Hi all,

Mirko, you showed a great SOTG by sending your apology.

I can understand that emotions sometimes win in that debate.
It can happen to me also, especially when I feel some bad faith coming from
some WFDF responsibles, who are, or should be, the representatives and
responsibles of ALL the Ultimate players Community around the World.

The WFDF shouldn't only listen to the "Elite" players who are represented
at the WFDF events, and who have problems to play really self-refereed when
they play at the highest level.
Those players and teams ARE a big part of the problem.

The WFDF should also listen to its huge base of players who don't want to
change the self-officiated aspects of Ultimate.

Sorry to re-open the real debate.

Too many WFDF responsibles, even some WFDF SOTG responsibles, said
something like :

> *Ultimate played with WFDF Officials - GA's who referee on-field
> discussions about contested calls between players  - still is
> self-officiated or self-refereed Ultimate.*


> *GA's keep self-officiating "as part" of Ultimate, because all the calls
> and their resolution remain in the players'hands. *

Self-officiated with Officials on the field ?

All the calls ?

> B6.3.2. The specific duties of Game Advisors are:
> B6.3.2.9. *Call* Spirit of the Game Stoppages according to A11.1.

 Not all, but only that "call" to begin with...

All the resolutions ?

> B6.3.2.10. Provide warnings regarding incidents concerning the WFDF
> Conduct Policy, and *enforce sanctions* where permitted by the WFDF
> Conduct Policy.

To enforce sanctions is a resolution.

For ever ?
Never say forever...
The WFDF already changed twice the Advisors rules in less than 4 years !
And the GA's are already an "evolution" of the WFDF Lines Assistants who
officiated at the World Games 2013.

Enough already: WFDF Advisors already look too much like USAU Observers.
Same t-shirt, just the color and the name of the Official are different.
Both *enter the field to participate to on-field discussions between the

We ask all the players who love the real self-officiated Ultimate as it is
played in Europe, to refuse to ask advices to the GA's in a WFDF
Championship game.
If the call stays contested after the time-limits and a discussion with
your opponent, BACK-TO-THE-THROWER !
Period, it's the rule.

So, at first, the GA's will stay outside of the field.
Then they will become useless and they will stay outside of Ultimate.


Olivier and Patricia

2018-03-05 13:56 GMT+01:00 Liam Kelly <l...@liam-kelly.co.uk>:

> Hi Mirko,
> Thank you for your apology. It means a great deal to me.
> I couldn't respect more that everyone is passionate about keeping
> self-officiating as part of the sport we all love.
> I personally will continue to do anything I can to make that a reality.
> We might not agree on the method, but we all agree on to outcome.
> Respectfully, Liam
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Mirko Macke <bat...@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
> wrote:
>> Dear European Ultimate players, hello Liam Kelly,
>> my words some days ago on this very list were totally out of line.
>> I let my emotions get the better of me and used some very bad language
>> while acutally not contributing anything to the discussion at hand.
>> I grew up playing Ultimate nearly 20 years ago with the utmost faith in
>> the ability of the game and the players to referee themselves. Well, my
>> stupid email has nearly destroyed that faith. If people cannot discuss any
>> topic in a civil way, how can they actually play all by themselves?
>> Thanks to the intervention of some good people I have seen the error of
>> this and, tbh, I had the feeling that something was not right but was not
>> focused enough to own up to it.
>> Liam, I am sorry. I regret my words.
>> I still think however, that FB is NOT the place to discuss anything - as
>> you yourself said, This very e-mail list is probably just good for some
>> input -  nothing more, nothing less.
>> Others have fortunately pointed the way towards a democratic vote as a
>> solution to the dilemma in front of us. And this is the way to do it.
>> It is no secret that I am totally supporting the view of Olivier et al in
>> the continuation of Ultimate, i.e. have faith in the participants of this
>> sport, (i.e. the players) to use their common sense and sportsmanship
>> (SOTG?!) to sort things out between themselves.
>> I do think that - generelly speaking - the community and especially the
>> varius country associations and its suprnational bodies are developing not
>> in a good way when they are seeking the nearness of anything having to do
>> with Olympia or other commercial venues (f.ex. marketable streaming).
>> Believe me, this is the way to loosing the charm of the game. Ultimate has
>> grown sooooo much in the last decades. More and more poeple play and even
>> more poeple at least know about it. We don't need commercialisation in
>> this sport.
>> What for? Money? Well, then I guess, many of us should have pursued a
>> different sports career, Formula 1 Racing or Football....
>> Keep the Spirit and see you EVERY Sunday (all year round) for the pick-up
>> game in the heart of Berlin, Gleisdreieckpark!
>> Thanks for listening.
>> Mirko, YeaHaw!Berlin
>> _______________________________________________
>> EuroDisc mailing list
>> eurod...@ira.uka.de
>> http://lists.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/eurodisc
> --
> Sincerely, Liam Kelly
> Call me. +44 (0) 7595 618 129 <+44%207595%20618129>
> Tweet me. @WordsFromLiam
> ----------
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