have to recognise that in high
level Championships, the SOTG is sometimes set aside by some teams or
players, in the goal of a medal or a better final ranking.

We definitely (should) have better tools than advisors to struggle against
that attitude.

Advisors are really close to the old US passive observers.
If you see the evolution of the role of the US observers, years after
years, you will maybe realise that there is a clear danger to open the door
for external officials on the field, even passive.

To finish, I'm happy to see that the EUBCC 2018 will not have advisors,
like the WUBC 2017, and I hope that a lot of TD's in Europe will also
announce that their tournament/championship is still free of advisors.

Peace and Love,

Olivier

2018-02-21 12:23 GMT+01:00 Patrick van der Valk (BULA) <
patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org>:

> Interesting… Although in principle I share Olivier’s sentiment, and I just
> reached out to the WFDF to find out why they are doing this, I do want to
> correct one thing that Olivier wrote:
>
>
>
> > To accept advisors, removes the responsability of all the teams, of
> their SOTG captains, and IMO the basic foundations of self-refereed,
> self-officiated Ultimate.
>
>
>
> That is simply not true. Game advisors do not remove any responsibility.
> Players will stay responsible. They make the calls. They can ask for
> advice. GA’s not necessarily a bad thing.
>
>
>
> My reason to oppose Game Advisors is that I feel that, especially in
> Europe, and in especially in Beach Ultimate, there seems to be no need for
> it. So why do it?
>
>
>
> *(note, EBUCC will not have GA’s)*
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Patrick
>
> patrick.vanderv...@beachultimate.org | +351 918 412 363 <+351918412363> |
> Skype: patrickvandervalk
>
> *www.EBUCC2018.org
> <http://t.sidekickopen08.com/e1t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7lC8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9nMJW7t5XYg2z8P5jN7d-dYbRbv2FVQJV2T56dLWFf8ZZ2yF02?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.EBUCC2018.org&si=6208734918606848&pi=146ce415-ae59-40f4-af37-d1caff83acf5>
> - European Beach Ultimate Club Championships (26-28 Oct, 2018) *
>
> *[image: EBUCC-Multicolor-500px]*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* EuroDisc [mailto:eurodisc-boun...@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de] *On
> Behalf Of *Olivier Cassart
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 21, 2018 10:32 AM
> *To:* oliver browne <ojhbro...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* eurodisc@ira.uni-karlsruhe.de; Liam Kelly <l...@liam-kelly.co.uk>
> *Subject:* Re: [ED] Tournament Partnership with Game Advisors
>
>
>
> Hi European Ultimate players and especially all the TD's in Europe,
>
> All the tournaments that you organised (high level or not) were without
> advisors, .
>
>
>
> I hope that you won't be the TD's who will open the door for advisors in
> private tournaments in Europe.
>
> I hope that you will refuse, like the Windmill did ! (cf. Ultimate Players
> in Europe FB page)
>
>
>
> For the TD's or players who think that it can be a good idea, I want to
> ask how much money are they ready to spend to have advisors on the field in
> the future (to help the players respect the rules...) ?
>
> Because if the WFDF will pay for the advisors and for the advisors clinics
> at the beginning, of course that advisors will have a cost for tournament
> organisers and so for the players, if advisors are integrated into some
> European Ultimate tournaments.
>
>
>
> The fact that it was mentioned that advisors are especially useful for
> quarters>semis>final, is IMO a proof that it is accepted by the WFDF that
> players will maybe cheat more if it is a quarter, semi or final game...
>
> This is sad because it is totally in contradiction with the SOTG rule, the
> 1st rule of the WFDF rules book (Highly competitive play is encouraged, but
> should never sacrifice the mutual respect between players, adherence to the
> agreed-upon rules of the game, or the basic joy of play.)
>
>
>
> If some players have win-at-all-costs attitudes in some more "important"
> games, it is the role and the responsibility of their team, of their SOTG
> captain, of their captain, of their coaches, or of their team-mates, to ask
> their own players to respect the principles of the SOTG rule, and not to
> ask external advisors to do it.
>
>
>
> To accept advisors, removes the responsability of all the teams, of their
> SOTG captains, and IMO the basic foundations of self-refereed,
> self-officiated Ultimate.
>
>
>
> European Ultimate players should not accept advisors.
>
> Say no to them !
>
>
>
> European Ultimate Federation should not accept that the WFDF tries to
> impose us advisors, at least before having a discussion with all the
> European National Federations.
>
> European Ultimate should be proud to always keep Ultimate self-refereed
> since its beginning in Europe.
>
>
>
> Peace and Love,
>
>
>
> Olivier Cassart (Mooncatchers Juniors coach and ex-Belgium U20 coach
> between 2003 and 2012)
>
>
>
>
>
> 2018-02-20 2:14 GMT+01:00 oliver browne <ojhbro...@gmail.com>:
>
>
> Hi Euro Disc, and specifically TDs / TOCs of competitive European
> tournaments,
>
>
>
> WFDF is looking to put on at least one game advisor training weekend in
> 2018.
>
>
>
> For this we need a relatively competitive tournament to work in
> partnership with and are looking for suitable TDs / TOCs to contact us with
> expressions of interest.
>
>
>
> We will try to deliver the training at zero cost to the tournament.  We
> will need to access a classroom space for a session on the first day to be
> able to deliver some of the training. In return we would provide Game
> Advisors for games across the weekend; any that you as TDs felt might
> benefit from a Game Advisor, and especially the later bracket games
> (Quarters > Semis > Finals).
>
>
>
> Once we have identified one, or more, suitable locations to run the
> clinics we will send more information out for people interested in becoming
> Game Advisors.
>
>
>
> Please get in touch by email to:
>
>
>
> l...@liam-kelly.co.uk
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Oliver Browne, sent on behalf of:
>
>
>
> Liam Kelly
>
> WFDF Game Advisor Committee
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> EuroDisc mailing list
> eurod...@ira.uka.de
> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc
>
>
>
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