EV Digest 2384

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) OT: might build support for energy-efficient cars
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Range definition (was: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue)
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: A plan
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Actual Individual EV mileage
        by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'
        by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Rudman reg madness
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by "Glenn Crosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: Ceramic heating element efficiency
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Meaningful Flags  was:OT-huffington article
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: Ceramic heater voltage
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) RE: A plan - expertise and suchlike
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: A plan - rust
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) RE: A plan
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) brushes for electrak drive motor
        by "SCOTT O'QUINN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Ceramic heater voltage
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Andre Blanchard wrote:
> 
> So what is needed is the equivalent of a charging cradle for the car.  Just
> park the car some place close and a robot comes out of the wall, or drops
> from the ceiling and plugs the car in.  That kind of tech is built into kids
> toys now days, it just needs to be refined some.

Do you have a robot pulling the phone out of your pocket and sticking
in the cradle? May be in the morning its metal arm grabs your neck,
sticks the phone back in the pocket and synthesized voice reminds you
"Don't ever forget it again..."

Seriously, you only can use what's currently available and push the
envelope. It is more convenient not to recharge the phone ever, but
this ain't gonna happen in near future, so you and I put up with
having to pop it into the charger ourselves and live with this
huge inconvenience. The same with the car - live with its limitations,
or don't own one.

> That would make electric
> more convenient then a gas car.  Too get people to change you need to give
> them an alternative that is better then what they are currently using.

Or gradually quit making/outlaw what they are currently using or,
better,
just STOP SUBSIDIZING IT, so we don't have to wait to use up resources.

People is shortsighted, but understand money talk very well. Today.

It is doable, but painful and requires sacrifices (for the goodness 
cause) of those who have power. While greed rules, unlikely it will
happen.

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---



P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual EV mileage.
Any figures available yet?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://www.southerncompany.com/planetpower/ev/why.asp?mnuOpco=soco&mnuType=ev&mnuItem=oc

Georgia power has logged 5 million miles on there EV alone.

Rod


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=13960&CFID=3259991&CF
TOKEN=68467416

Excerpt from above link:
The thought occurred to me after the startling announcement that the
administration was taking precious time off from an actual, necessary
war -- the one on terrorism -- to sue the state of California for daring
to require that carmakers put more energy-efficient models on the
road... It's not just a fantasy. Last week, talking to my friend Scott
Burns, co-creator of the "Got Milk?" campaign, I was delighted to hear
that he already had two ad scripts ready to go. The first one feels like
an old Slim Fast commercial. Instead of "I lost 50 pounds in two weeks"
the ad cuts to different people in their SUVs: "I gassed 40,000 Kurds,"
"I helped hijack an airplane," "I helped blow up a nightclub," and then
in unison: "We did it all by driving to work in our SUVs."

Culture jamming at it's finest... Or at least at the highest level.
Unfortunately I could not find a link to the "special fund" to
produce/air the ads, maybe it's not set up yet.

- GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:

> P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual 
> EV mileage. Any figures available yet?
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
http://www.southerncompany.com/planetpower/ev/why.asp?mnuOpco=soco&mnuTy
pe=ev&mnuItem=oc

> Georgia power has logged 5 million miles on there EV alone.

Actually, I was more interested in annual mileage on an *individual*
basis.  I drive my ICE car around 12k miles a year in commuting and
errand-running use.  What's the typical annual total for an EV in
similar use?  If it's significantly less, would increased range bring
the total back in line with an ICE?

Bottom line, how useful is the typical conversion EV in daily operation?

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:

> You (perhaps inadvertently) raise another issue that I wish the EV
> community could resolve.  That is, what is the definition of range.  The
> way I define it, and what I'd like to see generally accepted, is the
> distance you can drive under real-world conditions to 80% DOD, with a
> brief description of what those conditions are.  No one wants to run
> their pack to 100% DOD, so why report it?  "60 mpc @ 70, mixed driving,
> moderately hilly" is much more useful than "120 mpc", when in fact the
> latter figure was from the TdS with 100 batteries at a constant 40 mph
> until the pack is toast.

"Typical" mixed driving styles are ISO standardized based on real world
driving. There are several styles used in the US, some more applicable
for Europe, a few - for Japan. Use US06 cycle - this is real world
driving in the US: few stop'n'go miles (low speed) to the freeway,
high speed (a bit variable) on the freeway, and few short stop'n'go
runs to the destination. Duration is about 10 min.

http://www.metricmind.com/line_art/us06_us.gif

I always use standard cycles for real world simulations.

Learn other definitions, this is useful for fair comparisons:
http://www.metricmind.com/cycles.htm

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why annual EV annual mileage (except long vacation trips) should be
any different from ICE annual mileage? Commuting is commuting.
My needs to go here and there haven't changed just because
electric motor replaced an engine...

Victor

Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> P.S.  I think EAA started taking data from members on annual EV mileage.
> Any figures available yet?
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> 
>http://www.southerncompany.com/planetpower/ev/why.asp?mnuOpco=soco&mnuType=ev&mnuItem=oc
> 
> Georgia power has logged 5 million miles on there EV alone.
> 
> Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Oct 2002 at 10:59, Lee Hart wrote:

> Here in the north country, every car has rust after just one winter. If
> your advice was taken literally, no used car could be converted, and even
> if you converted a new car, it would be unsafe after one winter.

I'm not talking about surface rust, I mean "skin cancer" -- rust from inside 
body panels and welded reinforcement members.  Once it starts, it's very 
difficult to stop, and on a unibody vehicle any significant rust means a weaker 
body.  Vehicles that are built to be as light as possible lose considerable 
strength this way, and I would hesitate to put another 1000 lb of lead in one.  

I'll grant you that overbuilt vehicles are less of a concern, but overbuilt 
vehicles weigh a good bit more to begin with.  That makes them a less than 
optimum choice for conversion (all those S-10 conversions notwithstanding).

Where I live, too, the road crews use frighteningly large amounts of salt.  But 
with a few exceptions -- my 1995 Honda Civic gasser being one of them -- 
newer cars don't rust very readily, thanks to better design and more extensive 
use of galvanized steel.

David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
        Hi Chris,

        Well I have not driven my EV a year yet, but my mileage since I got my EV 6 
months ago is right at 9000 miles.  The car is used for my daily commute.  My original 
 commute was 40 miles round trip which I did for 2 months, but then I changed jobs and 
now have an 88 mile round trip commute.  I'm putting about 450 miles per week on the 
EV.  It is certainly feasible for my commute, which for Denver, is significantly above 
average.



        Lynn









> Actually, I was more interested in annual mileage on an *individual*
> basis.  I drive my ICE car around 12k miles a year in commuting and
> errand-running use.  What's the typical annual total for an EV in
> similar use?  If it's significantly less, would increased range bring
> the total back in line with an ICE?
> 
> Bottom line, how useful is the typical conversion EV in daily operation?
> 
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> I'm talking about those gorgeous bolts and nuts that have that
> gold-ish, high gloss look, I think it's called cadmium plating?

Cadmium plated hardware is basically silver colored. The gold coating
might be brass, or possibly "iridite" or zinc chromate.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley writes:
> 
> Actually, I was more interested in annual mileage on an *individual*
> basis.  I drive my ICE car around 12k miles a year in commuting and
> errand-running use.  What's the typical annual total for an EV in
> similar use?  If it's significantly less, would increased range bring
> the total back in line with an ICE?
> 
> Bottom line, how useful is the typical conversion EV in daily operation?

My EV serves 99% of my needs.  I drive to work and back every weekday
(26 miles total each day), with about 10 miles of 'spare' range.  I run
errands on the weekends that total up to about 20 miles on a busy weekend.
I estimate that I'll average about 7500 EV miles per year.

When I have several errands to run during the week I might have to drive
an ICE.  This occurs less than once a month.

Longer range on my EV would allow me to use the ICE less, but not enough
to justify the extra expense/weight/complexity.

Details about my car can at "http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/prizm";.

Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I gotta jump in here.

>From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less than 50 mpc in a
>general sense.  I know that describes most conversions, but that's why
>in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only seen one EV at one
>meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a regular basis.

I guess it depends on whether you think that current EV technology can substitute
for the American family's primary vehicle.  Even at 200 miles per charge
I don't think it qualifies for the general public.  I think the goal is
to shoot for an appropriate 2nd family car, in terms of wider appeal.

When I talk to people, and tell them I get 20 - 30 miles per charge, I also
add what I use it for, and emphasize how it meets my needs.  I use it for
commuting to/from work, and errands, and for that it works fine, and only
needs to be charged a couple times a week.  The people who "get" the argument
that all it has to do is meet your needs, are the people who could be convinced
that an electric car could work for them.  If they don't get this, then
IMHO, it won't matter what the range is--they won't see the use of an EV.

Would I like to have more range?  Of course, but it isn't the primary goal
for me--the primary goal is to get the job done, reliably and safely, with
no pollution.

Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not quite sure what you guys are talking about.  Cad. plating rare?
Cadmium plating on bolts is common around here, and available in a variety
of colors (though gold is the most common).  I can pick them up at the local
hardware store on most strength graded (SAE or Metric) bolts.  Various oxide
finishes are also available, as is nickel plate.  Cadmium plating is for
corrosion resistance, and seems to work well, although I always liked
stainless better.

The oxide finished and nickel plated versions do seem to be present in
greater numbers, but the Cad. plated types still seem to be very
available...

By the way, my escort came with a little decal inside the fuel door that
said "110 Volts AC Only" right where the "Unleaded Fuel Only" sign had gone.
It was one of the things I liked best about it.  Unfortunately, the adhesive
has since failed.  I'll have to add that to the list of decals I need to
replace.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:ScuderiaEV@;aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'


> I really like to use genuine Japanese screws, washers, nuts, and bolts,
> exactly like the kind Nissan used 30 years ago and still uses today....I'm
> talking about those gorgeous bolts and nuts that have that gold-ish, high 
gloss
> look, I think it's called cadmium plating? You can't buy this stuff at any

store,
> and you can't even get it at the dealer's parts department either, as they

simply
> stock generic metric hardware found locally. 

How did the Cadmium myth ever get started? I've heard these bolts called 
cadmium plated for about 20 years. In fact they're passivated Zinc plated. 
When I used to play with Triumph based kitcars I would buy a front
suspension 
bolt kit, which came it the yellow/gold plating.

The only Cadmium plated bolts I've ever come across were on a military 
Norton, where the original bright nickel plating was replaced with dull 
plating for obvious camouflage reasons and because nickel was valuable for 
high strength steel alloys.

Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I gotta jump in here.
> 
> >From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less
> than 50 mpc in a
> >general sense.  I know that describes most
> conversions, but that's why
> >in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only
> seen one EV at one
> >meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a
> regular basis.
> 
> I guess it depends on whether you think that current
> EV technology can substitute
> for the American family's primary vehicle.  Even at
> 200 miles per charge
> I don't think it qualifies for the general public. 
> I think the goal is
> to shoot for an appropriate 2nd family car, in terms
> of wider appeal.
> 
> When I talk to people, and tell them I get 20 - 30
> miles per charge, I also
> add what I use it for, and emphasize how it meets my
> needs.  I use it for
> commuting to/from work, and errands, and for that it
> works fine, and only
> needs to be charged a couple times a week.  The
> people who "get" the argument
> that all it has to do is meet your needs, are the
> people who could be convinced
> that an electric car could work for them.  If they
> don't get this, then
> IMHO, it won't matter what the range is--they won't
> see the use of an EV.
> 
> Would I like to have more range?  Of course, but it
> isn't the primary goal
> for me--the primary goal is to get the job done,
> reliably and safely, with
> no pollution.
> 
> Mark Dodrill
> 

I agree with Mark 100%.  For those people that just
don't get it, you can give them a 120-mile range. 
They will say it takes too long to charge.

You give them a 120-mile range and recharge time of 2
hours.  They say it could not carry more than 2
people.

You give them a 120-mile range recharge time of 2
hours, carries 4 adults.  They will say it is too
expensive.

You give them a 120-mile range, recharge time of 2
hours, carries 4 adults, and cost $31k.  They will say
it looks too strange.

Finally, you give them 120-mile range, recharge time
of 2 hours, carries 4 adults, cost $31k, top speed of
80mph, AC, air bags, etc. and looks like a regular
Toyota RAV4.  They will say they cannot take it off
road or to Tahoe.

The fact is they only have to answer one question: Do
you truly want to buy an EV.  The answer is NO.  Why
bother them?  Let them stuck in traffic while you
drive pass them on carpool lanes with no emission.

Ed Ang

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the tips.  My pack is 3years old and never been used. Delphi 8
volt.  Just charged every few months.  Maybe not enough.  I lost a few
batteries and put in some used ones.  Doesn't seem to be working out.  I
just got stranded.  The voltage looked good but the sag was horrible.  At
least one battery is bad maybe more.  Couldn't get up my hill and had to be
towed.  Charged for 4 hours after getting towed.  One battery was hot and
charging at 26volts!!!.  Gotta take that one out.  I noticed two batterys
when charging(used) always get up to voltage earlier than the others.  I
suspect they have limited capacity.  I think I need some sort of load
tester.  I don't want to get stranded again.  Most of the batterys when
discharged seem to act normal.  They slowly come up to voltage and then
taper off.  I guess the regs can't handle a battery that is too different in
resistance or capacity.  It seems also that the undervoltage can be
triggered by as little as opening the door of the car with the DC to DC
hooked up.  I don't have an aux battery.  Lawrence Rhodes....Thanks again.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman reg madness


> If this is a new pack, the regs turn green to indicate which batteries
> charge earlier than the others. If the green LED goes steady, check the
heat
> sink temperature. If it is getting hot, it is doing its job trying to
> protect the battery from over voltage. Putting a Mk 1 across it to help
hold
> the voltage down is a good idea. It probably won't be needed after a few
> cycles. The other alternative is to turn the charger current or down so
the
> green does not go on solid.
>
> The red LEDs indicate a battery getting too low or the reg needs
> calibration. It can also mean you are drawing too many amps for the
battery
> condition. Keep the amps down for the first few cycles on a new pack. Try
to
> run the car easy until the first undervoltage LED comes on, then charge
the
> car until all the greens blink and the Reds go off.
>
> You can check the calibration of the undervoltage and setpoint pots on the
> Mk 2 regulators with the following procedure.
>
> If you are using regs on 4 cell (8 volt) batteries, make sure R2 is 300K
> ohms. Normally R2 is 510 ohms for 6 cell (12 volt) batteries. If this
> resistor is not changed, the calibration set points will not match the
> procedure and the temperature compensation will be too steep (-3 mV/C
> vice -2 mV/C).
>
> Use a voltmeter on TP2 (TP1 is ground) to measure the regulation set
point.
> Normally this is 2.45 volts per cell (if R2 is correct). Adjust VR1 to
> change this. 2.45 Volts per cell will regulate a 6 cell (12 volt battery)
at
> 14.7 volts. You can adjust the value to suit your application.
>
> Use a voltmeter on TP3 (TP1 is ground) to measure the undervoltage set
> point. Normally this is 1.75 volts per cell (if R2 is correct). Adjust VR2
> to change this. 1.75 Volts per cell on a 6 cell (12 volt battery) will
> trigger the red LED at 10.5 volts. You can adjust the value to suit your
> application. If you have a soft pack and a big amp controller, you might
> want to set the low bat threshold at 1.5 volts so the first launch does
not
> trigger all the low bat indicators.
>
> If you have 6 cell regs on 4 cell batteries, the test point voltages will
be
> 1.633 and 1.166 respectively. This is two thirds of the original values.
>
> If you have any more questions, contact me off-line.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 9:44 AM
> Subject: Rudman reg madness
>
>
> > Well the Aspire is turning out to work great.  I have pack sag but going
> 12
> > miles or so only depletes the pack down to 125v.  My problem now is with
> > some regs uv lights lighting up on discharge.  Is that a sign of a weak
> > battery(sag).  (Two 120v packs.  15  8v Delphis each) Also the two
> negative
> > batteries green lights light up under 9.6v and stay steady to a point
and
> > then go solid having some control and then no control at taper charge.
I
> > had to put a mark I with the mark two to get the voltage down.  A couple
> of
> > regs won't work.  One with a very long wire pops fuses and one with
> shorter
> > wires also does this but battery was under voltage at the time.  That
was
> > strange.  I charged it seperately and it seems to do well with no reg.
> Some
> > of the batteries don't need regs.  I am sure this is just chance.  I did
> > measure the voltages after the fuses and the the sense fuses all
register
> a
> > couple of hundreds less voltage.  The fuses I used for sense have
> resistors
> > in them.  Is it possible the resistor fuses are confusing the Mark IIs.
> > Most of the other regs work.  One positive battery also needs help from
a
> > mark I.  Lawrence Rhodes....
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What might not sound good to you might work just fine in another car.  I
would be happy with a Kraco and 4 speakers.
I did manage on my conversion to get all the batteries out of the passenger
compartment and the storage area.  Under the hood.  In the hump.  Where the
gas tank was and where the spare tire was.  30 8v Delphis.  The only sign of
the EV will be the volt and ampmeter pod on the dash and the Main power
switch on the floor.   Thanks for being a good example.  Lawrence
Rhodes...If I really wanted to do it right the gauges would be where the
temp and fuel are.........I'm just a little too lazy.....----- Original
Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: Attention to Detail: was 'What are the odds?'


>
> Hello to All,
>
> About my twist lock power input mounting, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> >
> > Betcha it looks stock.  Lawrencer Rhodes...
>
> And from Bob Rice:
>
> >Yup! You bet it looks like it was made for it. If you have met the Blue
> >Meanie, yu know what I mean. Sure would love to take the Meanie to car
shows
> >here in CT! Seeing John's car makes ya want to go home and finish up the
> >detailing on your EV so it looks like a production car.
>
> Well, gee, thanks for the strokes. Yes, it does look stock, so much so,
that it makes the
> old way I had it, look bad. The Wayland made plate adapter that I built
for the previous
> 120vac input receptacle, had to mount over a shaped area, kind of like a
sink that has the
>
> drain at the lowest point, so that brought the receptacle closer to the
outside of the
> car, and though it was neat and tidy, it nonetheless, looked 'added on'.
With the new,
> larger L6-30 receptacle flush-mounted to the 'drain' portion of the sink
shaped affair, it
>
> really does look, as Lawrence wrote 'stock'. In addition to this, years
ago I took the
> time buy new rubber door rest buttons, and I used fresh Japanese hardware
for the door
> hinge screws.
>
> In addition to using high quality stainless steel hardware for the
altered-from-factory
> EV stuff I do, I really like to use genuine Japanese screws, washers,
nuts, and bolts,
> exactly like the kind Nissan used 30 years ago and still uses today....I'm
talking about
> those gorgeous bolts and nuts that have that gold-ish, high gloss look, I
think it's
> called cadmium plating? You can't buy this stuff at any store, and you
can't even get it
> at the dealer's parts department either, as they simply stock generic
metric hardware
> found locally. To get this great hardware, you have to peruse wrecking
yards and get the
> stuff from freshly wrecked Japanese cars. Luckily, I have a lot of friends
that work at a
> few wrecking yards around here...they all know me, and they allow me to go
through and
> cherry pick pockets full of these gleaming pieces of hardware, and most
always, give it o
> me for free...I guess I'm the only one nutty enough to spend hours hunting
down and
> collecting the most perfect little bits of gleaming hardware pieces! I
have bin drawers
> loaded with this hardware, but recently went and got more for stock.
>
> If you look under the hood of Blue Meanie, you'll see the factory 'hat
nuts' on the shock
> towers, exactly as Nissan used in 1972, but the ones in my car are fresh
and shiny....they
>
> look beautiful against the royal blue paint! Even the two screws that hold
down the hood
> release cable, are custom Japanese phillips head that look nice. I
recently noticed that
> the two bolts that hold the hood latch had dulled over the years, so into
a parts bin I
> went, found two exact replacements, and now they have that factory look
again.
>
> I am repainting the inside of 'fuel filler' area area today with a
matching royal blue
> paint, then will be reinstalling everything again, with the addition of a
Nissan black
> rubber gasket from a stock gas filler pipe....it should turn out sweet. A
final touch I'll
>
> be doing, is making a custom clear stick-on decal for the inside wall of
the gas filler
> door that will say 'Electric Fuel Only'. I know all of this probably
sounds way too anal
> for most, but attention to detail like this is needed to show people just
how nice a
> converted EV can be....besides, it makes 'me' feel better about what I
build.
>
> When I finish the fuel filling area, I'll take some clean digital shots of
it and the
> charging cord,  a new under-hood shot, and maybe go downtown to get a
picture of the
> Meanie at Portland's EV charging station, and send them to Mike Chancey so
he can add
> pictures to the Meanie's web page at his wonderful  'EV Photo Album'.
>
> And for those who've experienced the Meanie's sound system....stay tuned,
literally,
> because it's slated for some upgrades as well. Yes, it was good enough to
dominate the
> competition at soundoffs in the mid to late 90's, but after seeing and
hearing the bad-ass
>
> system I did for 'Sniffer' (my Honda Insight), well, it sounds kind of
lame these days.
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
>
>
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Hello to All,

Lee Hart wrote:

> The gold coating might be brass, or possibly "iridite" or zinc chromate.

I know what brass is Lee, give me a bit of credit here :-)  I have separate bins for my
brass, copper, chrome plated, and stainless nuts, bolts, and washers... all very
distinguishable from each other. The Japanese hardware is way nicer looking than brass,
and there's a bit of that 'oil on water' type of radiance to the gold colored finish. 
Now
that you've mentioned it, zinc chromate rings a bell.

Paul Compton wrote:

>How did the Cadmium myth ever get started? I've heard these bolts called
>cadmium plated for about 20 years.

You know, I'm not quite sure, other than I've heard others call it that...this is why I
wrote, "...that gold-ish, high gloss look, I think it's called cadmium plating?" I 
freely
admit I don't know the exact name for the plating, but I do know that it's very durable
and has a very sanitary look, and I'd love to know exactly what to call it.

>In fact they're passivated Zinc plated.

Would that be the same 'zinc chromate' Lee mentions?

See Ya........John Wayland
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All of this discussion on "miles per charge" versus "charge time" versus
"battery weight" seems to argue for a hybrid, perhaps similar to the
fuel-cell / battery approach used at Coval H2 Partners
http://www.covalh2000.com/

This allows the vehicle to be configured with a battery pack for "nominal"
ranges, with added range from the alternative power source.

/Glenn Crosby/
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Challenge to someone with more time and money than I:

Use a bunch of TE coolers as the heating element, but run the air
through the cold side first to dehumidify it, then the hot side to heat
it. The A/C in my gasser defrosts the windshield in SECONDS, though once
you put it on you tend to have to keep it on because it overcools the
glass. Make sure you catch the drips and route them externally or the
humidity won't go away.

I have little or no hope of packaging it in the space available in my
Midget anyway.

- GT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Shay [mailto:tshay@;ix.netcom.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
> 
> 
> The coat and boots and other cold weather clothing can
> only solve half the problem.  Defogging and defrosting the 
> windows needs heat applied to the glass.  Yes, the coat 
> sleeves do work as defoggers, but not nearly as well as warm 
> air directed at the glass.  This isn't just a comfort issue, 
> it's a safety issue, too.  In most venues,  there are laws 
> about driving with obscured windows and sometimes citations 
> are issued.
> 
> Tom Shay
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True; but the purchasers of said construction and agriculture got their
money from OIL. And, they ARE teaching conservation in grade school.

Regarding the automotive market, fashions change periodically... Let's
just speed up the process.

And as a wise Arab oil minister has said, "The stone age didn't end
because we ran out of stones, and the oil age won't end because we run
out of oil."

- GT

And I do apologize for the WOT nature of this post.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:peterv@;peoplepc.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 4:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Meaningful Flags was:OT-huffington article
> 
> 
> The biggest problem with this whole idea (aside from it being WAY off 
> topic) is that Osam's fortune doesn't come from oil, it comes from 
> construction and agriculture.
> 
> Besides, even if everyone traded in their SUV for a Geo 
> Metro, we would 
> still need foriegn oil.  It best to stick to the truth, SUVs, 
> etc. waste 
> a precious resource that can NOT be replinished.  
> 
> Either way it's pretty fruitless, americans (for the most part) don't 
> care about the rest of the world or even about their own unborn 
> grandkids.  Heck some don't even care that much about their own kids.
> 
> If you want to start a sucessful campain, start pushing to have them 
> teach conservation in grade school. It won't effect today's 
> attitudes, 
> but it will make a huge difference 20 years from now.
> 
> 
> >How about bumper stickers: "YOU support Osama, one gallon at 
> the time" 
> >and "YOU financed 9/11, one gallon at the time"? They should 
> be visible 
> >to any (gas) trailing vehicle in traffic.
> >
> >Victor
> >
> >John Bryan wrote:
> >
> >>Christopher Meier wrote:
> >>
> >>>let us know what it would cost you to make more than
> >>>one flag... I'd like one that said 40+ MPG for my Prius... -Chris
> >>>
> >>Michael B. wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hey I'd like one each of those!!!  one for the EV and one for the 
> >>>hybrid... Will you take orders?
> >>>
> >>        I was hoping there would be some demand for these! I'll be 
> >>posting again when they are available, I'm planning on creating 
> >>mileage stickers for every reasonably high number. Both 
> these and the 
> >>ELECTRIC emblems will probably be offered in a couple of different 
> >>sizes. It will tend to kind of take the wind out of an 8 MPG SUV's 
> >>sail, errr I mean flag.
> >>
> >>...John
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
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I tested some ceramics from a space heater on my 240VAC dryer outlet
with no apparent problem (Your mileage may vary). Your switching relays
may be the weak link. I got a pair of Crydom solid state relays, so I
can have a low and hi setting for the elements running in parallel.

Careful if running these in series; as the resistance changes, if they
go out of balance one circuit will hog all the voltage via positive
feedback and you'd get lousy power out of the set.

- GT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Coate [mailto:jbc@;coate.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:56 PM
> To: EV List
> Subject: Ceramic heater voltage
> 
> 
> With all this talk about heaters (and the first snow flakes
> of the season), it's time I get my heater hooked back up.  
> How far can the voltage be pushed? The ceramic heater in my 
> truck was installed by the previous owner, from an EV 
> supplier so presumably the "good stuff" (but not Randy's 
> "great stuff :-). It was run on 120v pack before (and seemed 
> a little wimpy). Now I have a 176 volt pack.
> 
> Can I push the heater that far? Will it just self-limit the
> temperature, or go up in a puff of smoke? My only other 
> choice would be to use a 240 volt unit (or two 120's in 
> series), but that then goes pretty far the other way with 
> major under voltage.
> 
> Last winter was very mild and I just used the warm jacket
> method, but probably won't be that lucky this year.
> 
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
> 
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Chris Tromley wrote:
> I'm building my LeSled with the assumption it will be a 
> pretty nice EV, even though I'm very new at this.  I know there
> will be some things I'd do differently given a second chance,
> but I'm betting it will be my main EV for many years to come.
> I can only do that because I've messed around with cars most of
> my life.  I have a pretty clear understanding
> of what I can or cannot do.
> 
> Even if you don't have the direct personal experience to pull it off,
> you might have access to a good consultant or two and a good sense of
> what's doable and what's not.

Thanks for making me think about this.

I spent many years messing around with motorbikes, even stripped an
engine and rebuilt it once.  Thing is, once was enough - I was never
interested in rebuilding any more engines.  So I think maybe your
approach will also suit me, and it's also what my original plan was.
Do it once, and do it reasonably well.

I have recently joined a local car club.  I said I wanted to convert
a car to electric, and nobody laughed out loud, and some were actually
interested, so I joined.  I will have access to help, and also (very
useful) the club has a process for getting a modified car certified.
(www.constructorscarclub.org.nz)

> The difficulty I see in your proof of concept idea is that 
> you might end up with a *lot* of time sunk in a car that's *almost*
> good enough to keep.  But not quite, and it might be near impossible
> to get rid of.

I haven't really thought of what I would do with it in the long run.
I *know* that I won't be able to sell any EV for any sort of sensible
money.  I would probably let a friend have it as a "permanent loan".

> Of course you could also plan on a really quick-and-dirty Bluebird
> conversion.  Then recover the EV parts from it when you're 
> done learning and simply junk it.

Or put an ICE back in it, throw away the rear two-thirds and turn it
into a pusher, in the style of Mr Sharkey's.
(www.austinev.org/evalbum/304.html)

> Time and ability.  How much do you have of each?

Very little time.  I'm probably going to have only Sunday afternoons
to work on it.  I'm resigned to it taking "forever" which is why I
really need a low-pollution car to drive while I'm doing it.

As for ability, yes I think I have enough.  I know motorbikes aren't
cars, but with help from the list and from car club people I'm sure
I can get there.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The secret to getting ahead is getting started.  The secret to
getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks
into smaller manageable tasks, and simply starting on the
first one."     --- Mark Twain
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Lee Hart wrote:
> Also, much of the rust we see on cars is cosmetic; it looks ugly but
> doesn't jeopardize strength. Some vehicles, like pickup trucks have
> frames and hold together despite massive amounts of cosmetic rust.
> What's important is that you check for rust in key structural areas;
> suspension mounts, floors, body pillars, bumper supports, etc.

Hmm, maybe I should go into more detail on the rust.  (If I had a web
site I could post pictures, I really should set one up.)

I have been told that at the time my Bluebird was built, the factory's
rust treatment practice was that the car body was dipped only to the
point where the window sills were covered.  This broadly fits with the
pattern of where the rust is emerging.

The part that has already been repaired is along the top edge of the
windscreen.  It was letting water in.

The parts that are still obviously rusty are:

  + Along the top edge of the rear window.  I blocked the holes up
    with RTV to keep the water out.  I know, that was not actually
    a fix, it was just so I could get the interior dried out - it's
    been a rather wet winter.

  + One corner of the boot lid (I can't quite manage to say "trunk"
    instead of boot").  It started out as a pimple of surface rust
    which I should have dealt with, but I didn't, and it turned
    into a big hole, and now the corner is just being held together
    by the rust particles and a bit of duct tape (again, to try and
    keep the water out.  Anyway, it's not really structural, and I
    can probably get a replacement boot lid.

  + Around the aerial mount which is on the back.  This would have
    to be dealt with soon (like, "yesterday") if I'm going to keep
    the car.

There may be more but I haven't really looked very hard.  For the
last six months or so I have been assuming the car will end up
going to a junk yard  because it probably would cost more to fix
than I could expect to get for it at an auction.  It's only in the
last few days that I've thought seriously about converting it.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
     --- James R. Healey, USA Today
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David Roden wrote:
> Conversion is hundreds of hours already, and often a lot of 
> money.   Even for your first one, it makes sense to start
> with the most solid glider you can afford.  It doesn't have
> to be expensive -- just something in decent shape, and which
> you're willing to live with for a while.

Thanks for your thoughts.

It's turning out to be quite hard to find something in "decent"
shape which I like and won't eat up too much of my conversion
budget.  I live in a place where most of the populace either lives
within ten minutes of the sea or commutes daily along the edge of
the harbour.  We don't put salt on our roads in the winter (it
doesn't get that cold in Wellington) but there is a plenty dumped
there at high tide on windy days, of which there are many.

Apart from that, so many of the cars I see with "for sale" signs
on them have serious dents, and the ones in car yards are
overpriced.  I supppose what I really need to do is take some
time off work and attend a few auction sessions.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The secret to getting ahead is getting started.  The secret to
getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks
into smaller manageable tasks, and simply starting on the
first one."     --- Mark Twain
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HELLO ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  I need to purchase some brushes for the drive motors and deck motors for
the ELECTRAC'S that I have . Here is where the list come's in !!! I need
your expertise !!!!  What kind of materal do I need to look for in a good
brush for a dc motor?
                 THANK'S IN ADVANCE
                                   Scott
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George Tylinski wrote:
> I tested some ceramics from a space heater on my 240VAC dryer outlet
> with no apparent problem (Your mileage may vary).

Lee Hart wrote:
> The answer is, of course, "who knows"? :-) They weren't designed or
> tested for it. If you don't mind sacrificing one to the ghodz, then try
> it. Keep a fire extinguisher handy, just in case.

Thanks guys... I will try it out, after getting some appropriate DC
fuses. If it doesn't last then I'll probably look for a unit meant for
240 and avoid the series concerns.


PS (OT): "And, they ARE teaching conservation in grade school." 
True, and after junior stays late to help out in the recycling club, mom
comes by in the Expedition to provide a ride home... 0.25 miles away.



_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
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