EV Digest 2391

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Cheap LCD Voltmeters?
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Handbook of Batteries
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Cheap LCD Voltmeters?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Hobby batteries and charger to play with
        by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: PbA vs. NiCad
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: OT: Battery Cell Photography
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Small Controller
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Battery growth from abuse?
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: PFC-20 Highlights...Thanks Rich and Joe!
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Cheap LCD Voltmeters?
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Small Controller
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Sacramento NEDRA EVent this Saturday...
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 13) Re: Small Controller
        by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: PFC-20 Highlights...Thanks Rich and Joe!
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: Small Controller
        by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) [FS] 26 Optima Yellow Tops
        by Matt Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Wavecrest motor
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: Small Controller
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Measuring voltage during charging
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 20) Fuel Cell Demo at Fry's on AutoMall, Fremont, CA
        by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: PFC-20 Highlights...Thanks Rich and Joe!
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: [FS] 26 Optima Yellow Tops
        by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: PbA vs. NiCad
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Battery growth from abuse?
        by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: PbA vs. NiCad
        by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Electric Jeep?
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: PFC-20 Highlights...Thanks Rich and Joe!
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: OT: Re: Who Elected These People?!
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) Re: PbA vs. NiCad
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Normally, a Batt-Bridge is just a "Check Battery" idiot light. But
> you can add more than one of them to compare parts of the pack to
> any desired degree, right down to each individual battery.

Hmmm... in the past we've talked about a simple individual level battery
monitor where an LED & zener diode is put across each battery, with the
diode voltage chosen such that the LED goes out when the voltage drops
below 1.75  v/cell (or whatever threshold is desired). Then by eye can
pick out which LED goes dim first.

This struck be as being backwards... I'd think the display would attract
more attention and be more intuitive if the warning LEDs turned *on* as
the voltage dropped too low. If one or two light up, those batteries
need help... if all light up, the drivers foot is too heavy. Perhaps
multiple Batt-Bridges would be a way to get this result, and cheaper and
easier to read while driving than multiple voltmeters.


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0071359788/reviews/ref%3Dpm%5Fdp%5Fln%5Fb%5F6/103-0672031-1598257

Has anybody read this book?  If so, whats your opinion and how much
material
applies to EV's.

Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> in the past we've talked about a simple individual level battery
> monitor where an LED & zener diode is put across each battery, with the
> diode voltage chosen such that the LED goes out when the voltage drops
> below 1.75  v/cell (or whatever threshold is desired). Then by eye can
> pick out which LED goes dim first.
> 
> This struck be as being backwards... I'd think the display would
> attract more attention and be more intuitive if the warning LEDs
> turned *on* as the voltage dropped too low.

Every cheap simple circuit can be improved. But when you add enough
improvements, it isn't cheap or simple any more :-)

If you want an LED that turns on when battery voltage drops, there are
"low battery" LEDs with built-in voltage detectors. For example, a Lumex
SSL-LX5093LBI-SRD (Digikey 67-1195-ND, $1.11 each) turns on when the
voltage across it drops below 2.5v. For a 10.5v threshold, put an 8v
zener in series.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Unlike many on this list I don't have a bench full of things laying around that I can just throw together. I do salvage any small electric motors that I can out of dead equipment. Recently my corded Weed Eater fell to pieces, but the motor is still in good shape. I removed the motor and hooked it up to my 12V ICE battery charger and it seems to work fine on DC. Now I'm thinking of playing around with one of the kids scooters :-) The problem is I do not have any batteries laying around. What is a good place to find some small inexpensive batteries for this type of tinkering? What does it take to charge recommended batteries without killing them? The only thing that I currently own is my starter battery charger with a 10amp and 50amp setting and a cheapo DVM.

Since building a full blown EV seems like it is still out there a way for me, tinkering with electric bikes and scooters is appealing.

damon





_________________________________________________________________
Surf the Web without missing calls!Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 28 Oct 2002 at 7:08, Seth wrote:

> One thing I did notice about the SG photo batteries is the terminals are
> corroded. Vinegar and plastic wool seem to clean it up pretty well, but it is
> ugly looking.

Careful!  Keep that vinegar out of the cells!  It's death for your nicads!

Nicad doctors tell me to never use any tool that's been ~near~ a lead acid  
battery on nicads.  Don't use the same hydrometer, even if it's been 
thoroughly washed.  Don't even use the same filler for watering, they say.


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I was kinda pleased with myself for those pictures :-)

I don't think I could have gotten the pictures with the batteries still
in the truck. These particular batteries are USB 8-volters (note that
I've experiences similar growths in Trojan and no-name batteries as
well). The top of the case is red, the sides are a translucent white. As
luck would have it, I took out the battery in question late in the day
and left it in the driveway which slopes up, pointing towards the sun
which was low in the sky, so essentially a flood light pointed at the
side of the case. And it happened that I had a digital camera (new toy)
handy that turned out to do decent macro work - the camera was maybe an
inch away from the top of the case, so almost all light was coming in
from the side. The two cells I took pictures of were the end cells, as
the middle cells were not as well lit (and pretty similar to cell "B").
I don't think this camera can take any add-on filters so I'll live with
the reflections.

Chuck Hursch wrote:
> I printed out your cell images, and have been eyeing them for a
> couple of days.  I tried taking some pictures of the cells in my
> first pack (US2300s) a few years ago without much success.  Used
> SLR and a light shined down the hole.  No polarizer.  I really
> didn't get much discernable.  It appears that you are getting
> quite a bit of light from the sun in through the side of the
> batteries, at least as much as through the filler holes.
> Probably a polarizer would help to get rid of reflections off the
> top of the electrolyte.
>
> I'd really like to document the appearance of the plates and
> separators in my pack, say every six months to a year.  Maybe not
> much spectacular would show, but at least I'd have images to post
> on the wall and study over time ;-).  I'm impressed with the
> growth in the A picture - almost looks like worms sitting on top
> of the plates and separators.  My guess as to the type of battery
> you have given the redness of the filler hole would be Trojan
> T105, but I think I recall you saying your truck runs T145s.  My
> second pack is T125s, and I was struck with how wavy the
> separators were in those batteries from Day 1, almost two years
> ago now (although running in the EV for 1.5 years).  I also
> bought four spare T125s at the same time that have been cycled
> lightly and have not seen EV duty yet.  The lightly cycled
> batteries clearly have less plate growth (they practically look
> like new) than the ones in the car, where the plates (that I can
> see) are a little larger and look somewhat spongy.  But I think
> your A battery takes the cake...

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The controllers I saw at Excess Solutions were 24v Curtis.  I think they are
for wheelchairs.  Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: Small Controller


> Hello All,
>
> Richard Furniss is looking for a small high voltage controller for
> running a lower voltage motor. I don't know of anything on the market
> for doing that.
>
> I have been considering making a small DC controller for heaters and
> power steering motors for some time. It could be something like a
> very tiny Zilla with output voltage and current adjustable. It would
> not be very hard for me to develop since it can use much of the
> technology that is now used in the Zilla.
>
> For me it would allow a "way too fancy" control of heating elements.
> Possibly with temperature sensors and feedback. I would also like to
> use it to run a low voltage power steering pump directly from the
> high voltage pack.
>
> My questions to the list are these:
> How many people might need something like this?
> What would you use one for?
> What specs would you desire?
> Air or water cooled? (It makes 45 watts max.)
> Is it worth $60 extra to have it in a pretty box with a heat sink, or
> would you rather provide package and heat sink for it yourself?
>
> The specs I'm considering are these:
> Input: 48 to 348 V Nom. 27 to 400 V operating. 450V Max. 30 amps max.
> Output: Variable voltage, current limited at 30 amps, 50 amp peak
optional.
> Approximate size: 3" x 4" x 3" plus heatsink.
>
> Back of the envelope calcs bring the price in around $300. in low
quantities.
>
> What do you think? Would people like such a thing?
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914  My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
> It is not "sulfation" for sure.
> It is dendritic growth on the negative plate combined with negative
> active material expansion. The "mossing" growth is from positive
> shedding and plating out on the negatives.
> The wavy sperators are harmless; result of normal negative expansion.

By verbal description, it seemed to be the consensus that what I saw in
my last pack (Trojan) was also "mossing". In my present pack (USB) it
looked a little more solid but maybe I just got a better look at it. And
I've also seen it in no-name (Sam's Club) batteries left over from the
first pack I put in the truck and being used in the ElecTrak.

So since the same thing keeps happening to my batteries, that is why I
started to wonder if it was something wrong I was doing.

 
Glenn Crosby wrote:
> We've had success reducing dendrite formation with our charge
> algorithm by incorporating a discharge pulse up to 2 msec
> within our pulsing charge regime at something around a 10C
> current level.

So all I need is a charger for a 176 volt pack that can put out 1650 amp
peaks, or about 300 KW...

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As such, the
minimalist 585 lb. lead acid battery pack of just 13 Optima YTs is about 1/4
of the total
vehicle weight (2340 lbs.)...great for a high power to weight ratio, but
it's far from the
recommended 1/3 battery to vehicle weight for good range when using lead
acid type
batteries.

Just wondering what the Meanie could do with other available battery
technologies?  Wonder how many used Lion cell phone batteries it would take
and wonder if the solder would weigh more than the batteries(grin)  Lawrence
Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could use more than one switch.  Very small gauge wire would in effect
act as a fuse and vaporize instantly .  However long wire might act as a
resistor  hmmmm.  Is this a bad path?  I have been thinking of doing
something like this.  Lawrence Rhodes....16 would be great.  I have two 15
battery packs......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap LCD Voltmeters?


> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > How about one meter and a switch that has many throws.  I have seen
> > switches like this.
>
> It's easy to get rotary switches for up to 12 positions. 16 positions
> are still relatively common. But rotary switches with more than 16
> positions are hard to find.
>
> A second caveat with any mechanical switch is that you must be
> ABSOLUTELY sure it doesn't short positions (called a "non-shorting"
> switch). If it shorts adjacent positions, you can short batteries
> through the switch!
> --
> Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:

> I have been considering making a small DC controller for heaters and 
> power steering motors for some time. It could be something like a 
> very tiny Zilla with output voltage and current adjustable. It would 
> not be very hard for me to develop since it can use much of the 
> technology that is now used in the Zilla.
> 
> For me it would allow a "way too fancy" control of heating elements. 
> Possibly with temperature sensors and feedback. I would also like to 
> use it to run a low voltage power steering pump directly from the 
> high voltage pack.
> 
> My questions to the list are these:
> How many people might need something like this?
> What would you use one for?
> What specs would you desire?
> Air or water cooled? (It makes 45 watts max.)
> Is it worth $60 extra to have it in a pretty box with a heat sink, or 
> would you rather provide package and heat sink for it yourself?
> 
> The specs I'm considering are these:
> Input: 48 to 348 V Nom. 27 to 400 V operating. 450V Max. 30 amps max.
> Output: Variable voltage, current limited at 30 amps, 50 amp 
> peak optional. Approximate size: 3" x 4" x 3" plus heatsink.
> 
> Back of the envelope calcs bring the price in around $300. in 
> low quantities.
> 
> What do you think? Would people like such a thing?

Hi Otmar,

I'm electrically naive, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.
Would this work only with input voltage higher than output?

The reason I ask is that the idea of hybrid packs has been mentioned
before and it really got me thinking.  In my case I could add 13 small
Hawkers to my 120 V flooded pack, giving me a big jump in voltage (to
156 V) for a pretty small weight gain.  Your baby Zilla would feed juice
from the floodeds to the Hawkers, which would be connected to the
Raptor.

I'm not sure how much current capability the baby Zilla would need in an
application like this (certainly more than 30 A), or how much that may
vary from application to application.  But it sure would give people a
lot more flexibility in designing an EV!

How big would it be?

If this is outside the scope of what you had in mind, perhaps Joe and
Rich could toss it around?

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Hi to all,

We will have beautiful, four color NEDRA hats and T-shirts at Sacramento this 
Saturday. Gates open at 9am and racing from 10am-3pm.

Go to www.sacramentoraceway.com for a map to the dragstrip.

See you all there!

Rich Brown
Dualin'7  NEDRA SC/E and SC/F record holder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds great Ot!

I like the idea of temp sensors & feedback -- that would
make it useful as a (traction) motor automatic cooling fan
controller as well, for those who do allot of hill climbing
and/or push the thermal capabilities of their motors (like I
will be, when I get mine on the road.)

...could also be used for an air conditioning motor
controller. 

...or how about a 300V scooter controller? ;-)

Hmmm... how much would the design have to change to make it
useful as a DC-DC converter for running the 12V system? An
optional bank of output filter caps?

(My vote would be "yes" to pretty box and air cooled
heatsink for additional ~$60)

cheers,

Andrew


Otmar wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Richard Furniss is looking for a small high voltage controller for
> running a lower voltage motor. I don't know of anything on the market
> for doing that.
> 
> I have been considering making a small DC controller for heaters and
> power steering motors for some time. It could be something like a
> very tiny Zilla with output voltage and current adjustable. It would
> not be very hard for me to develop since it can use much of the
> technology that is now used in the Zilla.
> 
> For me it would allow a "way too fancy" control of heating elements.
> Possibly with temperature sensors and feedback. I would also like to
> use it to run a low voltage power steering pump directly from the
> high voltage pack.
> 
> My questions to the list are these:
> How many people might need something like this?
> What would you use one for?
> What specs would you desire?
> Air or water cooled? (It makes 45 watts max.)
> Is it worth $60 extra to have it in a pretty box with a heat sink, or
> would you rather provide package and heat sink for it yourself?
> 
> The specs I'm considering are these:
> Input: 48 to 348 V Nom. 27 to 400 V operating. 450V Max. 30 amps max.
> Output: Variable voltage, current limited at 30 amps, 50 amp peak optional.
> Approximate size: 3" x 4" x 3" plus heatsink.
> 
> Back of the envelope calcs bring the price in around $300. in low quantities.
> 
> What do you think? Would people like such a thing?
> -Otmar-
> 
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914  My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> As such, the
> minimalist 585 lb. lead acid battery pack of just 13 Optima YTs is about 1/4
> of the total
> vehicle weight (2340 lbs.)...great for a high power to weight ratio, but
> it's far from the
> recommended 1/3 battery to vehicle weight for good range when using lead
> acid type
> batteries.
>
> Just wondering what the Meanie could do with other available battery
> technologies?  Wonder how many used Lion cell phone batteries it would take
> and wonder if the solder would weigh more than the batteries(grin)  Lawrence
> Rhodes...

I've thought along the same line. If it weren't for charging and safety concerns, the
Chinese Lithium Ion cells look awfully tempting. As I've written before, this little 
car
is very efficient at cruising down the road, and uses about 50-55 amps to maintain 
55-60
mph with its 156V pack hanging at 160V or so under that draw. Traveling from my house 
to
downtown Portland, is all freeway and slightly down hill...the car uses 8.6 ahrs to 
make
that 9 mile run. If their specs are believable, a 300 lb. pack of their 100 ahr cells
could get the weight of Blue Meanie down to right at or near 2000 lbs. while providing
great acceleration power, and get this, about 100 miles of range in this car! A price 
is
no object view....about 600 lbs. of Lithium Ion cells would give this car 200 miles of
range and a lifetime of over 100,000 miles of driving! The reality seems to be for now,
that the picky charging regime, safety concerns over explosion, and the very high cost
(though way lower than they used to be) make switching to them s a bit iffy right now. 
The
recent announcements of a new cathode material that supposedly alleviates the charging 
and
safety concerns, while incredibly, increasing the already heady capacity to 25% 
greater,
is very promising.

Ahhh, the stuff dreams are made of.

A 500 lb. pack of the Evercell Nickel Zinc batteries and going from a useable 25 ahrs 
to
60-80 ahrs could extend Meanie's range to 60-75 miles, so that would be super cool, 
too,
but they cannot dish out 1000-1200 amps like Optimas can, and I would dearly miss the
thrust that this kind of high current gives to this light weight car. Still, being 
able to
drive three times the miles, even in cold weather, sounds pretty good.

Having fast charge capability has extended the usefulness of this fun car, and it is
working out pretty good for me right now. Case in point....I was headed to downtown 
just
yesterday, and was cruising along at near 70 in the fast lane, when an impatient dude 
in a
new Toyota Corolla was tailgating me. I could see in my rearview mirror, that he was
really checking out my little cherry condition econo car from the past, and envisioned 
he
couldn't miss the 'ELECTRIC' emblem gleaming in the bright Fall sunlight on the trunk 
lid,
and the plates that proudly say 'VOLTS'...there's no doubt he knew he was following an
electric car. 30 years ago, Toyota and Datsun were in direct competition, and though 
there
was a '72 Corolla with a 1600cc engine to compete with the Datsun 510 sedan with its
1600cc engine, there was also a stripped down, lighter Corolla with a 1200cc engine, 
the
Corolla 1200, that was direct competition for the Datsun 1200. I couldn't help make the
connection, that now, 30 years later, my 1200 was dicing it out with a new Corolla.

I knew he was about to come around me in the right lane to pass and blow me off, even
though there were cars ahead in that lane he'd have to squeeze around....he just had 
that
look on his face. And so, like a spider awaiting something to get stuck in its web, I
waited. Sure enough, he made his bid to overtake me, but just as he changed lanes, I
punched the throttle down, as the mighty electric motor pushed me back into the seat, 
the
Emeter pegged at 1021 amps, and Blue Meanie rocketed from 70 to 90 mph....just like 
that!
The Corolla faded back as I pulled ahead with ease, and the guy had to abort his 
passing
bid and fall back in line behind me again...what fun! I had hoped it wouldn't get him
upset, and that seemed to be the case, as the look on his face was more of total
astonishment, not anger. Another clearing later when more lanes are added on this 
freeway
run to downtown, had him try it again, but this time I was merciless and I nailed the
throttle again and left it to the floor as the 30 year old speedo's needle wrapped 
around
and banged against the peg past the top speed indication of 100 mph! Again, Mr. Corolla
had to fall back behind me as he never came close to staying with the electric 1200, 
and
as his lane ran out, he was evidently going to the same exit leading to one of 
Portland's
10 traffic bridges, as I was. I became more legal and drove in a safer, more sane 
mode, as
I slowed to the posted speed, and rolled across the river at 35 mph on the 
bridge....here
came Mr. Corolla around me, a huge grin on his face, a big thumbs up, and shaking his 
head
in disbelief!

I went immediately to the EV charging station to plug in, as instead of 8+ ahrs to get 
to
downtown, it took 15+ ahrs! I had wished Mr. Corolla had followed me so we could talk, 
but
he had taken another turn elsewhere.

I do not encourage others to blatantly break the law as I did on this little encounter,
and I apologize for being a bad example....it's Rich and Joe's fault.

See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The reason I ask is that the idea of hybrid packs has been mentioned
>before and it really got me thinking. In my case I could add 13 small
>Hawkers to my 120 V flooded pack, giving me a big jump in voltage (to
>156 V) for a pretty small weight gain. Your baby Zilla would feed juice
>from the floodeds to the Hawkers, which would be connected to the
>Raptor.

Have you really looked at the numbers for the small Hawkers? At a 150 amp
discharge the G26EP will be dead in 3 or 4 minutes and 13 of them would add
350+ lbs to the weight of the vehicle (hakwers+cables+boost converter+etc).

Assuming you used a 200 amp dc-dc booster converter and 600 amps through the
Raptor, the little hawkers would be left handling the rest of the current
(400 amps).  With a 400 amp discharge, a fully charged pack of G26EPs would
sag to about 130 volts (10V per battery).  This is at or below the terminal
voltage for the battery.

This is better than you could do with just flooded batteries, but it's going
to be very hard on the Hawkers, very expensive, and only a small gain in
performance.  I think you'd be better off adding six more flooded 6V
batteries.  Six more floodeds (assuming T-105 or equivalent) would give you
the same voltage for the same weight gain and probably more range.

If you were thinking about using an even smaller Hawker like the G13EP, they
have even higher internal resistance than 6V floodeds so will sag even more
under the same load.  The G13EPs or G16EPs would add zero improvement in
performance and a lot of extra costs. Neither of these batteries could
support a 400 discharge without going below 10V per battery.  The G13EP
could provide 300 amps for a few seconds before going below 10V.  It could
provide 150 amps for a minute, maybe two.
The G13EPs would add close to 200 lbs to the vehicle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hello EVers!

First, I apologize if this is an inappropriate post. I couldn't find anything against it in the list charter, and I put [FS] in the subject line to help people who don't want to read this kind of thing filter it out.

Now, on to the point. I've got 26 12V Optima Yellow Tops for sale. These are factory 2nds, which means they aren't exactly as pretty as normal (most just have a drip of glue running down the side) but they are all "mechanically" perfect. I bought them with the intention of converting my Honda Civic, but I've hit a snag in the plan. So, rather than have them sitting around in my garage I've decided to make them available to the rest of the EV community.

I'm only trying to get out of them what I paid, which ended up to be $100 each (normal retail on a YT runs from $130 to $180). They are located (as am I) in Milwaukee, WI. So shipping will have to be arranged if you live too far away. I can try to help deliver them within a few hundred miles of Milwaukee. Or if you buy them and you're on the way from WI to FL I could drop them off in December.

I can be contacted at "coolcat_at_mac.com" (replace _at_ with @)
or you can reach me by phone at 414-fivefivenine-6588
(Sorry for the cyptics, but those darn spam-bots always seem to find me somehow)

Thanks EVeryone, and I apologize again if anyone finds this inappropriate.

Later,

Matt
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http://www.wavecrestlabs.com/technology/adaptive_motor.html

Does anybody have more information about this company?
They are developing a BLDC motor/control as a hub motor that will
fit on an ordinary bike.

I didn't see anything for sale (other than investment capital )
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At 11:58 AM -0500 10/28/02, Chris Tromley wrote:

I'm electrically naive, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.
Would this work only with input voltage higher than output?
Hi Chris,
Good question. I had not intended it to do that. With the proper current limit and an extra inductor it would be possible. This would then be running as a boost converter, as opposed to a regular DC controller which runs as a buck converter.

The reason I ask is that the idea of hybrid packs has been mentioned
before and it really got me thinking.  In my case I could add 13 small
Hawkers to my 120 V flooded pack, giving me a big jump in voltage (to
156 V) for a pretty small weight gain.  Your baby Zilla would feed juice
from the floodeds to the Hawkers, which would be connected to the
Raptor.

I'm not sure how much current capability the baby Zilla would need in an
application like this (certainly more than 30 A), or how much that may
vary from application to application.  But it sure would give people a
lot more flexibility in designing an EV!
This is a idea I also had been tossing around. But you are right, you would probably want more current. Something like 100 amps continuous. It also brings up more complicated questions of charge regulation. Would the Hawkers be charged only by the boost converter? I thought ideally it might be a bidirectional converter that would automatically charge one pack when the other was charged, but that gets even more complicated and therefore more expensive.

I like the idea of being able to run a small high voltage pack for high power and short trips around town, and then with the proper boost converter adding a variable number of larger batteries in the trunk to get the range desired for longer trips.

How big would it be?
I figure 3" x 4" x 3" plus heatsink for the small one. If I were to build a Boost converter for 100 amps it would probably be twice as big.

At 9:29 AM -0800 10/28/02, Andrew Letton wrote:
Hmmm... how much would the design have to change to make it
useful as a DC-DC converter for running the 12V system? An
optional bank of output filter caps?
Hey Andrew,
The reason I wouldn't use it as a DC-DC for the 12V system is because it's not isolated. Isolating it would be a very different construction, it would cost more, be larger and less efficient as well. It could do non-isolated battery charging with a additional inductor, somewhat like what we've been discussing above, just in the other direction. Of course, if it's used to run a 12V power steering pump then it reduces the size required for the isolated DC-DC for the rest of the car.

Thanks everyone for the input so far.

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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I'm having trouble measuring my pack's voltage during charging, I expect due to the 
pulsing of the buck mode charger. One of my meters (Metex) just won't read while 
charging and I discovered my other meter gives different results based on polarity. 
Reverse probes, get a different answer! This is not exactly a quality meter. When the 
charger is off, both meters agree. I understand for AC measuments you need a True RMS 
meter for measuring non-sineusoidal waveforms but how does this apply to DC? Does True 
RMS apply only to pure AC measuements or DC measuments with an AC component? Is there 
something in the meter's specs I should be looking for or is True RMS enough?

There is a line filter between my pack and my Vicor DC-DC. It's just one of those AC 
line filters you would see in the front end of some AC appliance. When I connect my 
meter to the DC-DC side of this filter, my Metex meter works fine, but is that filter 
changing my reading? 

thanks,
Steve
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I got to see a working demo of a small fuel cell at
Fry's yesterday.  They are selling a kit that consists
of a small solar panel, a small fuel cell/electrolysis
unit on a toy *electric* car, and a book that
describes the technology.  I think the price was $129.

The demo used a desk lamp shining on the solar panel
as the power source.  The toy car has 2 small "tanks"
submerged in distilled water that collect hydrogen and
oxygen from electrolysis.  As far as I can tell, both
the electrolysis unit and fuel cell unit were on a
single 1.5"x1.5"x1/4" module enclosed in clear
Plexiglas.  The set up was neat.  The car ran on a
small circular track with the "charging station" on
one end.  It would stop at the charging station to
recharge the gas tanks.

You could actually see the gases building up thru the
clear hoses when charging and the gases being used
slowly when running.  Very interesting.

The book has a chart that shows fuel cell efficiency
of about 40-60% which is only a little better than
advanced turbine engines.  But, nonetheless, it was my
first experiment looking at a working hydrogen fuel
cell.  As usual, the demo person did not have much
technical knowledge.  Another person and I helped to
get the demo working for him.

Ed Ang


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
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John Wayland wrote:
> 
> Hello to All,
> 

> I went immediately to the EV charging station to plug in, as instead of 8+ ahrs to 
>get to
> downtown, it took 15+ ahrs! I had wished Mr. Corolla had followed me so we could 
>talk, but
> he had taken another turn elsewhere.
> 
> I do not encourage others to blatantly break the law as I did on this little 
>encounter,
> and I apologize for being a bad example....it's Rich and Joe's fault.
> 
> See Ya.....John Wayland


He he he....My kinda Drivin'.....
I do enjoy cutting the refill time down as much as I can...
Ummm PFC50 time????? at 156 that's 60 amps of Zorch....or about 10
minutes of recharge.

Yawn.... And now they want me to do a 36 KW charger.... 
I don't like 440 3 phase... but it's coming at me about a year faster
than I wanted.


-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message --- hi Matt -

Does this mean no Honda conversion???? It seems we have both had some change of plans.... :-) I'm probably going to want to buy new Optimas for my Z car, but just out of curiousity, how far are you from Maine? Like 'way too far away' or 'almost doable'?

Seth



On Monday, October 28, 2002, at 01:25 PM, Matt Muelver wrote:

Hello EVers!

First, I apologize if this is an inappropriate post. I couldn't find anything against it in the list charter, and I put [FS] in the subject line to help people who don't want to read this kind of thing filter it out.

Now, on to the point. I've got 26 12V Optima Yellow Tops for sale. These are factory 2nds, which means they aren't exactly as pretty as normal (most just have a drip of glue running down the side) but they are all "mechanically" perfect. I bought them with the intention of converting my Honda Civic, but I've hit a snag in the plan. So, rather than have them sitting around in my garage I've decided to make them available to the rest of the EV community.

I'm only trying to get out of them what I paid, which ended up to be $100 each (normal retail on a YT runs from $130 to $180). They are located (as am I) in Milwaukee, WI. So shipping will have to be arranged if you live too far away. I can try to help deliver them within a few hundred miles of Milwaukee. Or if you buy them and you're on the way from WI to FL I could drop them off in December.

I can be contacted at "coolcat_at_mac.com" (replace _at_ with @)
or you can reach me by phone at 414-fivefivenine-6588
(Sorry for the cyptics, but those darn spam-bots always seem to find me somehow)

Thanks EVeryone, and I apologize again if anyone finds this inappropriate.

Later,

Matt






--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION

http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
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What are typical temperatures you're going to use your scooter at?

Victor
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Does anybody know of a good source of images and descriptions as
to what's going on?  It seems like we have these black boxes that
who knows what the heck is going on.  When a battery has crapped
out, what is wrong with it, and why did it happen?  Sometimes I
wish for batteries that have see-through cases - probably would
be an ugly scene, but might be able to tell more than just
looking through a hole.  Or some micro fiber-optic camera that
could be inserted into the battery's depth and take a tour of THE
DEEP.  The way it is now, it is like trying to massage somebody
without really knowing what's going on inside.  In my EV career,
the BATTERY has proven to have the steepest learning curve - it
is truly a fine art to make a battery perform well and last long.

Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: Battery growth from abuse?


> Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
> > It is not "sulfation" for sure.
> > It is dendritic growth on the negative plate combined with
negative
> > active material expansion. The "mossing" growth is from
positive
> > shedding and plating out on the negatives.
> > The wavy sperators are harmless; result of normal negative
expansion.
>
> By verbal description, it seemed to be the consensus that what
I saw in
> my last pack (Trojan) was also "mossing". In my present pack
(USB) it
> looked a little more solid but maybe I just got a better look
at it. And
> I've also seen it in no-name (Sam's Club) batteries left over
from the
> first pack I put in the truck and being used in the ElecTrak.
>
> So since the same thing keeps happening to my batteries, that
is why I
> started to wonder if it was something wrong I was doing.
>
>
> Glenn Crosby wrote:
> > We've had success reducing dendrite formation with our charge
> > algorithm by incorporating a discharge pulse up to 2 msec
> > within our pulsing charge regime at something around a 10C
> > current level.
>
> So all I need is a charger for a 176 volt pack that can put out
1650 amp
> peaks, or about 300 KW...
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message --- Other than having to compensate the charging voltage, I am not sure why that matters. My guess is that it would be used between 30 and 100F.

Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A Jeep Wrangler in need of an ICE, or perhaps a motor ?

www.erepairables.com/vehicle_information/4505/1994_jeep_wrangler.html


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> 
> Hello to All,
> 
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 
> > Just wondering what the Meanie could do with other available battery
> > technologies?  Wonder how many used Lion cell phone batteries it would take
> > and wonder if the solder would weigh more than the batteries(grin)  Lawrence
> > Rhodes...
> 
> I've thought along the same line. If it weren't for charging and safety concerns, the
> Chinese Lithium Ion cells look awfully tempting. 
> The reality seems to be for now,
> that the picky charging regime, safety concerns over explosion,...

Sorry, you (or anyone on the list) have no data to back up these 
concerns (which is good because explosion is not that much of a
concern).

Unlike consumer electronics LiIon batteries sealed in plastic, which
may make it explode if overcharged (due to internal pressure build up)
EV size LiIon batteries always have safety valve relieving the pressure.

All explosion cases come from small batteries experiences.
WHen was last time someone heard about EV LiIon battery explosion?

If overcharged, they usually leak, not explode.

BMS is a must, without it the battery will be damaged, but not
exploded (unless you do 2C rate dump charge to test that...).

PFC-20/50 can only be used as a power stage - the brains are needed.

Victor
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Jeff Clearwater wrote:

>
>
> Yours in service toward a sustainable future,
>
> Jeff

Welcome back Jeff.
     This is NOT a religious list.
        You are anti NUKE..... and have all the evidence you need to support
your Views

I, and others think Nuke is the only really viable high energy Free Lunch NON
Carbon consuming power source that
industry can turn too that can solve our current energy needs.

Without backing my view up lets say you are not going to convince me and I am
not going to convince you.

Lets NOT get into this on this list.

Besides My Evs are Salmon Patte powered. And I have already turned up the
heat to help Keep California in the dark.

Rich Rudman
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It matters a lot because PbA will loose useful capacity at cold
temps *a lot*, while NiCd are unaffected by low temp. They rather
don't like being too hot.

Keith Richtman wrote:
> 
> Other than having to compensate the charging voltage, I am not sure
> why that matters.  My guess is that it would be used between 30 and
> 100F.
> 
> Keith
--- End Message ---

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