EV Digest 2385

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: brushes for electrak drive motor
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: A plan
        by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) OT: Salt, was Re: A plan
        by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: WOT: Re: Meaningful Flags was:OT-huffington article
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Battery growth from abuse?
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Anyone use Soneil chargers before?
        by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Rudman reg madness
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Battery growth from abuse?
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Rudman reg madness
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Difference between Zinc and Cadmium - was Attnetion to Detail
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) Re: Battery growth from abuse?
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: A plan
        by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Difference between Zinc and Cadmium - was Attnetion to Detail
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Epiphany on Range Issue, again
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Battery growth from abuse?
        by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: A plan
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Load tester for 6,8 &12 volt use.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Delphi 8v batteries.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: Anyone use Soneil chargers before?
        by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Rudman reg madness
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Battery growth from abuse?
        by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) How much is enough? (long) (was: RE: Epiphany on Range Issue)
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Difference between Zinc and Cadmium - was Attnetion to Detail
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
SCOTT O'QUINN wrote:
>   I need to purchase some brushes for the drive motors and deck motors for
> the ELECTRAC'S that I have . Here is where the list come's in !!! I need
> your expertise !!!!  What kind of materal do I need to look for in a good
> brush for a dc motor?

Even easier - just contact Bill Gunn at

Technical Service & Parts                       
7898 North Pineview Drive
Edgerton, WI 53534
608-868-6220

He stocks the exact brushes and almost every other Elec-Trak part you
can possibly need.

(note that he does things the traditional way... call him up around
mid-morning and get the pricing, send him a check, he sends you the
parts, or he will send them COD. No credit cards, no e-mail.)

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 04:11:01PM -0400, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> Where I live, too, the road crews use frighteningly large amounts of salt.

I've never understood why you folks back east put up with your government
deliberately destroying your cars.  I grew up in snow country out here
and people might use a little bit of salt on steps or sidewalks to save
shoveling, but that's about it.

But I digress...

-- 
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most of the winter in the midwest is spent between 20-30F, which is ideal
for formation of ice on roadways, some due to precipitation, some due to car
exhaust and/or condensation (black ice).  Sand alone isn't enough.  DOT is
experimenting (for years) with materials other than salt. Without it many
more cars would be destroyed or damaged in accidents, entire roadways turn
into sheets of ice under some conditions, sometimes even with treatment.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Batie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: A plan


> On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 04:11:01PM -0400, David Roden (Akron OH USA)
wrote:
> > Where I live, too, the road crews use frighteningly large amounts of
salt.
>
> I've never understood why you folks back east put up with your government
> deliberately destroying your cars.  I grew up in snow country out here
> and people might use a little bit of salt on steps or sidewalks to save
> shoveling, but that's about it.
>
> But I digress...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lock Hughes quoted the US National Renewable Energy Lab of the DoE:
> 
> The oceans cover a little more than 70 percent of the Earth's surface.
> This makes them the world's largest solar energy collector and energy
> storage system. On an average day, 60 million square kilometers (23
> million square miles) of tropical seas absorb an amount of solar
> radiation equal in heat content to about 250 billion barrels 
> of oil. If less than one-tenth of one percent of this stored solar 
> energy could be converted into electric power, it would supply more
> than 20 times the total amount of electricity consumed in the United
> States on any given day.

Presumably the oceans would then be colder.  Would this balance out
the greenhouse effect?

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Sometimes I wake up at night screaming,
 with visions of emails dancing in my head"
     --- Norman Cates, NatOrg discussion list, July 2001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to say my batteries were growing in terms of capacity, but...
this pack seems to be on its way out. I've replaced the 2 stinkers with
the better batteries saved from my last pack. Along the way I got some
pictures of what is happening inside:

http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Cell_A300.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Cell_B300.jpg

It seems that pretty much from the get go the plates are a little wavy,
then over time the crud starts forming between the plates filling in the
waves (as in the second picture) and continues to grow and grow (as in
the first picture).

Is this the dreaded sulfation? From the appearance, any clues as to
chronic over-charging? Under-charging? Over-heating? Other abuse? Or
just plain age and use?

PS the odd thin white curved piece hanging down from the left is
actually just a reflection in the top surface of the water. The sun was
low in the sky off to the right, coming in through the translucent case.

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone on the list used Soneil 12v battery chargers 
(http://www.soneil.com/12v_chargers.htm)
before?  How's the quality and durability?  I didn't see any reference in
old posts.

Thanks.

Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have gotten several packs of batteries after someone had an experience
similar to yours. They just bought new batteries and gave me the old ones.
Some batteries can be revived, but the yield is not 100%.

Once the batteries get this out of balance, you need to take the batteries
out and test them individually. That way you will know which ones are
healthy and which ones are junk.

Look at http://www.manzanitamicro.com/25%20cycles%20on%20YT%2019.xls to see
how an old abused optima recovered in 25 cycles. In this case, I kept
cycling it until I ran out of patience. To get a feel for how long this
takes, I could run five cycles in a day. The 25 cycles took five days to
complete. If you have 30 batteries, it will take you 150 days to do the same
to all your batteries. I would recommend running each one two cycles each
and record the improvement between the two cycles to see if they are
responding to treatment. This will take about 15 days to finish (using
equipment like mine).

The easiest automatic tester I know of (right now) has a Mk 2 regulator to
control a charge/discharge relay and a serial port equipped emeter to
generate data for a computer running a modem program (hyperterm or
equivalent) to record it.

The relay is controlled in the following manner: If the yellow light is on,
the relay connects the charger to the battery. If the yellow light is off,
the load is connected to the battery. I would use a constant current charger
rated for about C/10 and a load that runs the battery down in about 5 hours.

Set the low bat to trigger at 1.5 to 1.75 volts per cell and the reg point
at 2.4 to 2.45 volts per cell.

Connect the emeter to the battery under test. Verify the data is being
recorded on the computer.

Connect the reg to the battery. The yellow light should come on and the
relay should switch over to the charger.

Connect the charger to line power. The computer should read out the charge
current and voltage.

Wait several hours. Enough time for the battery to go through two complete
cycles. When it is time to end the test, disconnect the load from the relay
while the relay is in the charge mode.

When the charge completes, the yellow light will go out and the charger will
disconnect. The load will not draw down the battery since the load is open.
You will be left with a fully charged battery.

The time necessary for each cycle will be dependent on the size of the
charger, the size of the load and the condition of each battery.

A feature of this system is that weak batteries will be cycled more times
than good ones.

This system does not have any equalization capability. That will require
some additional equipment and controls.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman reg madness


> Thanks for the tips.  My pack is 3years old and never been used. Delphi 8
> volt.  Just charged every few months.  Maybe not enough.  I lost a few
> batteries and put in some used ones.  Doesn't seem to be working out.  I
> just got stranded.  The voltage looked good but the sag was horrible.  At
> least one battery is bad maybe more.  Couldn't get up my hill and had to
be
> towed.  Charged for 4 hours after getting towed.  One battery was hot and
> charging at 26volts!!!.  Gotta take that one out.  I noticed two batterys
> when charging(used) always get up to voltage earlier than the others.  I
> suspect they have limited capacity.  I think I need some sort of load
> tester.  I don't want to get stranded again.  Most of the batterys when
> discharged seem to act normal.  They slowly come up to voltage and then
> taper off.  I guess the regs can't handle a battery that is too different
in
> resistance or capacity.  It seems also that the undervoltage can be
> triggered by as little as opening the door of the car with the DC to DC
> hooked up.  I don't have an aux battery.  Lawrence Rhodes....Thanks again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would guess undercharging.  How much water do they use?

What kind of water are you using?

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:25 PM
Subject: Battery growth from abuse?


> 
> I'd like to say my batteries were growing in terms of capacity, but...
> this pack seems to be on its way out. I've replaced the 2 stinkers with
> the better batteries saved from my last pack. Along the way I got some
> pictures of what is happening inside:
> 
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Cell_A300.jpg
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Cell_B300.jpg
> 
> It seems that pretty much from the get go the plates are a little wavy,
> then over time the crud starts forming between the plates filling in the
> waves (as in the second picture) and continues to grow and grow (as in
> the first picture).
> 
> Is this the dreaded sulfation? From the appearance, any clues as to
> chronic over-charging? Under-charging? Over-heating? Other abuse? Or
> just plain age and use?
> 
> PS the odd thin white curved piece hanging down from the left is
> actually just a reflection in the top surface of the water. The sun was
> low in the sky off to the right, coming in through the translucent case.
> 
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S-10
> 1970s Elec-Trak E20
> http://www.eeevee.com
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good choice. I had a batch of CPU coolers that I wanted to put on some regs
for some serious dissipation.

Rich would not go for it since "nobody would pay for them".

If you want them in the product line, tell Rich.

One way you can save some energy is to only run the fan when the Green LED
is lit. I can tell you where to hook the fan to make this work. That way,
you don't need a central power supply with the wires running everywhere.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: Rudman reg madness


> At 08:37 PM 10/23/2002 -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
> >charge earlier than the others. If the green LED goes steady, check the
heat
> >sink temperature. If it is getting hot, it is doing its job trying to
> >protect the battery from over voltage.
>
> Due to the incredibly poor airflow in my Sparrow, this happens to me
> occaissionally.  So I'm about 1/2 done with mounting a CPU fan on each
> heatsink.  For now, I'm just going to have them running all the time when
> the charger is running.  (Hook a little 12v power brick into the charger
AC
> supply.)
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Differences in cadmium and zinc plating - and when to use each. 

I enjoyed reading John Wayland's post, Attention to Detail, because I'm a 
fanatic for things looking right (and being right) too. Often when I'm 
building a vehicle I'll even have the removable chassis parts zinc plated 
prior to painting. When done right the plating/paint combinatioin essentially 
gives lifetime corrosion protection to the chassis. 

It's no wonder there is so much confusion regarding electroplated finishes 
and colors. Although the differences are not complicated, the variations of 
those differences can be very complex. The info below might be of interest to 
those building EV's who want to do things right. In comparison with nickel 
and chrome, it's very easy and relatively inexpensive to strip and replate 
both zinc and cadmium plated bolts and screws. It is not unusual to get up to 
100 pounds of nuts, bolts, screws, and washers replated for a minimum charge 
of between $25.00 and $50.00. That's much more than needs replating when 
doing a conversion. Cadmium plating can be more, but with either metal it 
helps to develop a friendship with someone in an electroplating shop for this 
purpose, as large shops sometimes do not wish to bother with small lots of 
parts. However, it's been my experience that most electroplaters, 
fabricators, and machinists will readily help someone who is building an EV.

Zinc plating is readily available in most parts of the country, whereas 
cadmium plating, while very common in the fifties and sixties is much harder 
to find today due to the slight toxicity of cadmium and the associated 
environmental cost. The toxicity is more related to the smelting and 
electroplating process. An electroplated cadmium part is very chemically 
stable when combined with a supplementary chromate coating, and therefore not 
very toxic unless you somehow ingest the part, which is a bigger problem all 
by itself. Cadmium plating is still available in many electroplating shops, 
particularly those that serve the aircraft industry.
 
When electroplated fasteners (nuts, bolts, screws, washers, etc.) are used on 
today's vehicles the finish of choice is almost always zinc plating unless 
the specifications absolutely require the use of cadmium plating -- more on 
that below. 

Both zinc and cadmium (called "cad" in the industry) are sacrificial metals, 
meaning they "sacrifice" themselves to protect their ferrous metal (iron and 
steel) substrates from corrosion. In addition, a chromate treatment 
(sometimes called a conversion coating) is applied to the zinc or cadmium to 
protect them from corrosion. Its a two step anti-corrosion process, the zinc 
(or cadmium) surface protects the steel and the chromate surface protects the 
zinc or cadmium.

Immediately after electroplating both zinc and cadmium usually have a very 
bright metallic look with zinc looking more silvery, and cad looking more 
silvery-white. Within minutes of being electroplated, the fasteners are given 
the chromate treatment to protect the fresh but vulnerable surface of the 
zinc or cadmium. It is the chromate treatment that imparts and determines the 
color of the zinc or cadmium part.

A chromate is a very dilute aqueous solution of nitric acid, hexavalent 
chromium, trivalent chromium, and sometimes hydrofluoric acid. The chromate 
imparts a beneficial chemical reaction to the surface of the plated metal. 
The two most common chromates are "clear" and "gold." The clear chromate 
(sometimes called blue-bright) brightens and sometimes imparts a bluish hue 
to the already silvery bright finish. A gold chromate (sometimes called 
di-chromate) is much more colorful and durable and can impart a very bright 
and beautiful iridescent gold finish to the freshly electroplated parts. Some 
other available chromates (but not as common) are olive drab and black.

Chromates are very thin, and for most purposes are not considered to add 
thickness to the plated metal. Generally speaking, the clear chromates are 
easiest to apply and are usually applied to the thinner electroplated 
surfaces of approximately 0.0002" (two ten-thousandths of an inch). A zinc 
plate with a clear finish is used on hardware store variety nuts and bolts. 
It would be nearly impossible to find a cadmium plated bolt in even the best 
of hardware stores today.

The gold finish chromate is of higher quality and is often applied to a 
higher quality (thicker) coating of zinc or cadmium (often 0.0005" minimum, 
but rarely exceeding 0.00055) and also provides a good base for supplementary 
painting, if painting is desired.

Olive drab is mostly used for mil-spec purposes and is usually applied over a 
0.0005" minimum thickness. Like the gold chromate, olive drab also makes a 
good base for supplementary painting but is usually used for its color alone 
and its excellent corrosion protection. Sometimes I see olive drab used on 
high strength fasteners in Japanese autos.

Black chromate is often used for non-reflective purposes, but also for 
color-coding. Some black chromates make an excellent surface for 
supplementary application of paint and corrosion protection. 

As mentioned earlier, most common nuts and bolts use a clear chromate, but 
you can also find high quality fasteners finished in clear. High strength 
Grade 8 fasteners can be finished in any of the available chromates but are 
often finished in gold chromate, as the gold chromate is considered a higher 
quality finish and imparts much greater corrosion resistance than the clear.

Examples where cadmium plating MUST be used:
When ferrous fasteners or parts are used in contact with aluminum.
When ferrous fasteners or parts are used in contact with any brass alloy.

Examples where cadmium is superior to zinc:
When the ferrous part is being used in a salty environment. (ocean going 
vessels, coastal environments)
When the part is being used in a high heat environment such as spark plugs, 
head bolts, etc. (although most spark plugs I see today are zinc plated, 
black oxide coated, or possibly nickel plated)
It's generally easier to plate heat treated parts with cadmium.
Cadmium has a little less friction that zinc when used on threads, but this 
is rarely an issue.

One example where zinc MAY be superior to cadmium:
In an industrial environment where sulfur compounds are prevalent in the 
atmosphere, zinc plating on ferrous metals MAY be superior in some 
combinations of those conditions.

One can see that cadmium can be safely substituted for zinc in nearly all 
situations, but substituting zinc for cadmium can prove deadly in the case of 
high strength fasteners used to fasten critical aluminum aircraft parts.

High strength bolts and a critical safety issue for both zinc and cadmium 
plated parts:
The electroplating processes for both zinc and cadmium gives off lots of 
hydrogen. The hydrogen is readily absorbed into the carbon atoms of a high 
strength fastener (Rockwell "C" hardness of 28 or greater), and must be 
driven off to avoid brittle hydrogen-carbon complexes within the high 
strength steel. Generally this is accomplished by baking the parts at about 
400 degrees Fahrenheit for between 3 and 4 hours within an hour of the 
electroplating.

In regard to building up an EV, I always use zinc plating as my plating of 
choice, whenever possible. When working with aluminum I always try to use 
stainless steel fasteners in place of cadmium plated fasteners. If I need and 
can't readily obtain a high strength stainless steel fastener, then I'll 
usually substitute electroless nickel plating for the cadmium. Electroless 
nickel is a very good substitute for cadmium, looks very attractive, and is 
very corrosion resistant. However, nickel is not sacrificial in regard to 
corrosion protection (usually not an issue), and it can't be color 
coordinated with a chromate. When surface color, sacrificial qualities, and be
ing attached to aluminum are all important, then that's the time to seek out 
an electroplating shop that still plates cadmium.

Hopefully the above might be of use to the people on the list who absolutely 
have to have their EV done right, looking sharp, and safe too.

Lawson Huntley - Charlotte, NC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> I would guess undercharging.  How much water do they use?

I'm not great at a regular watering check, and don't keep records but
maybe added water every 2-3 months at which point used 2-4 gallons for
22 batteries. These batteries have a fair amount of space over the
plates so never had the plates exposed until this last week when I
checked knowing I had been charging harder recently and went through
more like 5 gallons and  saw the tops of the plates just showing in one
cell.
 
> What kind of water are you using?

Distilled, pre-bottled stuff from the store (Poland Springs, what it
means to be from Maine :-)


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
> Bottom line, how useful is the typical conversion EV in daily operation?

My converted EV is my only vehicle if that gives some clue. It had been
around 8000- 10,000 miles per year, but that is going up some as my
daily work routine has changed (and that has admittedly inspired my
interest in getting a pack with a 100 mile "on a good day" range).

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is MY opinion ONLY, it is NOT sound advice.

Two and a half years ago I owned an older Dodge,Plymouth,Mitsubishi Colt
Vista Wagon.

This neat little mini-mini-van(yes two mini's) was in pretty rough shape
cosmetically. It had been hit (dented) on both sides and there was surface
rust in many spots, but structurally it was sound. The interior was ripped
in spots, the carpet was toast. 

I actually thought about converting it. It got 30+mpg (U.S, measures). The
rolling resistance and aero drag must have been super, because I would often
get up to 55-60 and shift into neutral and coast for what seemed like
forever, even accelerating on very slight grades. This van was my daily
commuter, and as a seven passenger car it had gobs of room to insert
batteries and plenty of suspension to carry them. (6 passengers * 200lbs =
1200lbs carrying capacity right?).

Then I started thinking, mainly because of threads just like this one, that
it would be a waste of time, because of the cosmetic condition of the car.

I junked that car.

I still do not drive an EV. I can't get ahead of the maintenance of my
gasser's long enough to build the EV. I will soon though. I might even have
to buy one, whether it be Seth's or one of Steve Clunn's or David
MacFadyen's(I like the looks of that car, and not far away either) I don't
know yet. I have some parts collected and my uncle has offered me a Dodge
Daytona Glider (it ain't no Colt Vista) so I may get one built yet. But the
bottom line is......

I still do not drive an EV.

I should have listened to Lee Hart, paraphrased .....Stop Thinking and Start
Doing!


Stay Charged!

Hump



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walker, Lesley R [mailto:lesley.walker@;eds.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:58 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: A plan
> 
> 
> David Roden wrote:
> > Conversion is hundreds of hours already, and often a lot of 
> > money.   Even for your first one, it makes sense to start
> > with the most solid glider you can afford.  It doesn't have
> > to be expensive -- just something in decent shape, and which
> > you're willing to live with for a while.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> It's turning out to be quite hard to find something in "decent"
> shape which I like and won't eat up too much of my conversion
> budget.  I live in a place where most of the populace either lives
> within ten minutes of the sea or commutes daily along the edge of
> the harbour.  We don't put salt on our roads in the winter (it
> doesn't get that cold in Wellington) but there is a plenty dumped
> there at high tide on windy days, of which there are many.
> 
> Apart from that, so many of the cars I see with "for sale" signs
> on them have serious dents, and the ones in car yards are
> overpriced.  I supppose what I really need to do is take some
> time off work and attend a few auction sessions.
> 
> -- 
> Lesley Walker
> Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "The secret to getting ahead is getting started.  The secret to
> getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks
> into smaller manageable tasks, and simply starting on the
> first one."     --- Mark Twain
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Differences in cadmium and zinc plating - and when to use each...

Excellent! Thank you.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: Epiphany on Range Issue


> Chris Tromley wrote:
> > Bottom line, how useful is the typical conversion EV in daily operation?
>
> My converted EV is my only vehicle if that gives some clue. It had been
> around 8000- 10,000 miles per year, but that is going up some as my
> daily work routine has changed (and that has admittedly inspired my
> interest in getting a pack with a 100 mile "on a good day" range).
>
> __Hi EVerybody;

    I'll chime in oin this one: I do drive to work EVery day, Min RT is 56
miles If I go right in, not doing side trips on the way, to run errands. I
plug in while there, but if I can't, plug ICED, I can get home OK. I have a
tough 450 foot climb to get home, as I am inland from the CT coast I have
done this trip in one sitting, meaning come right back, like picking up
parts or people, or going out to dinner, showing off the distance
possabilities. But with 20 T-145's in a Rabbit, it could be considered over
kill in a Rabbit, but the extra range is nice Got about 7k on the T-145's
and I have never run them dead, always got where I was going, albiet they
were "Soft" a few times, but did spring back to 120 volts when standing. If
I had a "Normal" commute, I think I'd go with less voltage, cut back to GVW
on the car, say 90 volts, stay below 3300 lbs curb weight.
    Yes, I have a backup car, a Nissan Sentra, You might of met it at PDX
this summer, when I was at Woodburn. It can sit for weeks, before I use it
for longer trips. Will use it in crappy snowy weather to avoid the rusting
stuff, salt an crap on the winter roads.It gets about 40 mpg on the hiway,
so it could make a decent conversion, for a 4 pass sedan, I would think It
is a plain, blah CAR. It duz what I want it to do. Get me from point A To B
cheaply. I lose it in parking lots, it hides in plain site! But it works,
like the EV. In a 12k left coast trip, it needed a few oil changes, Jiffy
Lube, fix a burned out headlite, and rusted out muffler, on the way home. If
all things in life worked as well.It should last for years, as it only hasta
do long trips, as the Rabbit takes care of the ice killing short never warms
up runs.

    That's where EV's are for me. YMMV as they say.

     Bob

     Plugging along
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Jim Coate wrote;

> Is this the dreaded sulfation? From the appearance, any clues as to
> chronic over-charging? Under-charging? Over-heating? Other abuse? Or
> just plain age and use?

It looks to me what is referred to as "mossing", where the plate paste
starts to expand and ooze out from between the plates.  The "wavy" plates
is actually the separators starting to distort from the various physics
of the battery aging.  I've never had batteries that *didn't* do this
at some point in their declining stages.  It's not a sign of any particular
abuse that I'm aware of, perhaps Nawaz might be able to explain the
physics behind it better.  I've noticed this happening to a very minor 
extent within a year of getting a new pack, with many miles remaining
in their life.  There's nothing you can do about it except keep 'em 
watered and charged, and ultimately decide to replace them when they
can no longer get you where you need to go.

Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
S-10 EV


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Yes I was back in E. Liverpool to visit relatives and (I was born in Salem,
OH) I noticed a lot less rust in all the newer cars in general.  Still
composite bodies and batteries that aren't affected by cold would be best
for the rust belt.  Did you know that Michigan is the largest producer of
salt in the nation.  Michigans slogan should be "We make em, you break em,
We'll help" Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: A plan


> On 24 Oct 2002 at 10:59, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Here in the north country, every car has rust after just one winter. If
> > your advice was taken literally, no used car could be converted, and
even
> > if you converted a new car, it would be unsafe after one winter.
>
> I'm not talking about surface rust, I mean "skin cancer" -- rust from
inside
> body panels and welded reinforcement members.  Once it starts, it's very
> difficult to stop, and on a unibody vehicle any significant rust means a
weaker
> body.  Vehicles that are built to be as light as possible lose
considerable
> strength this way, and I would hesitate to put another 1000 lb of lead in
one.
>
> I'll grant you that overbuilt vehicles are less of a concern, but
overbuilt
> vehicles weigh a good bit more to begin with.  That makes them a less than
> optimum choice for conversion (all those S-10 conversions
notwithstanding).
>
> Where I live, too, the road crews use frighteningly large amounts of salt.
But
> with a few exceptions -- my 1995 Honda Civic gasser being one of them --
> newer cars don't rust very readily, thanks to better design and more
extensive
> use of galvanized steel.
>
> David Roden
> Akron OH USA
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Can a load tester be made from a resistor, a light bulb and a multimeter or
some other trick method or do I have to go out and buy one.  I need one to
find the best batterys in my collection.  I don't need exact values I just
need to know which batteries are strongest.  Lawrence Rhodes...
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--- Begin Message ---
Anybody have any Delphi 8v packs they are retiring.  I need a few good
batteries.  My main pack seems good except for some stragglers.  I got
stranded with a 128v pack.  Good voltage but wicked sag.  Lawrence
Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Hawkins is using them.  He has a rack of 16 charging his Optimas.


Here's a link to a picture...
http://www.devc.org/devc_images/2001-november/hawkins_charger_rack.jpg

Cheers,
-Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu] On
Behalf Of Mark Dodrill
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:44 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Anyone use Soneil chargers before?

Has anyone on the list used Soneil 12v battery chargers
(http://www.soneil.com/12v_chargers.htm)
before?  How's the quality and durability?  I didn't see any reference
in
old posts.

Thanks.

Mark Dodrill

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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:28 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, Joe Smalley stated:
Good choice. I had a batch of CPU coolers that I wanted to put on some regs
for some serious dissipation.

Rich would not go for it since "nobody would pay for them".
They cost 0.89 each from Marlin P. Jones.
Actually, I ended up with way too many.  I think I'll have about 15 extras.

One way you can save some energy is to only run the fan when the Green LED
is lit. I can tell you where to hook the fan to make this work. That way,
you don't need a central power supply with the wires running everywhere.
I'd really like to know how to do that!

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hi:

It is not "sulfation" for sure.
It is dendritic growth on the negative plate combined with negative active material expansion. The "mossing" growth is from positive shedding and plating out on the negatives.
The wavy sperators are harmless; result of normal negative expansion.

Sincerely

Nawaz Qureshi

Jim Coate wrote:

I'd like to say my batteries were growing in terms of capacity, but...
this pack seems to be on its way out. I've replaced the 2 stinkers with
the better batteries saved from my last pack. Along the way I got some
pictures of what is happening inside:

http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Cell_A300.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Cell_B300.jpg

It seems that pretty much from the get go the plates are a little wavy,
then over time the crud starts forming between the plates filling in the
waves (as in the second picture) and continues to grow and grow (as in
the first picture).

Is this the dreaded sulfation? From the appearance, any clues as to
chronic over-charging? Under-charging? Over-heating? Other abuse? Or
just plain age and use?

PS the odd thin white curved piece hanging down from the left is
actually just a reflection in the top surface of the water. The sun was
low in the sky off to the right, coming in through the translucent case.

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com




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EVers are typically a little sensitive about the whole range issue, so
I'm trying to go about this diplomatically.  I understand that getting
100 mpc in a conversion is *extremely* difficult.  50 mpc is very tough.
But we're all dedicated to the EV cause, so we convert cars to electric
power and use them as much as possible.  Some of us find 25-35 mpc is
enough for most of our needs.  We are proud of what we do, and with good
reason.

The problem is that many of us think in terms of building our own cars
for our own needs.  If EVs are ever to be widely accepted, we need to
broaden our scope.

When I was first drawn to EVs, it was because I knew the general public
assumed EVs would never be ready for prime time.  Yet I kept finding
indications that EVs were far more capable than the public thought.
Call me subversive, but I enjoy destroying preconceptions, keeping
people a little off-balance regarding their perception of What Is.  If I
can build an EV that works just like a normal car in typical daily use,
the astonished looks on people's faces will make it all worthwhile.

I love you guys, but I continue to resist getting drawn too deeply into
the EV "club".  There's a tendency for devotees to look more inward than
outward.  We *can* influence public perceptions.  But ultimately, only
the public will decide if EVs are viable for them.  We need to
acknowledge their point of view.  Has anyone noticed a difference in
outlook between conversion EVers and production EVers?  Two different
demographics.  We need to pay attention to what the production EVers
want.  That is the future.

Unfortunately, a 25-35 mile range does not qualify as a normal car for
most people.  Useful for some?  Absolutely.  But keep in mind that a car
is an essential tool in today's society.  The "use only what you need"
philosophy ignores the fact that it's a real world out there.

I could have a 35 mpc EV and still get to work (20 miles), charge at
work and make it home just fine.  I could even run a short errand at
lunch.  But if there's a major detour on either leg of the trip, I'm
sunk.  If I get a call in the morning that my kid is sick at school, I'm
sunk.  If I'm trying to get prototypes together *today* for a trade show
and get a call from a vendor that leads to driving 60 miles before 10:00
am (yes, it happened), I'm sunk.  A car is a tool.  It needs to work
when you need it.  The general public knows this, and will accept
nothing less.

My earlier question was aimed at determining if our EVs are serving our
needs as well as they could.  If they could do better, and I suspect
range is the issue, how to improve their utility?  I'm not looking for a
passionate defense that less is more, I think we need an honest answer.
>From my earlier post, "I'd like to know how often owners of typical
conversions *don't* drive their EV because the range isn't enough."  The
answer might lead to some real progress - bulletproof NiZn battery
management, a used NiCd co-op, the first hobbyist Li-Ion pack, etc.

Mark Dodrill wrote:

> I gotta jump in here.
> 
> >From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >I've never accepted the viability of EVs with less than 50 mpc in a 
> >general sense.  I know that describes most conversions, but 
> that's why 
> >in several years at my local club (EEVC) I've only seen one 
> EV at one 
> >meeting.  No one has the range to get there on a regular basis.
> 
> I guess it depends on whether you think that current EV 
> technology can substitute for the American family's primary 
> vehicle.  Even at 200 miles per charge I don't think it 
> qualifies for the general public.  I think the goal is to 
> shoot for an appropriate 2nd family car, in terms of wider appeal.

No, I've always assumed EVs will not be long-distance vehicles any time
soon.  Local use is where they shine.  But even in local use you can get
surprised.  Maybe that's not an issue for you, or you're more tolerant
than most.  My assertion is that if EVs strand people in local use they
won't be accepted.

<snip>

> Would I like to have more range?  Of course, but it isn't the 
> primary goal for me--the primary goal is to get the job done, 
> reliably and safely, with no pollution.

This implies that the usefulness of your car would be improved
significantly if it had more range.  That's my point.  Don't get me
wrong - I applaud you for putting an EV on the road and telling people
about it.  You're way ahead of me in that regard (sigh, maybe next
summer).  But part of getting the job done is keeping Murphy from
messing up your day.  Most of the buying public won't accept much
inconvenience to drive "green".

Edward Ang wrote:

<snip>

> Finally, you give them 120-mile range, recharge time
> of 2 hours, carries 4 adults, cost $31k, top speed of
> 80mph, AC, air bags, etc. and looks like a regular
> Toyota RAV4.  They will say they cannot take it off
> road or to Tahoe.
> 
> The fact is they only have to answer one question: Do
> you truly want to buy an EV.  The answer is NO.  Why
> bother them?  Let them stuck in traffic while you
> drive pass them on carpool lanes with no emission.

I agree.  There will always be some who cannot be convinced.  Trying is
wasted effort, so don't.  There are, however, a lot of people out there
who don't know much about cars except that they need one or two.  They'd
like to be environmentally friendly, but aren't willing to risk getting
stranded to do it.  What do we tell them?  But a RAV4 EV or nothing?

Jim Coate wrote:

> Chris Tromley wrote:
> > Bottom line, how useful is the typical conversion EV in daily 
> > operation?
> 
> My converted EV is my only vehicle if that gives some clue. 
> It had been around 8000- 10,000 miles per year, but that is 
> going up some as my daily work routine has changed (and that 
> has admittedly inspired my interest in getting a pack with a 
> 100 mile "on a good day" range).

I took a look at the photo album
(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/112.html) for particulars.  Nice truck!
8000-10000 miles per year on a truck with a 40 mile range is no small
feat.  I'd be interested to know if your range ever got you into
trouble.  And I'm *very* interested in how you plan to get a 100 mile
range.

We've come a long way, even in the short time I've been involved with
EVs.  DC Power controllers and Manzanita Micro chargers are fairly
recent developments that I see as huge advances.  Lately we've been
seeing more activity with alternative battery chemistries.  I don't
think everyone can go out and bump their range up to 100 miles, nor that
they should.  I do think some of us are more accepting of range
limitations than perhaps we should be.  If we consider what we could do
to increase range, maybe when the next pack goes in, I think the whole
EV cause will benefit.

Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Differences in cadmium and zinc plating - and when to use each.
>
> I enjoyed reading John Wayland's post, Attention to Detail, because I'm a
> fanatic for things looking right (and being right) too.

Glad to hear this. I get very frustrated with the 'hackers' of the EV world, and though
these folks may get quite a few EVs put together, their lack of pride in workmanship,
shoddy construction, and poor execution is embarrassing to the EV cause, and it 
promotes
the notion that EVs aren't serious contenders. For years I've tried to lead by example,
and it's been especially pleasing for me to finally see others step up to the plate and
build beautiful conversions of their own...Ralph Merwin's Geo Prism and Marko 
Mongillo's
Fiamp are two stunning, local to my area, examples of this.

>
> It's no wonder there is so much confusion regarding electroplated finishes
> and colors....a chromate treatment
> (sometimes called a conversion coating) is applied to the zinc or cadmium to
> protect them from corrosion....A gold chromate (sometimes called
> di-chromate) is much more colorful and durable and can impart a very bright
> and beautiful iridescent gold finish...

Wow! Thanks for this great post, and thanks for clearing this up! So my prized Japanese
hardware that I described as 'The Japanese hardware...there's a bit of that 'oil on 
water'
type of radiance to the gold colored finish' , is actually zinc di-chromate...thanks, 
I'll
stop calling it the wrong thing and now stand much better informed. It seems that by 
your
description, that Paul Compton had it right, too (as I suspected), when he said, 
"they're
passivated Zinc plated".

See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---

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