EV Digest 2379

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Electric Heater controls
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: liquid vs direct air heaters
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Commuta-Car Motor - and other GE motors
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Heater relays and elements
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) GEO Tracker
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Heater relays and elements
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) For jeep fans (was: Re: Electric Jeep?)
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: OT-huffington article
        by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Commuta-Car Motor - and other GE motors
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: OT-huffington article
        by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: OT-huffington article
        by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Heater relays and elements
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Meaningful Flags  was:OT-huffington article
        by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Crest Archives
        by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Possible donor FS lists
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) EVessel (Was Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared? Electric sailing 
an' Stuff.)
        by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Aspire weight
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Heater relays and elements
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: OT Heater relays and elements
        by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: Electric Heater controls
        by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) FW: [C-Car] 1975 Citicar Parting out or selling cheap - forwarded
         - I'm not selling - please read
        by "HOLLAND,MIKE (HP-USA,ex1)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) FW: [C-Car] 1980 CommutaCar For Sale 
        by "HOLLAND,MIKE (HP-USA,ex1)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
That's it! Using liquid cooled charger as water heater and run this 
water through the core... :-)

Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> OK, one more stupid idea and I'll stop.
> If I want to defrost the windows and preheat
> the vehicle without loosing range, I crank up the heat
> and turn on the charger.  My charger puts out 26 amps
> with a 230Vac single phase input, once the heating elements
> stabilize it's pretty much a wash, all charging amps
> go into heating the vehicle.  Once it's warmed up and defrosted
> I'm ready to go and it takes very little heat to keep the windows
> defrogged.
> Rod
> 
> Thomas Shay wrote:
> > If your heating element is like the one most of use, it has five
> > wires and four ceramic heating sections.  You can disconnect
> > one or two or even three heating sections to reduce the
> > heat.
> >
> > Tom Shay
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:01 PM
> > Subject: Electric Heater controls
> >
> >
> >
> >>My Sparrow has a (ceramic?) heater in it.  The problem I have is that it's
> >>TOO MUCH heat. (and not enough air - wimpy muffin fan.)  It would be real
> >>nice to be able to turn down the heater output.
> >>Is there any not-too-expensive way to do this?
> >>--
> >>John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
> >>Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> >>http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
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Seth wrote:

> I might start with 220V electric water heater elements. I am not sure
> how short they can get though.

Technically, they are rated at 240v. The shortest I've seen listed are under 8 inches.


Vince
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Is there any rhyme or reason to the GE part number scheme?
I have a 5BC48JB896 Series motor in the basement, pulled
from an EZ-GO.  I'd be willing to part with for a reasonable and
affordable price.
I also have two I don't want to part with,
5BC58JBS6241 72 volt shunt for an NEV
and a 5BC58JBS6248 shunt for a Club Car 48V shunt.
I would like some speed torque curves if anybody has them laying
around.
Thanks,
Rod

Mark Hanson wrote:
The GE motor that was used in the Citi-Car or commuta-Car was a 3/4ths motor
in that the end bell housing was part of the differential which started life
as a Club Car golf cart. Looking back 20 years in my files, it's a 6hp 48Vdc
15min run time model 5BC49JB327C. I had the last commuta-Car made by Jim
Tervort when he took over from Bob Beaumont. This last design had bigger
brushes, a beafier commutator and a 30 minute run time. I ran my
cheese-wedge at 60V on this motor. The model number was a bit different like
a 247 instead of 327. I can check my files at home if you like for the exact
number. Using cool operating brushes helps immensly. Replace with high
current H803 Morganite 1/2" x 5/8" copper impregnated. Craig McCann i think
is still at 530-432-5244 in Penn Valley Cal GE rep. GE layed me and others
off when they cancelled their EV program back in 99'. I sold mine back in
the 80's cause it wouldn't stop or steer especially in the rain. The Club
Car design was for low speed <15mph and not safe for 40mph operation.

----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: New ADC 11" motor, Citicars, an' Stuff



Gail

Are there any Motor repair shops local to you?

In Upstate NY here I have found a motor repair shop
interested in my needs for my EleckTrak E12.

The men were  most willing to help with troubleshooting
and repair of the main traction motor. It was not
that costly. And they know motors from large AC to
small universal types.

Pete

10/20/02 1:27:39 AM, gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Bob Rice wrote:


    My take on all this. Can't SOMEBODY offer this poor woman a REAL

EV?

Maybe a clean, turnkey conversion? God, she has paid her dues, to drive

EV,

for sure. She needs something she can keep up with traffic, and not be

in

the shop more than she is on the road. She could be happy in a 90 volt
Rabbit, I'm sure? Don't think she needs a 70 MPH car, like a 120 volt

Rabbit

,will do. Isn't there a EAA chapter out where she lives? I would help

her

fix it up, but the distance is a bit far, EVen for a 120 volt car,G>!
Bob,

Thank you for trying to help with my EV problems, but I don't think you
understand.  To me, my Citicars and Comutacars are REAL EVs.  I also have
some others, a 120 Volt VW Beetle (with less range than my C-Cars), a 96
Volt Bradley GT II and a 96 Volt Aztec.  I prefer the C-Cars.  I have EVs
all over the place but only one Comutacar is running right now and it is
the one I was inquiring about tires for recently.  Since I received
several responses regarding the tires I am still undecided as to which to
get, will try to narrow that down before another one goes flat.

snip



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David wrote:

> I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
> neat conversion.

Do you mean a fiberglass Jeep body or an alternative fiberglass body ? I have an 
interest in converting a 4WD like a Jeep or 
Sidekick/Tracker, but the soft tops leak like a sieve and are difficult to heat and I 
don't like the hardtop versions. The only fiberglass 
bodies I've seen still use some sort of soft top.


Vince
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Victor wrote:

> I'm trying to decide id a few watts of loss worth ripping apart the
> dash.

I don't see how. Sure, heating a tank of water is slightly less efficient, but if you 
have a particularly difficult to remove dash I wouldn't 
think twice. If the tank of liquid is kept small enough it shouldn't be all that 
inefficient.


> BTW, other than U-shaped water heating element and overloaded
> large ceramic resistor immersed in water, can anyone suggest a
> good water heating element?

The small water heater elements are only a few dollars each, plus they have the added 
advantage of having a threaded seal.


> Will just two metal plates immersed in salty water do the trick? 

You could run into difficulties with chemical reactions between particular metals.


Vince
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There was a beautiful Jeep CJ-7 at Woodburn in 1999.
http://www.veva.bc.ca/woodburn/1999/7830032.htm

I wish I'd been there in 99 to see it.  A Jeep converted to
2WD and with a fiberglass body was an option I did
consider when I was planning an EV in 1995.  I still
occasionally think about a Jeep EV.

I do have a Tracker with a convertible top. I agree it is
a bit hard to heat in winter but it doesn't leak.  It's a fun
car as is and I wouldn't convert it to an EV.   Somebody
in this forum has a Tracker EV and posted a little bit
about it ( or maybe it's a Sidekick which is the same thing).

Tom Shay

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Jeep?


>
> David wrote:
>
> > I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
> > neat conversion.
>
> Do you mean a fiberglass Jeep body or an alternative fiberglass body ? I
have an interest in converting a 4WD like a Jeep or
> Sidekick/Tracker, but the soft tops leak like a sieve and are difficult to
heat and I don't like the hardtop versions. The only fiberglass
> bodies I've seen still use some sort of soft top.
>
>
> Vince
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark has not responded, but I did find some info about
this ex GE employee and his EV's
http://www.progressiveengineer.com/PEWeb%2008%20Spring%2000-2/hanson.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it won't last for long - the ice will crack. Actually,
ice breaker activated by stereo sound waves is neat idea.

John, What's the thickest ice that still breaks when you drive by
with car's windows rolled open?

Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> This is a benifit with John's vehicle since it can probably
> slide across the ice with very low coeficient of friction by using the
> sonic boom of the speakers with the stereo cranked up :-)
> I seen the wind powered car from Woodburn, but imagine a
> stereo powered car on ice!!! very cool indeed.
> Rod
> 
> John Wayland wrote:
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> >
> >>We don't have very cold weather in Portland, practically never snows.
> >
> >
> > Uh hummm...Victor, while Portland's winters are mild compared to say, Minnesota 
>winters,
> > or perhaps compared to the kind of winters you had in your homeland, you're still 
>a bit
> > off here...perhaps you haven't been living here long enough to realize that our 
>recent
> > winters have been milder than what is the norm.  On the east side near the mouth 
>of the
> > Columbia Gorge where I live, we usually get an ice storm each year, with temps at 
>20-25
> > degrees for days on end. When they hit, we lose power for a few days, cars slide 
>sideways,
> > driving is all but impossible, and attempting to walk across the ice-covered grass 
>of your
> > yard is like walking on ball bearings! One year, as our house faces directly into 
>the icy
> > east wind coming out of the gorge, we had 2 inches of ice coating the entire 
>front, so
> > bad, that the front door would not open! We also, get snow pretty much every year, 
>though
> > the last two winters have been very mild and the snow was only a dusting. I can 
>remember
> > one winter about 20 years ago, where we had 11 inches of snow, and most winters we 
>get
> > anywhere from 2 to 6 inches of snow, and usually on several occasions each winter. 
>Also,
> > about 10  Novembers ago, we had single digit nighttime temps for the better part 
>of a
> > week. In the Pacific Northwest, our weather kind of rotates every ten years or so, 
>and
> > we're due to have colder winters as as happened in the past.
> >
> >>From Lee:
> >
> >
> >>I have found that 1500w is only adequate for a small car in a mild winter.
> >
> >
> > Hmm, sounds awfully close to what I've been saying. I use a single element in Blue
> > Meanie's heater, and just as Lee says, it's fine in this small car in milder cold 
>temps,
> > but when we get those days of teens up to the mid 20's and with a 35 mph east wind 
>huffing
> > away, I wish I had those twin elements I put in Red Beastie!
> >
> >
> >>For most cars, you'll
> >>need more like 3000w to match the stock heater's performance.
> >
> >
> >>From my own post:
> >
> >
> >>I used twin elements in Red Beastie's heater, and it was pretty
> >>much like the factory heater that came with the truck, only of course, it was 
>instant-on
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Portland is pretty temperate compared to the severe winters that other places get, 
>but it
> > nonetheless, can get quite cold here, unless you think temps in the teens and low 
>20's is
> > the banana belt...don't forget to factor in that awful wind chill from the east 
>gorge
> > winds. I travel quite a bit, and I'll take a 10 degree, low humidity, no wind 
>winter any
> > day, over a 25 degree day at my place at 95% humidity with a 40 mph east wind!
> >
> > See Ya.......John Wayland
> >
> >
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Jeep fans,

You can download an article about Jeep Commander Built by
Daimler-Chrysler. This one is FC vehicle, and power train
consists of two Siemens 1PV5134WS20 motors and integrated
Simovert inverters - exactly the same motors and similar 
inverters I supplied to Cliff Rassweiler for his electric Imp
project (ProEv.com). Arrangement is the same too - Commander has
both front and rear drive shafts driven by own AC motor,
so 2 motors and 2 inverters on board.

I wonder how the two will compare. Cliff's Subaru Impenza 
conversion should definitely outperform this heavy beast
on the oval track... 

Subaru specs: http://www.proev.com/P1Spec.htm
Jeep Commander article: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/jeep_hev.pdf

Enjoy all,

Victor



Vince wrote:
> 
> David wrote:
> 
> > I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
> > neat conversion.
> 
> Do you mean a fiberglass Jeep body or an alternative fiberglass body ? I have an 
>interest in converting a 4WD like a Jeep or
> Sidekick/Tracker, but the soft tops leak like a sieve and are difficult to heat and 
>I don't like the hardtop versions. The only fiberglass
> bodies I've seen still use some sort of soft top.
> 
> Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Rod Hower wrote:
 
> Sorry for the OT, but this was an awesome article.

        That article is absolutely fantastic! And it's
not OT, since EVs are specifically mentioned in it.

http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/102102.html

> ....bringing EV's to the attention of all the SUV driving 
> flag wavers. Just think, we could put an flag on our EV 
> and proudly and accurately state that we don't support 
> terrorism.

        I'm planning on starting a flag-waving campaign of
my own. It will be in the form of a series of custom flag
emblems, one of which will be the word "ELECTRIC", 
written in flag for a window sticker. For my other car I'm
going to make one that says "40 MPG" written in flag.

...John
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--- Begin Message ---
Drat.

I just bid on a 5BC58JBS6272B 28V ge motor for my sep-ex
experimentation. 

And no, I haven't figured out the numbering scheme yet either.

Seth

Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> Is there any rhyme or reason to the GE part number scheme?
> I have a 5BC48JB896 Series motor in the basement, pulled
> from an EZ-GO.  I'd be willing to part with for a reasonable and
> affordable price.
> I also have two I don't want to part with,
> 5BC58JBS6241 72 volt shunt for an NEV
> and a 5BC58JBS6248 shunt for a Club Car 48V shunt.
> I would like some speed torque curves if anybody has them laying
> around.
> Thanks,
> Rod
> 

-- 
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
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Thomas wrote:

> I do have a Tracker with a convertible top. I agree it is
> a bit hard to heat in winter but it doesn't leak.

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean "leak" as in water, I meant the tops leak cold air, as in 
air infiltration.


Vince
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> I'm planning on starting a flag-waving campaign of
> my own. It will be in the form of a series of custom flag
> emblems, one of which will be the word "ELECTRIC", 
> written in flag for a window sticker. For my other car I'm
> going to make one that says "40 MPG" written in flag.
> 
> ...John

John, let us know what it would cost you to make more than
one flag... I'd like one that said 40+ MPG for my Prius...
-Chris
 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey I'd like one each of those!!!  one for the EV and one for the
hybrid...
Will you take orders?
Michael B.

John Bryan wrote:
       I'm planning on starting a flag-waving campaign of

> my own. It will be in the form of a series of custom flag
> emblems, one of which will be the word "ELECTRIC",
> written in flag for a window sticker. For my other car I'm
> going to make one that says "40 MPG" written in flag.
>
> ...John
--- End Message ---
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I'll use solid state (thyristor, yes, for DC) switch, that's given.

I remember your circuit. It's a clever use of thyristors. Just be sure
there is also a mechanical switch that can positively turn it off in
case the solid state switch fails "on".

> BTW, other than U-shaped water heating element and overloaded
> large ceramic resistor immersed in water, can anyone suggest a
> good water heating element? Will just two metal plates immersed
> in salty water do the trick?

On AC, simply putting two metal plates in water makes a good resistor.
The water itself is the resistance element. But, don't do this on DC --
you will get electrolysis. The water will be broken into H2 and O2... or
H2 and Cl2 (chlorine gas!) if there is salt in the water.

Hmm... you want some way to heat that heater core in place, but
electrically. If you are sure that it is thoroughly isolated from
ground, I suppose you could use the heater core itself as a low-value
resistor. Connect the output of a PWM controller to the hose connecting
points. Use the PWM to step 300v at 5 amps down to 5v at 300 amps.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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This is the only body I've seen that doesn't utilize a soft top, but it sorta looks 
like they modelled it after a kid's radio controlled baja car.

http://www.rebelyellinc.com/concept2.htm


Vince
--- End Message ---
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Christopher Meier wrote:

> let us know what it would cost you to make more than
> one flag... I'd like one that said 40+ MPG for my Prius...
> -Chris
>

Michael B. wrote:

> Hey I'd like one each of those!!!  one for the EV and one for the
> hybrid... Will you take orders?

        I was hoping there would be some demand for these!
I'll be posting again when they are available, I'm planning on
creating mileage stickers for every reasonably high number.
Both these and the ELECTRIC emblems will probably be offered
in a couple of different sizes. It will tend to kind of take
the wind out of an 8 MPG SUV's sail, errr I mean flag.

...John
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Hi All,

For those who've recently had to access the EV List through Yahoo Groups (and put up 
with their silly banners:-(,
I see that just as mysteriously as they disappeared about a month ago, it looks like 
the Crest archives are now
baaacckk! http://www.crest.org/discussion/ev/200210/
(both the current month, and back through '97 archives as well).

Best regards,
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
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The first Zs were very light.  Good luck.  Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!


> On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:29 PM, John Wayland wrote:
> 
> > Sadly, the possibility of somebody showing up with a clean and 
> > straight '71-'73 Datsun
> > 1200, is pretty remote these days.
> 
> I just bought a 1972 Datsun 240Z for conversion ($1200).  It has been 
> sitting for 25 years so the engine will most likely need only minor 
> tinkering to run, then hopefully I can sell it.  The interior is mint, 
> the body is pretty darn good considering the age.  Should be a fun 192V 
> conversion...
> 
> Seth
> 
> 
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> 
> My electric truck page, with lots of photos and a 25 page conversion 
> journal.  Check it out!
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/  (no more popups!)
> 
> My EV Album page
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> 
--- End Message ---
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Is there an appropriate place to post about a car that could make for an
interesting conversion.  It's a running ICE car, so I wouldn't think
that the EV Tradin' Post would be appropriate, and I doubt the list
would be good.

Any suggestions?

TTFN,
Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
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Hi Bob and EV Folk

--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency - Infrared?
> > Hello Lock and EV listers
> >      My own interest is in a 40 passenger EV ferryboat service. 
> >I'm curious about infrared as an option, rather than heating the
whole
> >air volume of the passenger cabin.  Off season (early spring and
late
> >fall) I'd only wish to heat the driver and a *few* passengers...
>
>Hey! That sounds like fun! Tell us more about this EV, Electric
>Vessel, how big, fast, EVerybody asks "How fast" how far. 

`Kay Bob… you asked for it <smile>

I believe I have posted here before about this, but here’s a
summary/update.

How fast is easy.  Six knots. ie about seven miles per hour – that’s
the speed limit on these waters.

How far?  That’s easy too.  One MILE (one way, with a three-four minute
wait, then one mile return, once an hour.)

This has nothing to do with how fast or how far – those are “givens”. 
It’s all about EFFICIENCY, EFFECTIVENESS and ECONOMY, given zero
emissions from the vehicle (vessel, in this case. Land lubbers might
think of this as a shuttlebus.)

Here’s the scenario.  

A busy, crowded and badly polluted harbour (water, sound AND air),
about one mile across and two miles wide, with a lot of commercial
vessels including water taxis, tour boats, ferries and private power
and sail boats, about 99.99% of `em burning diesel and gasoline for ICE
propulsion.

One side of the harbour is a major metropolitan area with a population
approaching five million persons.  The other side is an island “park”
with a residential component, several yacht clubs and a marina, plus an
airport for smallish private and commuter planes.  Hence the taxis and
ferryboats plying back and forth.

I live on the island, and I keep a sail boat at one of the yacht clubs.

My Club runs a semi-private “tender” (40-persons ferryboat) across this
one mile, for members and guests.  This boat is on her last legs (paint
patches the holes in her steel hull), and the Club voted in the spring
to spend $195,000(Beaverbucks) to buy a new custom-built ferryboat to
replace her.  If all "goes well” the new boat will ply these waters for
the next fifty years, and burn over 200,000 litres of diesel fuel in
the process.

Because I am a dinghy member at the Club, I did not have a vote in
these proceedings. (“Dinghy” = small craft, no motor or electrics. Dry
sailed, meaning I keep her on the hard for cheap and launch from a ramp
vs. a keelboat kept in a slip for much bigger $$$ plus vote.)

When I heard that the Club was going ahead with a new oil-burner….
well, I saw RED.  I’m f**kin’ PISSED.  Six months later and I am still
F**IN’ P*SSED.  (`Scuse my “French”, we’re bilingual in these parts
eh?) 

And just to put the icing on the cake, the Club secured financing for
this vessel from  CATERPILLAR – the makers of the diesel engine for the
boat.

To digress, here’s a quote from the Caterpillar site:

 "All Cat electronically controlled engines are 100% compliant with
International Maritime Organization IMO NOx regulations for the year
2000. Even stricter emissions requirements can be easily met by
reprogramming engine control software. "

In other words, if they’re REQUIRED to do so, they can reduce emissions
from their engines?

In the spring, I moved to a new place on the Island.  It’s just an
Island shed, but it does come with a *high-speed* xDSL connection (and
six-person hot tub, 2-ppl.Jacuzzi, heated tile floor in the bathroon,
two Dobermans, etc, etc – don’t ask <smile>), and I have “WASTED” my
whole summer researching ELECTRIC PROPULSION on the web. Got out
sailing this season exactly twice... :(

In the last six months I have tapped and talked with all manner of EV
and boating folk, especially skippers that have converted to electric
or hybrid x+electric tour boats.  Looked at 100% solar designs afloat
in Europe.  Fleets of hybrid tour boats in Ft.Lauderdale.  Electric
sightseeing fleets on reservoirs in the US mid-west.  And I have come
to the conclusion that for a small harbour like this, for a seasonal
and limited service like this, that electrics are PERFECT for this
application.  Or at least CHEAPER, MORE RELIABLE, and quieter and
odor-free and, and, and, and…   

More icing on the cake?   Our Federal and State (well, Provincial,
actually) and Municipal governments have in place a variety of
“initiatives” (read free grant monies here) in place for projects about
sustainable transportation and alternative energy projects. 

So what I am TRYING to do is package up a proposal for an electric
vessel that promotes this technology to our boating community.  It
looks like, with the right “spin”, I could have a boat paid for with
grants, as a promotional device for the boating community…  Just to set
the scene some more, here’s a news release from the US National Academy
of Sciences:

http://www.planetark.org/avantgo/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=16102

Yet, when I approach these Government folks they take on a
“doe-in-the-headlights” appearance…

For example, the Province rebates their 8% sales tax if a vehicle runs
on alt-fuels, including electric.  Up to a maximum of $1,000 of tax
paid.  For an alt-fuelled bus, there is no cap, and 100% of the sales
tax is refunded. Yet the legislation makes no provision for a  “bus”
that’s on the water.  I’ve written our Provincial Minister for the
Environment requesting his help in amending the legislation and his
response was… well, he didn’t reply. (I’ve since found out he is by all
accounts a DICK HEAD... (Hi Chris!))

Our provincial Minister of Finance pointed out that the legislation
(sales tax rebate) makes no provision for boats… well, Duh…

The worst aspect of all is of course the members of the boating
community.  Do I have to tell you EV guys this?  You KNOW what I am
talking about, of course…  The mindset of “tradition” is even more
entrenched in the boating world…

I’m sorry if this has been so much verbal diarrhea.  I hope that in
some way I am just reiterating much of what you guys have been tapping
about here all along, and you will forgive me for this rant…  I could
go on, but I’ll stop for now and return to Bob’s comments (yes Bob, I
blame you for this <grin>)

> After all,
> the QE 2 is electric too.Well, her AC "traction" motors are supposed
to be
> the world's biggest, but no batteries, just Diseasel engines to make
> power as needed, more the merrier-faster. After all she doesn't hafta
"Plane
> off" - like small boats! Guess the miliage is better than her stock
steam
> turbine drive she came with, a few retrofits ago.

       Given the needs of her “house power”, I suspect that propulsion
runs a distant second to her needs overall…  
 
>      Of course, think "Displacement hull, like a sailboat. Have had
> delightful electric launch rides on the CT river,all you hear is the
> boat slipping through the water and all the #$%^& mechanical RACKET
from
> everybody else out there.

       YES. THINK DISPLACEMENT.     None of this planing stuff eh? 
(Apologies to all the EV drag racers out there… This is about slow
speed, mass transit here)
 
>Ct runs a couple of small car ferries, mostly by tradition, ferries
>have been at those locations since colonial times, they hate to break
>tradition. Of course they keep bankers hours and don't run in winter,
>but the distances are short, perfect for an EV,
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     THANK YOU BOB!

>have 2 boats

Holly crap… TWO boats…   Bob, now you are “going overboard” <smile>

>and keep one on charge that yu arent using, switch off EVery few
"flites" so they both >stayed nice and juicy. 
>Have the hull make contact with the on shore charger when it pushes
into the slip, and a >good Mechanical connect so it doesn't hafta run,
like most ferries ,I've seen, running the >engines in gear to hold
themselves in the slip. What a waste ,all that water foaming at the
>stern while they run in place, even though it is picturesque. 

Hehe… Picturesque is for tourists Bob. F**k’em….  You’re thinking
larger craft too, I guess.  Most of the smallish ferryboats/taxis
`round these parts are alongside ½ of every hour…

>Thing only hasta run about 10 minutes per crossing. HMMM?? Buy the
franchise from the
> state? They probably would like to get rid of it. They don't make
money, EVen
> though they charge buck an a half for a car 75 sense per walk -on.
State of
> CT would lose money if they ran the Casinoes, I'm SURE! They don't,
break for
> the taxpayers! The "Indians" have that franchise 'round here.Do very
nicely, thank you!

Hehe <again>… yeah… well, you’re right. Just that again, I’m focused on
smaller harbours where the taxi/ferryboats are ppl-only, not vehicles… 
    

> >      I figured the heating could be "zoned" by turning on/off
several
> > overhead electric infrareds, as needed.
> 
>      Howbout painting the Deck over head black or other dark color?
> Passive solar? For sunny daze. Change to white in summer.

      Good idea I suppose. Thanks!
 
>Guess you could heat like hell, while uploading and downloading
> at the pier, via shore power? Hundreds of amps in to a water tank for
the
> crossing, with basebored hot water heat in the cabin?

      So, IR would be NG?   (Note, zero response on this (IR) idea from
others here? &#61516;)
 
>Whole new ball game, this EVessel  thing, fun thinking about it. 
Guess
>regen braking is a non endity<g>!
>Sailya
>Bob

Hehe (AGAIN!)… you kid about braking Bob, but we’re talking a heavy
EVessel here <batts!!!>  Yeah, no regen, but the ability to reverse the
props and STOP is kinda important…  On the plus side, no transmission
(gearbox) either with the right electrics, BLDC, etc, as the propeller
slip should suffice…

Thanks for your interest Bob

I’m at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/

Cheers

Lock


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- That's not a lead sled, that's a lite weight by conversion standards. IMHO Lead sleds weigh 4,000-5,000

You didn't give us enough information to answere your question about front to rear weights, but while the angle of the car does to a small extent change the weight distribution, it has no effect on whether it "adds up".

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

Talk about a lead sled.  The green machine or as the kids call it Freddy
Ford is a bit of a pig.  It weighs 3500 pounds with me in it.  1840 front
1600 rear.  That is from a dump scale.  I think it's right at least on the
gross weight.  I calculated 3300 curb weight.  Take 250 my weight from 3500
that and that is 3250.  Not bad for an educated guess.  There is a few
pounds missing in the front to rear and it might be because the car is high
in the back and low in the front.   The surface seemed level at the scale.
I am concerned about the lightness of the rear.  It has 800 pounds behind
and in front of the rear axle.  If I raise the front a bit might this change
the front to rear weight ratio?  A little confused because the front and
rear weights don't add up right.  Lawrence Rhodes...



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- One of the woodburn races ('99?) had a scratch built jeep. I think it used a home made frame with a vw transmission and a fiberglass body. As I recall they were thinking about going into production.

Thomas Shay wrote:

There was a beautiful Jeep CJ-7 at Woodburn in 1999.
http://www.veva.bc.ca/woodburn/1999/7830032.htm

I wish I'd been there in 99 to see it.  A Jeep converted to
2WD and with a fiberglass body was an option I did
consider when I was planning an EV in 1995.  I still
occasionally think about a Jeep EV.

I do have a Tracker with a convertible top. I agree it is
a bit hard to heat in winter but it doesn't leak.  It's a fun
car as is and I wouldn't convert it to an EV.   Somebody
in this forum has a Tracker EV and posted a little bit
about it ( or maybe it's a Sidekick which is the same thing).

Tom Shay

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Jeep?


David wrote:

I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
neat conversion.

Do you mean a fiberglass Jeep body or an alternative fiberglass body ? I

have an interest in converting a 4WD like a Jeep or

Sidekick/Tracker, but the soft tops leak like a sieve and are difficult to

heat and I don't like the hardtop versions. The only fiberglass

bodies I've seen still use some sort of soft top.


Vince




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Will just two metal plates immersed in salty water do the trick?
You could run into difficulties with chemical reactions between particular metals.

Not to mention electrolysis. Of course I understand that when the hydrogen and oxygen recombine it gives off some heat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have a web page but I chose it since all the batteries can be placed
underneath since there are body lift kits and suspension lift kits
available. It makes a much nicer conversion than the last car (geo metro)
where most of the batteries had to go in where the rear seat was for
stability. With batts more low and centered it handles well. It's a 96' Geo
Tracker and i used a 3" body lift kit from www.calmini.com. Inspection
hatches are 1" above the floor for 14 US8VgC's. Two batts had to go up front
with my 1200A igbt controller, pfc charger and battery scanner.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:09 PM
Subject: Electric Jeep?


> Is it your Jeep that is electric? I haven't heard of many Jeep
> conversions. Do you have a web page for it? Thanks.
>
> I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
> neat conversion.
>
> --- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...
> > back home) I also keep the Jeep in the unheated detached garage
> > which helps
> > ambient.
> > ...
>
>
>
> =====
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Heater relays and elements


> Hello to All,
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> > We don't have very cold weather in Portland, practically never snows.

<big snip>

> Portland is pretty temperate compared to the severe winters that other
places get, but it
> nonetheless, can get quite cold here, unless you think temps in the teens
and low 20's is
> the banana belt...don't forget to factor in that awful wind chill from the
east gorge
> winds. I travel quite a bit, and I'll take a 10 degree, low humidity, no
wind winter any
> day, over a 25 degree day at my place at 95% humidity with a 40 mph east
wind!
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland

I'll second this last - I have fond memories of going out in shirtsleeves in
Penn. and the
locals all thinking I was crazy, because they said it was below 0 outside. I
told them it
was colder in OR at 20 above than it felt back there at -3!

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Heater controls


> That's it! Using liquid cooled charger as water heater and run this
> water through the core... :-)

I've tried this, and it didn't warm up the water enough to help heat the
cab. It would work if you had another way to heat the water, though.

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's another cross posting of a CommutaCar for sale (I think this one is
in Oklahoma). 

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Moore [mailto:mlogical@;swbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [C-Car] 1980 CommutaCar For Sale


The car is a 1980.  It has less than 800 miles from new.  It has been in
inside storage for the last
15 years.  The front brakes are dragging from not being used.  The batteries
are 2-3 years old and
are occasionally charged.  Otherwise, the car is all original.  The
following pics should tell the
rest.  

http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec1.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec2.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec3.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec4.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec5.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec6.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec7.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec8.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec9.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec10.jpg
http://home.swbell.net/mlogical/www/ec11.jpg

I am asking $2000 for the car.  I am not unreasonable and may trade for
machinery (wood or metal) or
???.  Let me know.  I can use the space.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

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