EV Digest 2383

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: For jeep fans (was: Re: Electric Jeep?)
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue, Comments
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: For jeep fans (was: Re: Electric Jeep?)
        by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: What are the odds? an Stuff
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Rudman reg madness
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: A plan
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) EVTV/
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Range definition (was: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue)
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: AC Vs DC ratings...
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 17) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Free Tech Paper - "Battery Essentials"
        by "Bill Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 0-60 in 13 seconds for a 3 ton vehicle is impressive. Actually the whole vehicle is pretty impressive.

It's considerably bigger (wider) than a Grand Cherokee which weighs in at over 2 tons. That means they squeezed in two AC drive systems AND 9kwh worth of NiMH batteries AND a methanol reformer AND the fuel cells, and only added less than 1300 lbs to the weight.

It might take 45 minutes to get the fuel cels up to full operation, but I'll bet you can drive around on battery power while you're waiting.

Cliff Rassweiler wrote:

Victor,

Thanks for posting this. 0-60 Mph in about 13 seconds. I hope we will be
able to beat that!<G>.

Other entertaining parts. Range around 120 miles. Start-up time 45 minutes.
Weight almost 3 tons.

This fuel cell vehicle has a little way to go before 'market acceptence'.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:57 PM
Subject: For jeep fans (was: Re: Electric Jeep?)


Jeep fans,

You can download an article about Jeep Commander Built by
Daimler-Chrysler. This one is FC vehicle, and power train
consists of two Siemens 1PV5134WS20 motors and integrated
Simovert inverters - exactly the same motors and similar
inverters I supplied to Cliff Rassweiler for his electric Imp
project (ProEv.com). Arrangement is the same too - Commander has
both front and rear drive shafts driven by own AC motor,
so 2 motors and 2 inverters on board.

I wonder how the two will compare. Cliff's Subaru Impenza
conversion should definitely outperform this heavy beast
on the oval track...

Subaru specs: http://www.proev.com/P1Spec.htm
Jeep Commander article: http://www.metricmind.com/misc/jeep_hev.pdf

Enjoy all,

Victor



Vince wrote:

David wrote:

I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
neat conversion.

Do you mean a fiberglass Jeep body or an alternative fiberglass body ? I

have an interest in converting a 4WD like a Jeep or

Sidekick/Tracker, but the soft tops leak like a sieve and are difficult

to heat and I don't like the hardtop versions. The only fiberglass

bodies I've seen still use some sort of soft top.

Vince



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
   Hi Andre an' All;

    Had to comment on this one.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue


> So what is needed is the equivalent of a charging cradle for the car.
Just
> park the car some place close and a robot comes out of the wall, or drops
> from the ceiling and plugs the car in.

      Easier, yet; You drive the car to a "Charging Deck" for lack of a
better term. That a piece of plywood with wheel guuides and stops so when
you roll on, the wheels and carbody are in a fixed location EVery time. A
pressure switch turns on the charger, which is mounted on here, too. Tried
and true third rail shoe principles can be used here. Contacts on the deck
contact the points under the car that are arranged to match the ones on the
deck.

    It works! Had a setup like that on one of my very early EV's in "Nam.
Was really convenient to drive into a spot, park it and walk away. Of
coursethe plywood "Deck" could be moved around, to anywhere there was a plug
to plug it in. I have found that I park my EV in one spot, usually, next to
the charge plug. Duh! I will be building this pretty soon, will post pix,
when it's up an' running. It's nice not to hafta pplug it in in the rain. I
don't think you can set all this up to be precise enough to plug in
Andersons this way, but whats a inch or so to a contact shoe. Heres a use
for the boat anchor Lester Maddox charger I have now,Would hold the Deck
down in a hurricane! Plug it in to 240. Having the contacts well under the
car, it could be safe, from little, or big fingers. On the list of soom EV
projects.

   That kind of tech is built into kids
> toys now days, it just needs to be refined some.  That would make electric
> more convenient then a gas car.

     Sure would! It's Filled up while ya sleep. That's what I tell people
when they askl. I say that I need a "Charge" EVery nite, don't you? You run
better, if you get a good nite's sleep, when we get up in the morning, an
refreshed, and the car is nice and juicy..ready to carry you to all the
enchanting places you want to go!

    Plugging along

    Bob

   Too get people to change you need to give
> them an alternative that is better then what they are currently using.
> Better means less expensive, faster, more power, longer range, more
> convenient, more comfortable.  Cleaner and less pollution will not matter
to
> many until they personally experience it (and recognize the reason) or the
> government and other leading groups begin to present a consistent factual
> picture of what is going on.  Without the extreme our way is the only way
> and if you are not with us you are the enemy view that some environmental
> groups seem to have.  That's not aimed at Victor or anyone on the list,
just
> a personal opinion I have of some of the groups.
> We are limited by batteries on range, and power so we need to compete
where
> it is possible.
>
> Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
> Isaac Newton
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
>
> Just tell them an EV, as rechargeable appliance, is no different
> from a cell phone. This people have no problem popping their
> phones in the charging cradle *every* night and forget about it.
> So what's the issue? (not question to you, suggested question to
> them).
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
0-60 in 13 seconds for a 3 ton vehicle is impressive. Actually the whole vehicle is pretty impressive.
and the one I saw at the Tour de Sol a few years back had a HUGE stereo. HUGE :-)

Seth


--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION

My electric truck page, with lots of photos and a 25 page conversion journal. Check it out!
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/ (no more popups!)

My EV Album page
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: What are the odds?


> OK folks, what are the odds of this?...the main hole and the three
> > perimeter screw holes my 30 year old Japanese car (that's 'metric
> everything') had for its
> > gas filler pipe, were an exact fit to the diameter of the central body
> portion of the
> > American made, flange mount style Leviton twist lock and its three
> perimeter screw
> > holes...they lined right up....exactly! I simply drilled-out the three
gas
> filler
> > perimeter holes a bit larger to accommodate threaded inserts (installed
> with a 'Nutcert'
> > tool), enlarged the three perimeter screw holes of the Leviton slightly
so
> that 8 gauge
> > stainless steel allen head screws could be used, wired up the twist
lock,
> dropped it in,
> > and tightened the three screws! I don't know about the rest of you, but
I
> love this kind
> > of weird stuff!
> >
> > See Ya.......John Wayland
> >
> Betcha it looks stock.  Lawrencer Rhodes...
> >
>   Hi All;

    Yup! You bet it looks like it was made for it. If you have met the Blue
Meanie, yu know what I mean. Sure would love to take the Meanie to car shows
here in CT! Seeing John's car makes ya want to go home and finish up the
detailing on your EV so it looks like a production car.

    Ok, heres MY wierd stuff; The 9 batteries fit between the frame rails on
a Rabbit, with, maybe a half inch clearance! Made to order. Same with Jack
Gretta's MG Midget. Looks like it was made that way. My 9" motor JUST fits
in the Rabbit's engine bay, when the whole thing is bolted up to the stock
tranny. All I had to do was weld a new "Motor" mount on the frame a tad aft
of stock. A plate with the top grommet of a dead shock absorber, welded to
it, bolts to the motor in the holes ADV provided. EVerything "floats" on
rubber, like it's supposed to.

   When ya get into this EV thing, it's one of life's pleasures to have
things fly in the face of Murphys' Law and just Work! Maybe on that same
theme, Evercells for the Next One. Although I can feel a Waylandesque thing
for the faithful old Rabbit, with 50 k miles as an EV. We have been alota
places together. Don't drive it in snow, remember snow? And crap like that,
to save the body, from cancer.

   EV grin dept. Took another engineer for coffee the other night. Big EV
grin"WOW1 Just like the train, it drops down to light amps on the hiway,
like the engines we run,  gets up an goes" Well, I said,." You run the
Acela, so ya know what electric power is like." EVerybody Sees me pull in to
the  RR yard  EVery day. So they are used to seeing an EV in daily servive.
That's where it's at in the make-a-believer dept. If yur seen every day, in
your 'lectric, they will believe.People say" Oh I see you all the time" , on
the road, when yur driving  places. I'm just part of the scene in
Killingworth, small town. Where EVerybody knows ya, anyhow.

   Comment on the other post about the Sea holding lot of power from
sunlight. Like the energy of sunlight could be captured, would supply the
power for the World. Sure would! But how do ya catch it? Solar cells are
hidiously expensive. So how can you catch a fraction of this power? Of
course conservation would help, but thats a dirty word, politically. If all
the water heating could be done with solar, THAT would save zillions of
amps. How high my electric bill is determined by how many kids are home,
rather than the use of an EV.You know ,half hour showers and endless loads
of laundry, they don't want to be bothered by hanging laundry out on the
line, throw it in the dryer! I do mine on a nice day, hang it out. Smells
nicer, too. Big differance in the bill. I should do solar, myself. Another
project, Maybe when I retire, can go crazey with that sort of stuff. Hell of
a lot of room for efficiency improvment. Today ,gunna go buy some thermopane
windows to install in the house. Before the snow flies!

   Seeya.......on the train.

   Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:37 PM 10/23/2002 -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
charge earlier than the others. If the green LED goes steady, check the heat
sink temperature. If it is getting hot, it is doing its job trying to
protect the battery from over voltage.
Due to the incredibly poor airflow in my Sparrow, this happens to me occaissionally. So I'm about 1/2 done with mounting a CPU fan on each heatsink. For now, I'm just going to have them running all the time when the charger is running. (Hook a little 12v power brick into the charger AC supply.)

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shari writes:

Gas car drivers think in terms of days of commuting before they have to deal with the irritating little chore of refueling, which means pulling out of traffic (maybe taking a different route to get to the preferred station), parking, paying, standing around wrestling the smelly pump, etc. They will TELL you it's convenient refueling, but subconsciously, they want to do it as seldom as possible and get it over with as quickly as possibly. When you tell them an EV should be recharged every night, and takes all night, they are put off.
Although I don't disagree that the frequency of the recharge is part of the problem, I think by far the bigger problem is the length of time to recharge and the stresses brought about by a short operational range. With a reasonably typical EV, you can commute to work, but you need to spend some time plugged in there before you can come home again unless you want to stress your batteries. Forgot something? Going back to get it might stress the batteries unless you wait an hour or two. Want to go out on the town or run a bunch of errands? Not on the way home - better make it a separate trip after an hour or more of charging time.

Until an EV can get a *stress-free* 100+ miles on a single charge you won't overcome this problem. Practically speaking, this means an EV with about a 200 mile range. Tall order. Either that, or the price needs to be low enough that a certain number of people will accept the limitation willingly. I agree with David Rhoden that the government could be of great service in this regard.

--

-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adam Kuehn wrote:

> Until an EV can get a *stress-free* 100+ miles on a single charge you 
> won't overcome this problem.  Practically speaking, this means an EV 
> with about a 200 mile range.  Tall order.  Either that, or the price 
> needs to be low enough that a certain number of people will accept 
> the limitation willingly.  I agree with David Rhoden that the 
> government could be of great service in this regard.

Hi Adam,

I agree with the concept but not quite with the numbers.  My gut tells
me that you could get reasonably widespread interest in EVs as general
commuters and errand-runners with a 100 mi. total real-life range.
That's double (or more?) the typical daily mileage.  (A 200 mi. range
might be nice for some, but I think their numbers are small.)

This is why I'm going to such great lengths to cram batteries in my
LeSled.  I have a longer-than average commute at 20 miles, but I will
still be able to arrive at work, say "D'oh!", get back in the car, go
back home and return to work without going below 80%DOD.  And then run
errands at lunch.  All without stress.

I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less than 50 mpc in a
general sense.  I know that describes most conversions, but that's why
in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only seen one EV at one
meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a regular basis.

I'm sure Bob Rice, Sheer Pullen and others with long-range conversions
will tell you how wonderfully useful their cars are.  (With 80 and 100
mpc respectively?)  I'd like to know how often owners of typical
conversions *don't* drive their EV because the range isn't enough.  I
believe one of the most effective ways we can promote EVs is to
encourage owners of conversions to significantly increase their range.
That puts them out on the roads much more often.

Visibility is everything.

Chris


P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual EV mileage.
Any figures available yet?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> I would never convert any car that has any rust. Period. You're going
> to put an extra half-ton or so of mass into this body (batteries) and
> any weakness in it is going to return to bite you in the bum.

Here in the north country, every car has rust after just one winter. If
your advice was taken literally, no used car could be converted, and
even if you converted a new car, it would be unsafe after one winter.

It would be more accurate to say that all cars have excess strength to
allow for rust. There needs to be a significant amount of rust before it
has "used up" the safety margin and begins to jeopardize structural
integrity.

Also, much of the rust we see on cars is cosmetic; it looks ugly but
doesn't jeopardize strength. Some vehicles, like pickup trucks have
frames and hold together despite massive amounts of cosmetic rust.
What's important is that you check for rust in key structural areas;
suspension mounts, floors, body pillars, bumper supports, etc.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good comments Chris.

The EAA has been tracking total accumulated miles by members. Right now, as
accumulated from many years, EAA members have driven over 2.5 million
all-electric miles (eaaev.org).

Concerning range, I agree with an 80-100 mile range. For the past 4 years I
drove a Honda EVplus with this range. Worked wonderful. When my driving was
long (110 freeway miles/day) I charged at work. But most driving over the
past year has been basic commute (70-75 miles round-trip daily) has worked
great.

The big problem is charging. If you have a large pack for the range, that
translates into a long charge time. Currently I'm switching over to a
Sparrow, which I know only has a 20-25 mile range (unmodified). But there
are 2-3 public charging stations along my commute (220vac) and when using a
Rudman PFC-20, all that it would take is about 10-15 minute stop on the way
to drink some amps, and then fully charge at either end (office and home).

Fast charging is needed if you need to recharge at least partway during the
day. Otherwise, to drive a whole day without recharging and then a long
rest/recharge period at night works well. During the high point, with
recharging at work, I was logging over 600 mostly-freeway miles/week in the
Honda EVplus. But my more normal commute is settling down into 350
mile/week. That's above average, but still doable with EVs.

-Ed Thorpe

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tromley [mailto:chris_t@;microtrac.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:50 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue


Adam Kuehn wrote:

> Until an EV can get a *stress-free* 100+ miles on a single charge you 
> won't overcome this problem.  Practically speaking, this means an EV 
> with about a 200 mile range.  Tall order.  Either that, or the price 
> needs to be low enough that a certain number of people will accept 
> the limitation willingly.  I agree with David Rhoden that the 
> government could be of great service in this regard.

Hi Adam,

I agree with the concept but not quite with the numbers.  My gut tells
me that you could get reasonably widespread interest in EVs as general
commuters and errand-runners with a 100 mi. total real-life range.
That's double (or more?) the typical daily mileage.  (A 200 mi. range
might be nice for some, but I think their numbers are small.)

This is why I'm going to such great lengths to cram batteries in my
LeSled.  I have a longer-than average commute at 20 miles, but I will
still be able to arrive at work, say "D'oh!", get back in the car, go
back home and return to work without going below 80%DOD.  And then run
errands at lunch.  All without stress.

I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less than 50 mpc in a
general sense.  I know that describes most conversions, but that's why
in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only seen one EV at one
meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a regular basis.

I'm sure Bob Rice, Sheer Pullen and others with long-range conversions
will tell you how wonderfully useful their cars are.  (With 80 and 100
mpc respectively?)  I'd like to know how often owners of typical
conversions *don't* drive their EV because the range isn't enough.  I
believe one of the most effective ways we can promote EVs is to
encourage owners of conversions to significantly increase their range.
That puts them out on the roads much more often.

Visibility is everything.

Chris


P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual EV mileage.
Any figures available yet?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote, in response to me:

 > Until an EV can get a *stress-free* 100+ miles on a single charge you
 won't overcome this problem.  Practically speaking, this means an EV
 > with about a 200 mile range.

I agree with the concept but not quite with the numbers.  My gut tells
me that you could get reasonably widespread interest in EVs as general
commuters and errand-runners with a 100 mi. total real-life range.
That's double (or more?) the typical daily mileage.  (A 200 mi. range
might be nice for some, but I think their numbers are small.)
OK, I'm writing out of ignorance to some extent, I admit. I agree that ~100 miles useable, real-life range is probably a significant "break point." But I figured that an 80% DoD was still pushing the battery stress limits, so I used a 50% DoD as a "stress-free" figure, thus arriving at a 200 mpc maximum. That might be overstating things a bit. If 80% DoD is a better real floor for battery life, then we'd need EVs to have a minimum of 125 mpc (at no more than ordinary expense) to get the 100 mile useful range we agree on.

That's at least double the range of a current, typical EV.

--

-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

About my twist lock power input mounting, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

>
> Betcha it looks stock.  Lawrencer Rhodes...

And from Bob Rice:

>Yup! You bet it looks like it was made for it. If you have met the Blue
>Meanie, yu know what I mean. Sure would love to take the Meanie to car shows
>here in CT! Seeing John's car makes ya want to go home and finish up the
>detailing on your EV so it looks like a production car.

Well, gee, thanks for the strokes. Yes, it does look stock, so much so, that it makes 
the
old way I had it, look bad. The Wayland made plate adapter that I built for the 
previous
120vac input receptacle, had to mount over a shaped area, kind of like a sink that has 
the

drain at the lowest point, so that brought the receptacle closer to the outside of the
car, and though it was neat and tidy, it nonetheless, looked 'added on'. With the new,
larger L6-30 receptacle flush-mounted to the 'drain' portion of the sink shaped 
affair, it

really does look, as Lawrence wrote 'stock'. In addition to this, years ago I took the
time buy new rubber door rest buttons, and I used fresh Japanese hardware for the door
hinge screws.

In addition to using high quality stainless steel hardware for the altered-from-factory
EV stuff I do, I really like to use genuine Japanese screws, washers, nuts, and bolts,
exactly like the kind Nissan used 30 years ago and still uses today....I'm talking 
about
those gorgeous bolts and nuts that have that gold-ish, high gloss look, I think it's
called cadmium plating? You can't buy this stuff at any store, and you can't even get 
it
at the dealer's parts department either, as they simply stock generic metric hardware
found locally. To get this great hardware, you have to peruse wrecking yards and get 
the
stuff from freshly wrecked Japanese cars. Luckily, I have a lot of friends that work 
at a
few wrecking yards around here...they all know me, and they allow me to go through and
cherry pick pockets full of these gleaming pieces of hardware, and most always, give 
it o
me for free...I guess I'm the only one nutty enough to spend hours hunting down and
collecting the most perfect little bits of gleaming hardware pieces! I have bin drawers
loaded with this hardware, but recently went and got more for stock.

If you look under the hood of Blue Meanie, you'll see the factory 'hat nuts' on the 
shock
towers, exactly as Nissan used in 1972, but the ones in my car are fresh and 
shiny....they

look beautiful against the royal blue paint! Even the two screws that hold down the 
hood
release cable, are custom Japanese phillips head that look nice. I recently noticed 
that
the two bolts that hold the hood latch had dulled over the years, so into a parts bin I
went, found two exact replacements, and now they have that factory look again.

I am repainting the inside of 'fuel filler' area area today with a matching royal blue
paint, then will be reinstalling everything again, with the addition of a Nissan black
rubber gasket from a stock gas filler pipe....it should turn out sweet. A final touch 
I'll

be doing, is making a custom clear stick-on decal for the inside wall of the gas filler
door that will say 'Electric Fuel Only'. I know all of this probably sounds way too 
anal
for most, but attention to detail like this is needed to show people just how nice a
converted EV can be....besides, it makes 'me' feel better about what I build.

When I finish the fuel filling area, I'll take some clean digital shots of it and the
charging cord,  a new under-hood shot, and maybe go downtown to get a picture of the
Meanie at Portland's EV charging station, and send them to Mike Chancey so he can add
pictures to the Meanie's web page at his wonderful  'EV Photo Album'.

And for those who've experienced the Meanie's sound system....stay tuned, literally,
because it's slated for some upgrades as well. Yes, it was good enough to dominate the
competition at soundoffs in the mid to late 90's, but after seeing and hearing the 
bad-ass

system I did for 'Sniffer' (my Honda Insight), well, it sounds kind of lame these days.

See Ya.......John Wayland

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote
      I started making video's of my 2 EV conversion  to promote what I
though was a great discovery, EV's really work. The first EV I did was the
first one I ever rode in . Believe it or not there are lots of people who
can not see an EV live . For them to jump out there is a lot to ask. $1500
for a motor and I don't ever know how it will go but this was right after
the golf war which was a big reason for me doing it.  EVmadness hit me hard
after that, I think you know what I mean. Now years later I'm still making
video's and they seem like a OK way of passing the word.  If I could find a
better way of less energy I'd do it .
     John W. having your car in my next EVTV video would make video 10 the
best so far by far .  This could be a tour of your car showing off the neat
stuff.  maybe  a burn out ? what ever you want to do . I would let you
preview it before release.  There are a few video editors on the list that
might just edit the whole thing and do a nice job if your car was in it (I
wouldn't feel bad I somebody steals my Idea and makes it work) . Of course I
would let anybody copy and distribute them any way the can and if somebody
can make money off them , good for them.
     Can you  imagine once a week turning on your TV and seeing a show all
about EV's . Not a sales pitch but a show showing people doing conversions /
different charging setup/ tips on driving / events / drags race's/funny
stuff(I have footage of real "gen on the wheel" people) . Things that people
with EV's/ thinking about or doing projects  ( projects cars can take years
and this might keep up the interst) would like to see .
     I would love to get a vhs tape( I would even go buy a dvd player if I
had to) in the mail once a month with Stuff like this in it .   I wouldn't
want to spend $12  though , not each month
     So how can we have a TV show about EV's and not pay (to much) to see it
,like reg TV.
My idea to do this is to set up a big chain letter (EVTV's transmitter). If
you want the video (which you can copy/sell/give away) you get on the list
and it will make its way to you . Want it now than $12 and you can be first
on the list or  keep it if you like.  If you open it up  carefully you could
use the same envelope it came in and just throw $1.65 cents worth of stamps
on it and send it on. I know there would be brakes in the chain but EV
people are different and that could be fixed.
    I could leave it like that and just be happy that some EV news's gets
out there or try to raise money with the tapes and have a "9 motor fund or
grant . Have 10 people that want to do a EV but don't have the money tell
why they should get the motor (short 1or 2 min) . Then  the EVTV audience
could vote (by donating dollars) who gets the motor. Could post the ten
people on the web site and show the score . (my mom is a big supporter and I
know I can count on $10 from her)  This last part may be what makes it or
kills it . There is also the problem of handling the money and all that (try
to give something away and people think your stealing ). I have a few video
8's and 9's out there now so if any body would like to get on the mailing
list let me know . (you would think I'd be swamped with mail for this kind
of talk but I'm not )  If it was any thing else I'd say forget it.
any Ideas

[EMAIL PROTECTED]  www.grassrootsev.com


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fast charging has really helped my EV enjoyment.  With my 44 mile each way commute 
(recharge at work) charging off of 110 even with the PFC-20 meant no lunch trips and 
drive egg-footed.  Since my employer supplied 220 14-50 outlet, I recharge in 3:45 and 
can now go out for lunch or travel between buildings during the day.

For general use, a real driving range of 80-100 miles would be acceptable to most of 
my colleges, but that has to be 80-100 with full AC/heat,  Since the temperature has 
dropped here in Colorado, my range is limited to about 40 miles with heat/defrost.  So 
to make my commute I wear a jacket, driving gloves and run the defroster 
intermittently.  Fortunately I have the ability to work at an alternate location which 
is only 34 miles from home, so I plan on working there for much of the winter.





> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:23 AM
> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:      RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
> 
> Good comments Chris.
> 
> The EAA has been tracking total accumulated miles by members. Right now, as
> accumulated from many years, EAA members have driven over 2.5 million
> all-electric miles (eaaev.org).
> 
> Concerning range, I agree with an 80-100 mile range. For the past 4 years I
> drove a Honda EVplus with this range. Worked wonderful. When my driving was
> long (110 freeway miles/day) I charged at work. But most driving over the
> past year has been basic commute (70-75 miles round-trip daily) has worked
> great.
> 
> The big problem is charging. If you have a large pack for the range, that
> translates into a long charge time. Currently I'm switching over to a
> Sparrow, which I know only has a 20-25 mile range (unmodified). But there
> are 2-3 public charging stations along my commute (220vac) and when using a
> Rudman PFC-20, all that it would take is about 10-15 minute stop on the way
> to drink some amps, and then fully charge at either end (office and home).
> 
> Fast charging is needed if you need to recharge at least partway during the
> day. Otherwise, to drive a whole day without recharging and then a long
> rest/recharge period at night works well. During the high point, with
> recharging at work, I was logging over 600 mostly-freeway miles/week in the
> Honda EVplus. But my more normal commute is settling down into 350
> mile/week. That's above average, but still doable with EVs.
> 
> -Ed Thorpe
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Tromley [mailto:chris_t@;microtrac.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:50 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
> 
> 
> Adam Kuehn wrote:
> 
> > Until an EV can get a *stress-free* 100+ miles on a single charge you 
> > won't overcome this problem.  Practically speaking, this means an EV 
> > with about a 200 mile range.  Tall order.  Either that, or the price 
> > needs to be low enough that a certain number of people will accept 
> > the limitation willingly.  I agree with David Rhoden that the 
> > government could be of great service in this regard.
> 
> Hi Adam,
> 
> I agree with the concept but not quite with the numbers.  My gut tells
> me that you could get reasonably widespread interest in EVs as general
> commuters and errand-runners with a 100 mi. total real-life range.
> That's double (or more?) the typical daily mileage.  (A 200 mi. range
> might be nice for some, but I think their numbers are small.)
> 
> This is why I'm going to such great lengths to cram batteries in my
> LeSled.  I have a longer-than average commute at 20 miles, but I will
> still be able to arrive at work, say "D'oh!", get back in the car, go
> back home and return to work without going below 80%DOD.  And then run
> errands at lunch.  All without stress.
> 
> I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less than 50 mpc in a
> general sense.  I know that describes most conversions, but that's why> 
> in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only seen one EV at one
> meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a regular basis.
> 
> I'm sure Bob Rice, Sheer Pullen and others with long-range conversions
> will tell you how wonderfully useful their cars are.  (With 80 and 100
> mpc respectively?)  I'd like to know how often owners of typical
> conversions *don't* drive their EV because the range isn't enough.  I
> believe one of the most effective ways we can promote EVs is to
> encourage owners of conversions to significantly increase their range.
> That puts them out on the roads much more often.
> 
> Visibility is everything.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual EV mileage.
> Any figures available yet?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adam Kuehn wrote:

> OK, I'm writing out of ignorance to some extent, I admit.  I agree 
> that ~100 miles useable, real-life range is probably a significant 
> "break point."  But I figured that an 80% DoD was still pushing the 
> battery stress limits, so I used a 50% DoD as a "stress-free" figure, 
> thus arriving at a 200 mpc maximum.  That might be overstating things 
> a bit.  If 80% DoD is a better real floor for battery life, then we'd 
> need EVs to have a minimum of 125 mpc (at no more than ordinary 
> expense) to get the 100 mile useful range we agree on.
> 
> That's at least double the range of a current, typical EV.

50% DOD is a good target for lead acid in general terms to maximize pack
life.  Most people aren't going to drive over 50 miles per day, so 100
mpc is a good figure for general acceptance of EVs.  Occasional dips to
80% DOD are OK, they're just not something you want to do on a regular
basis.  Beyond 80% is battricide.

You (perhaps inadvertently) raise another issue that I wish the EV
community could resolve.  That is, what is the definition of range.  The
way I define it, and what I'd like to see generally accepted, is the
distance you can drive under real-world conditions to 80% DOD, with a
brief description of what those conditions are.  No one wants to run
their pack to 100% DOD, so why report it?  "60 mpc @ 70, mixed driving,
moderately hilly" is much more useful than "120 mpc", when in fact the
latter figure was from the TdS with 100 batteries at a constant 40 mph
until the pack is toast.

At any rate, it seems like we agree that EVs with 100 mpc to 80% DOD
would get a lot of attention from the general public.

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
well put but may under play power of DC .  How did Edison think  he could
win over AC . Try unplugging something running on hi voltage (120) DC and
you may be standing with a 1/2 a plug in your hand (see this on EVTV as wife
slowly plugs in EV sigh that runs off EV pack) . Even a 100 watt light will
make a arc (that's not what was on the sigh) .
----- Original Message -----
From: "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'EV List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: AC Vs DC ratings...


> >I have seen a couple of posts concerning AC ratings on switches Vs using
DC
> >on them and the switches not lasting as long. Can someone tell me the
> >difference between the effect a DC current has on a switch and an
> >equivalent RMS AC current. I guess what I am asking is : what effect does
> DC
> >have over AC in switch contact life?
>
> In an AC circuit the voltage (and ideally the current) goes through zero
120
> times per second (at least here in the USA, 100 times per second most
places
> overseas).
>
> When you open a contact on a high voltage circuit it usually creates an
arc
> from one contact to the other.  In an AC circuit the arc goes out when the
> voltage goes to zero (120 times per second).  DC circuits don't go to zero
> so there isn't anything to put out the arc, this means that you need to
> employ some method in the switch to extinguish the arc.
>
> The two most common methods are distance (too much gap and the arc can't
> jump it) and magnetic blow outs.  Actually magnetic blowouts just increase
> the distance between the contacts by making the arc take a longer (curved)
> path.
>
> DC definitely shortens the contact life.  If the switch isn't rated for
the
> DC voltage, it might shorten the life to one activation.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I really like to use genuine Japanese screws, washers, nuts, and bolts,
> exactly like the kind Nissan used 30 years ago and still uses today....I'm
> talking about those gorgeous bolts and nuts that have that gold-ish, high 
gloss
> look, I think it's called cadmium plating? You can't buy this stuff at any 
store,
> and you can't even get it at the dealer's parts department either, as they 
simply
> stock generic metric hardware found locally. 

How did the Cadmium myth ever get started? I've heard these bolts called 
cadmium plated for about 20 years. In fact they're passivated Zinc plated. 
When I used to play with Triumph based kitcars I would buy a front suspension 
bolt kit, which came it the yellow/gold plating.

The only Cadmium plated bolts I've ever come across were on a military 
Norton, where the original bright nickel plating was replaced with dull 
plating for obvious camouflage reasons and because nickel was valuable for 
high strength steel alloys.

Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote
    I will take the other side of the street which is the side a lot of city
car/nev drivers are on (see I am on your side)
Why lug all the weight around for a trip you do once in awhile.If 90% of the
driving is less that 20 miles then having 100 miles of bats may not be the
best thing (like having 4 spare tires). It could be argued that I should
have more bats as I pull a 5800 truck/trailer on 1350 lbs of batteries .  As
the years go by I feel less and less like more bats (being able to plug in
has helped)
 I do think the car/truck should have enough bats so that its normal drive
dose not run the bats down past 50% .  More places to plug in is what I
would like (you left coasters got it there) .  If that's what you want then
it will cost you xxxxx (now you don't want to pay so much for those extra
miles so you don't go EV ;-(   The other side ( which I do ride on
sometimes) if more range would make you drive it more than go for it .I
picked up 12 golf cart batts and put them in the back of my EV Mazda that
somebody gave me . I left them in there for a few says to see what 32 batts
felt like and it wasn't to bad . Guess I'm in the middle of the road ,
getting hit by traffic going both ways.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue


> Adam Kuehn wrote:
>
> > Until an EV can get a *stress-free* 100+ miles on a single charge you
> > won't overcome this problem.  Practically speaking, this means an EV
> > with about a 200 mile range.  Tall order.  Either that, or the price
> > needs to be low enough that a certain number of people will accept
> > the limitation willingly.  I agree with David Rhoden that the
> > government could be of great service in this regard.
>
> Hi Adam,
>
> I agree with the concept but not quite with the numbers.  My gut tells
> me that you could get reasonably widespread interest in EVs as general
> commuters and errand-runners with a 100 mi. total real-life range.
> That's double (or more?) the typical daily mileage.  (A 200 mi. range
> might be nice for some, but I think their numbers are small.)
>
> This is why I'm going to such great lengths to cram batteries in my
> LeSled.  I have a longer-than average commute at 20 miles, but I will
> still be able to arrive at work, say "D'oh!", get back in the car, go
> back home and return to work without going below 80%DOD.  And then run
> errands at lunch.  All without stress.
>
> I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less than 50 mpc in a
> general sense.  I know that describes most conversions, but that's why
> in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only seen one EV at one
> meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a regular basis.
>
> I'm sure Bob Rice, Sheer Pullen and others with long-range conversions
> will tell you how wonderfully useful their cars are.  (With 80 and 100
> mpc respectively?)  I'd like to know how often owners of typical
> conversions *don't* drive their EV because the range isn't enough.  I
> believe one of the most effective ways we can promote EVs is to
> encourage owners of conversions to significantly increase their range.
> That puts them out on the roads much more often.
>
> Visibility is everything.
>
> Chris
>
>
> P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual EV mileage.
> Any figures available yet?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 05:49:39PM -0700, Electro Automotive wrote:
> they don't really mean, "How many miles can I drive before I have to 
> recharge?"  They mean "How many DAYS can I drive before I have to recharge?"

I've never run across anyone who had that interpretation, rather they look
at the longest trip they make and are asking "can I do that trip with an EV?"

> I discovered this after explaining for the zillionth time (ok, I wasn't 
> real quick on this) that even if a car has a 60 mile range, that doesn't 
> mean you can drive it 15 miles a day and only charge it every four 
> days.

This stage always comes (for me) after I point out to them that 90% of
their driving is very short range, but I've never had anyone balk at
having to plug it in all the time --- it's the cool part that you don't
have to go to the gas station to "gas up".

But the worst part about this is explaining that "well, yes it says it
has a 60 mile range, but it's using lead acid batteries, so you really
only want to drive 30 miles or the batteries won't last very long".

-- 
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please send me a copy of Battery Essentials.

Thanks,

Bill Evans
P. O. Box 848
Lopez Island, WA 98261

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Free Tech Paper - "Battery Essentials"


Batteries are essential for the performance of any EV.  They also represent
a
major investment, so maximizing life can be critical.

Our technical paper "Battery Essentials" covers:

       - Selection
       - Installation
       - Initial Break- In
       - Use
       - Failure Mechanisms
       - Storage
       - Maintenance
       - Testing

Send all requests to ................. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

All requests come with our EVA Catalog and "Safety First" technical paper.


"Anyone can build an EV - but building great EVs
requires experience and engineering."


Bob Batson P.E.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Free Offers at Home Page
www.EV-America.com
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Tel# 603-569-2100
Fax# 603-569-2900
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***********************************
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--- End Message ---

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