EV Digest 2395

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Ranger EV Conversion Kit on eBay
        by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) The little Rudman that could.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Rudman Barbecue
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Tango (very long)
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Ohio finally makes EV news and jobs
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: The little Rudman that could.
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Rudman Barbecue
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Hardware for regen/dynamic braking set up?
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: It's Dead, Jim...or is it?
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is located in Topeka, KS.  Auction indicates that the seller will
not ship.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871497850

Parts consist of the following: Gast model MOA-v111-JH Vacuum Pump.
Zivan NG3 Battery Charger. Curtis PMC On Road Controller model
1231C8601. Curtis DC/DC Converter model 1400E-120/140. Williams
Accelerator Rheostat model 1212F. Packstat Series II Electronic
Thermostat. E-Meter. Vacuum Switch. Cruising Equipment Voltage
Pre-Scaler Model 0-500VDC s/n 900086. Advance DC Motors, Inc. DC MOtor
model FBI4001A, s/n 1049. Misc. wire, loom, battery cable, cable ends,
&electrical enclosures. 2 Albright Model SW-200 Contactors. Adaptor
Plate and Coupling Assembly. Balancing Flywheel. Motor Mount. These
parts were purchased for the conversion of a 1996 Ford Ranger. The
conversion was not done. These parts are new (unused). The Ranger is
currently listed on eBay (listing # 1871481313)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,

We are designing a regen/dynamic braking system for our race car to try and
return the maximum power to our batteries without blowing them up. We have
one motor per axle capable of producing up to 320 amps each. We have a data
acquisition system capable of reading currents and voltages and
temperatures, calculating SOC, and outputting digital or analogue control
signals. What we need is a system to take the power in excess of what the
batteries can accept and burn it off.

Any suggestions on how to build braking resistors capable of burning off a
maximum of  256kw (640 amps X 400 volts). I am thinking some kind of liquid
cooled array but what liquid and what resistors? What is the best hardware
to control how much power goes to the resistors and how much goes to the
battery?

My understanding of how the regenerative system works on our Siemens AC
motors is that the brake pedal signal tells the controller that it wants say
50% of braking power. The controller translates that into current (50% of
320 amps max current is 160) and then raises it's output voltage until
either 160 volts flow into the batteries or the voltage hits the max
allowed. (Victor, feel free to correct me if I have this wrong).

We have been throwing around a number of ideas. I would love to hear what
list members suggest.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The pack is charging.  All the little batteries are slowly comming up to
charge.  The few that come up quicker are starting to activate the regs.
Blinking nicely.  Two regs that I thought were toast survived though smoking
briefly.  One just got poped with full pack voltage for a split second.  It
smoked & didn't smell good but worked after that.  The second completed the
circuit normally completed by a 2.0 cable and a breaker.  DUH.  I thought it
was the breaker not breaking.  DUH.  Usually turning on some current using
device causes it to pop all the way.  Nope. I was lazy and thought the cable
was a better conductor than 16 gauge for the 8 foot run to the lonley
battery in the hump(I used one wire and the cable for the 8foot run to the
lone battery in the hump) forgeting it would complete the pack circuit thru
the reg if I turned the breaker off.  So trying to pop the breaker off I
turned on the vac pump, contactor, lights and even moved the car a little
before realising that something was wrong.  With the Mark IIs it would just
fry a fuse.  The Mark Is aren't fused and have 25 watt honking resistors.
Well I jumped into action and noticed that the lonely batterys reg resistor
was melting plastic and pulled its connection.  That reg took a lot of amps
to move a car.  It is still working.  Lawrence Rhodes.  It's not the regs.
It's not the batteries that's the problm.  It's DUH.................I'll bet
Rich has made a few bucks off DUH............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> We are designing a regen/dynamic braking system for our race car to
> try and return the maximum power to our batteries without blowing
> them up... What we need is a system to take the power in excess of
> what the batteries can accept and burn it off.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to build braking resistors capable of burning
> off a maximum of 256kw (640 amps X 400 volts)?

Impressive specs! I hope you can solve all the technological and
reliability problems such a complex system entails.

For a race car, I assume weight is important. In that case, some type of
water-cooled resistor is probably the best choice. Let it boil off the
water, so you can carry just enough to finish the race.

> What is the best hardware to control how much power goes to the
> resistors and how much goes to the battery?

"Best" requires an immense amount of knowledge and experience about the
system. Your motor controller is probably your first choice.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got any more of those Delphis or Mark Is.  At this point I replaced a bunch
of Mark IIs that don't work for some reason. Mostly Duh.  Like droping
uninsulated test probes over connections and causing spikes.  DUH.  I'm
still learning.   Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: Rudman Barbecue


>
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >
> > I HATE those 8 volt Delphi's batteries, every one who has used them has
> > broken Regs and batteries.
> >
>
> AMEN, Bruddah....
> Signed,
> A Former delphi driver and Reg killer....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>We are designing a regen/dynamic braking system for our race car to try and
>return the maximum power to our batteries without blowing them up. We have
>one motor per axle capable of producing up to 320 amps each. We have a data
>acquisition system capable of reading currents and voltages and
>temperatures, calculating SOC, and outputting digital or analogue control
>signals. What we need is a system to take the power in excess of what the
>batteries can accept and burn it off.
>
>Any suggestions on how to build braking resistors capable of burning off a
>maximum of 256kw (640 amps X 400 volts). I am thinking some kind of liquid
>cooled array but what liquid and what resistors? What is the best hardware
>to control how much power goes to the resistors and how much goes to the
>battery? 

My instincts tell me that you won't be able to come anywhere close to that
kind of braking power.  Not because the electrical system can't handle it,
but because you won't be able to keep the drive wheels stuck to the ground
firmly enough during that kind of braking.

Of course I don't have enough information to run the calculations, but my
guess is 256kw worth of braking would be in excess of 1G.  It's not a
front/four wheel drive race car is it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,

Thank you for the response.

> Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> > We are designing a regen/dynamic braking system for our race car to
> > try and return the maximum power to our batteries without blowing
> > them up... What we need is a system to take the power in excess of
> > what the batteries can accept and burn it off.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how to build braking resistors capable of burning
> > off a maximum of 256kw (640 amps X 400 volts)?
>
> Impressive specs! I hope you can solve all the technological and
> reliability problems such a complex system entails.

We hope so too. We are keeping our brake system seperate though<g>.

> For a race car, I assume weight is important. In that case, some type of
> water-cooled resistor is probably the best choice. Let it boil off the
> water, so you can carry just enough to finish the race.

I suspect race officials will take a dim view of us emitting clouds of steam
everytime we brake. I was thinking more in terms of an enclosed system with
a radiator to cool the heated fluid.

> > What is the best hardware to control how much power goes to the
> > resistors and how much goes to the battery?
>
> "Best" requires an immense amount of knowledge and experience about the
> system. Your motor controller is probably your first choice.

The motor controller is inteligent enough to give us the amount of current
we ask for, but it has no provision for splitting those amps to anywhere
other than the batteries. The scheme that seems to make the most use of the
controller's smarts is to use some sort of electonic one/off switch (SCRs?)
to cut in different resistors as needed and let the controller do the fine
control.

For example say the SOC calcs tell us that 100 amps is what the batteries
will accept at this time. The braking signal is calling for 550 amps to slow
the car. We signal 5 of our resistors which will each take 100 amps at 400
volts to join the circuit. This means that if the controller goes to it's
maxium of 400 volts, it will get a current of 600 amps. Instead the
controller adjusts the voltage to get it's 550 amp current with around 50
amps going to the batteries.

This isn't as exact as we would like. In this example the batteries are only
getting around 50 amps, even though we want them to get 100 amps. We could
refine the concept by using either more smaller resistors or a mix of
different value resistors.

What do you think?

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> My instincts tell me that you won't be able to come anywhere close to that
> kind of braking power.  Not because the electrical system can't handle it,
> but because you won't be able to keep the drive wheels stuck to the ground
> firmly enough during that kind of braking.
>
> Of course I don't have enough information to run the calculations, but my
> guess is 256kw worth of braking would be in excess of 1G.  It's not a
> front/four wheel drive race car is it?

It is a four wheel drive race car, so we can use all four wheels for braking
and control the front to rear ratio. We will be running DOT approved tires
but they are closer to slicks than street tires. My calculations show us
(depending on diff ratio) getting somewhere between .75 to .5 of a G. Nice
for slowing on the street but weak for the track.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick Woodbury wrote:

[Too much good news to excerpt here]

Wow!  Nice work, Rick!

Not only did you get support from your US Congressman and your state
governor, you showcased the Tango on Capitol Hill and got some
Washington state wheels turning to implement the narrow car concept.
You are truly a man with a mission.

Call me a cynic, but I don't expect much to come of the exposure on a
national level.  The congressmen were likely genuinely impressed, but
there's too much big money influence in congress for the idea to get a
toehold.  But that doesn't mean it was wasted effort.

What encourages me most is the support you received in Washington state
and Spokane.  Use the national exposure to build support locally.  How
many jobs would a 10000-Tango-per-year factory bring to the area?  Your
idea of public assistance for the initial build, to be repaid by the
vehicle lease income, creates a very low-risk means to prove the
concept.  State and local governments have to *want* it before it will
happen.  You seem to be making great progress toward that end.
Hopefully there is little oil and auto money in state and local politics
to muck things up.  If it can be shown to work in Spokane, other cities
will take notice.

I don't trust the auto industry.  They are too monolithic and methodical
in their discrediting of the electric vehicle.  Past experience suggests
that if you get too far in putting real EVs on the road in serious
numbers, they will find a way to shoot you down.  I think working with
government is safer than any relationships with automakers.  And make no
mistake - if the narrow vehicle concept takes off, you will get stiff
competition from ICE narrow vehicles.  In dealing with government I
would pursue ways of allowing *only* zero-pollution vehicles to be
eligible for narrow vehicle benefits.

I'll be very interested to see how the auto magazines respond to your
first ten units.  There are some open-minded journalists, but most can't
see past what they know about ICE cars.  I used to subscribe to R&T, Car
and Driver, Automobile, etc.  I stopped when they became more concerned
with creating an image than reporting facts, and the influence of their
advertisers got to be just to much to bear.  We'll see.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating.  You are doing more to
advance the EV cause than most of us could ever dream.  Thank you.

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff,

You will also have mechanical brakes?  I would think this would be required
for racing.
The controller should have two protection features that are programmable
(if
it doesn't it should).
First is brake current limit.  This may depend on what the control can take
or
the batteries.
Second is voltage limit.  The braking (regen) algorithm should reduce duty
cycle when the bus voltage gets too high.  That means less brake current
as well.
Some how you will have to integrate a transducer on the brake pedal
to indicate how fast you want to stop.
When the controller can not provide the braking requested by the operator,
the mechanical brakes must apply greater force.
So now you have your 'brake resistor' ie, air cooled friction brakes!
Rod



Lee,

Thank you for the response.

> Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> > We are designing a regen/dynamic braking system for our race car to
> > try and return the maximum power to our batteries without blowing
> > them up... What we need is a system to take the power in excess of
> > what the batteries can accept and burn it off.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how to build braking resistors capable of burning
> > off a maximum of 256kw (640 amps X 400 volts)?
>
> Impressive specs! I hope you can solve all the technological and
> reliability problems such a complex system entails.

We hope so too. We are keeping our brake system seperate though<g>.

> For a race car, I assume weight is important. In that case, some type of
> water-cooled resistor is probably the best choice. Let it boil off the
> water, so you can carry just enough to finish the race.

I suspect race officials will take a dim view of us emitting clouds of
steam
everytime we brake. I was thinking more in terms of an enclosed system with
a radiator to cool the heated fluid.

> > What is the best hardware to control how much power goes to the
> > resistors and how much goes to the battery?
>
> "Best" requires an immense amount of knowledge and experience about the
> system. Your motor controller is probably your first choice.

The motor controller is inteligent enough to give us the amount of current
we ask for, but it has no provision for splitting those amps to anywhere
other than the batteries. The scheme that seems to make the most use of the
controller's smarts is to use some sort of electonic one/off switch (SCRs?)
to cut in different resistors as needed and let the controller do the fine
control.

For example say the SOC calcs tell us that 100 amps is what the batteries
will accept at this time. The braking signal is calling for 550 amps to
slow
the car. We signal 5 of our resistors which will each take 100 amps at 400
volts to join the circuit. This means that if the controller goes to it's
maxium of 400 volts, it will get a current of 600 amps. Instead the
controller adjusts the voltage to get it's 550 amp current with around 50
amps going to the batteries.

This isn't as exact as we would like. In this example the batteries are
only
getting around 50 amps, even though we want them to get 100 amps. We could
refine the concept by using either more smaller resistors or a mix of
different value resistors.

What do you think?

Cliff

www.ProEV.com



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Texaco Ovonic Picks Ohio for Multi-Billion Dollar Facility
(10/30/2002)

October 30, 2002?- Springboro, Ohio received a shot in the economic arm
this week with the announcement that Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems LLC, a
50-50 joint venture between a unit of ChevronTexaco Corp. and a subsidiary
of Energy Conversion Devices, Inc., will break ground for a new
multimillion-dollar battery production facility.

The Springboro plant, at 170,000 square feet and with new automated
manufacturing equipment, is more than twice the size of the current
production facility in Kettering and is expected to double the production
capacity of advanced Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems nickel metal hydride
(NiMH) batteries.

"I am pleased with Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems' decision to continue its
operation in Ohio by building its multimillion-dollar, state-of-the-art
battery manufacturing plant in Springboro," Governor Bob Taft said. "We
have a long-term commitment to establish Ohio as an economic leader in the
21st Century, while at the same time preserving the environment. We believe
that Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems will help us achieve these goals."

Robert C. Stempel, Chairman and CEO of Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems, said,
"This is an important step for Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems. The
Springboro plant will enable us to address and provide for the battery
needs of both the transportation and stationary markets. We look forward to
building a world-class, competitive business and to offering the Ovonic
nickel metal hydride batteries to the global automotive and nonautomotive
markets. We have the basic patents in nickel metal hydride battery
technology."

Tom Neslage, President and COO of Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems, said, "The
Springboro plant, which is expected to become functional in April 2003,
will replace the Kettering plant. We, at Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems, are
committed to offering value, reliability, and quality to our customers and
look forward to expanding the market for our proprietary nickel metal
hydride batteries."

The advanced Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems NiMH batteries reportedly
provide more than twice the energy and life cycle of conventional lead acid
batteries, are maintenance free and are environmentally benign. NiMH
batteries are the enabling technology for electric and hybrid electric
vehicles to meet the requirements for next-generation fuel-efficient
vehicle applications.

Other applications include telecommunications, uninterruptible power
systems (UPS) and distributed generation segments of stationary markets.

Employment level at the Ohio plant ? represented by the International Union
of Electrical Workers ? is expected to reach nearly 200 people during the
next few years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would look at a simple dump or diversion regulator type of system that
just turns on the resistors as the battery voltage comes up.  This would be
completely separate from the braking system, its only job would be to keep
the battery voltage from going to high, it would be set at a voltage just
under the limit at witch the braking controller starts to limit braking
current.  Have resistors (one each) that would pull about 40, 80, 160, and
320 amps.  A simple controller could then turn on the necessary load in a
binary pattern proportional to the voltage.  Something like at 400 volts the
40 amp resistor is on, at 401 volts the 80 resistor is on, at 402 volts the
40 and 80 amp resistors are on etc..  It works fine on my wind generator
system, but that is only 1000 watts at 12 volts.
Or you could get Rich to build a set of very high power regs and do it on a
per battery basis.

Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
Behalf Of Cliff Rassweiler

The motor controller is inteligent enough to give us the amount of current
we ask for, but it has no provision for splitting those amps to anywhere
other than the batteries. The scheme that seems to make the most use of the
controller's smarts is to use some sort of electonic one/off switch (SCRs?)
to cut in different resistors as needed and let the controller do the fine
control.

For example say the SOC calcs tell us that 100 amps is what the batteries
will accept at this time. The braking signal is calling for 550 amps to slow
the car. We signal 5 of our resistors which will each take 100 amps at 400
volts to join the circuit. This means that if the controller goes to it's
maxium of 400 volts, it will get a current of 600 amps. Instead the
controller adjusts the voltage to get it's 550 amp current with around 50
amps going to the batteries.

This isn't as exact as we would like. In this example the batteries are only
getting around 50 amps, even though we want them to get 100 amps. We could
refine the concept by using either more smaller resistors or a mix of
different value resistors.

What do you think?

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,

> You will also have mechanical brakes?  I would think this would be
required
> for racing.

Yes, we are keeping a separate normal braking system.

> The controller should have two protection features that are programmable
> (if
> it doesn't it should).
> First is brake current limit.  This may depend on what the control can
take
> or
> the batteries.

The controller has brake current limit. It can be preset to any value up to
max current. The problem is the current the batteries can take will change
with state of charge, so the preset value is either not enough or too much.

> Second is voltage limit.  The braking (regen) algorithm should reduce duty
> cycle when the bus voltage gets too high.  That means less brake current
> as well.

The controller has this also.

> Some how you will have to integrate a transducer on the brake pedal
> to indicate how fast you want to stop.
> When the controller can not provide the braking requested by the operator,
> the mechanical brakes must apply greater force.
> So now you have your 'brake resistor' ie, air cooled friction brakes!

This is possible. We could calculate SOC and then tell the controller we
only want 100 amps of regen and then automatically pressurize the brakes to
a certain force (a la ABS). Two objections. First, we would like to keep the
brake system unmodified and thus totally reliable. Second, our long term
goal is to make the mechanical brakes vestigial. The rotors are a lot of
unsprung weight. If our regen system is powerful and reliable, we can
lighten the rotors drastically.

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
>> For a race car, I assume weight is important... Let it boil off the
>> water, so you can carry just enough to finish the race.

> I suspect race officials will take a dim view of us emitting clouds
> of steam everytime we brake.

Depending on the ambient humidity, the steam wouldn't be visible. The
air behind the car is just more humid than in front of it. :-)

> The motor controller is inteligent enough to give us the amount of
> current we ask for, but it has no provision for splitting those amps
> to anywhere other than the batteries.

That part is easy. You would just have your load resistors in parallel
with the batteries. The controller delivers all its regen power to the
batteries. A second controller watches battery voltage; if too high for
the current, it adds the load resistors as needed.

> use some sort of electonic one/off switch (SCRs?) to cut in different
> resistors as needed and let the controller do the fine control.

SCRs are easy to turn on, but won't turn off until the current in them
goes to zero. This happens automatically in an AC circuit; you could put
SCRs and load resistors directly on your AC motor. But SCRs would be a
poor choice to switch load resistors in the DC side.

> For example, say the SOC calcs tell us that 100 amps is what the
> batteries will accept at this time. The braking signal is calling
> for 550 amps to slow the car. We signal 5 of our resistors which
> will each take 100 amps at 400 volts to join the circuit... the
> batteries are only getting around 50 amps, even though we want them
> to get 100 amps.

That is not a problem. The batteries don't care if the instantaneous
current is 100 amps; only that the average be 50 amps. You could
alternately apply 0-100-0-100 amps by switching one of your load
resistors on and off.

In practice, the regen current is going to vary rapidly depending on
driver input. The battery voltage is also going to be changing very
quickly. The batteries only care that the voltage is not too high for a
given state of charge. So all you need is a giant version of a Rudman
regulator, that switches the load resistor on/off as need to keep the
batteries below X volts.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes.  It's not the regs.
> It's not the batteries that's the problm.  It's DUH.................I'll bet
> Rich has made a few bucks off DUH............

No I  don't make much off of Ummmm "Troubles". I feel sorry for you all
and take care of what I can fix, and hope all involved learned
something.


-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> 
> Got any more of those Delphis or Mark Is.  At this point I replaced a bunch
> of Mark IIs that don't work for some reason. Mostly Duh.  Like droping
> uninsulated test probes over connections and causing spikes.  DUH.  I'm
> still learning.   Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Barbecue
> 
> >
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I HATE those 8 volt Delphi's batteries, every one who has used them has
> > > broken Regs and batteries.
> > >
> >
> > AMEN, Bruddah....
> > Signed,
> > A Former delphi driver and Reg killer....
> >
I have a few spares and some blank PCB to support folks just like you.
And a pile of messed up Regs from the last 6 years, that could be
rehabbed if I had the time.

There is hope... but I need some help around here just to get the new
stuff out the door, let alone dig out some 6 year old stuff,and spend a
hour finding what let go.

-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> 
> Lee,
> 
> Thank you for the response.
> 
> > Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> > > We are designing a regen/dynamic braking system for our race car to
> > > try and return the maximum power to our batteries without blowing
> > > them up... What we need is a system to take the power in excess of
> > > what the batteries can accept and burn it off.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions on how to build braking resistors capable of burning
> > > off a maximum of 256kw (640 amps X 400 volts)?
> >
> > Impressive specs! I hope you can solve all the technological and
> > reliability problems such a complex system entails.
> 
> We hope so too. We are keeping our brake system seperate though<g>.
> 
> > For a race car, I assume weight is important. In that case, some type of
> > water-cooled resistor is probably the best choice. Let it boil off the
> > water, so you can carry just enough to finish the race.
> 
> I suspect race officials will take a dim view of us emitting clouds of steam
> everytime we brake. I was thinking more in terms of an enclosed system with
> a radiator to cool the heated fluid.
> 
> > > What is the best hardware to control how much power goes to the
> > > resistors and how much goes to the battery?
> >
> > "Best" requires an immense amount of knowledge and experience about the
> > system. Your motor controller is probably your first choice.
> 
> The motor controller is inteligent enough to give us the amount of current
> we ask for, but it has no provision for splitting those amps to anywhere
> other than the batteries. The scheme that seems to make the most use of the
> controller's smarts is to use some sort of electonic one/off switch (SCRs?)
> to cut in different resistors as needed and let the controller do the fine
> control.
> 
> For example say the SOC calcs tell us that 100 amps is what the batteries
> will accept at this time. The braking signal is calling for 550 amps to slow
> the car. We signal 5 of our resistors which will each take 100 amps at 400
> volts to join the circuit. This means that if the controller goes to it's
> maxium of 400 volts, it will get a current of 600 amps. Instead the
> controller adjusts the voltage to get it's 550 amp current with around 50
> amps going to the batteries.
> 
> This isn't as exact as we would like. In this example the batteries are only
> getting around 50 amps, even though we want them to get 100 amps. We could
> refine the concept by using either more smaller resistors or a mix of
> different value resistors.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Cliff
> 
> www.ProEV.com
Cliff What kinda battereis???
        Optimas I thought or Gennies. I have it written down some wheres. Any
good AGM Lead acid battery will suck up what it can make.  After you
have about 1 Kwhr out of the stack, the batteries will take a lot more
than 250Kw. Your inverter drive has a over voltage buss set point. It
can be set to back off the regen at a programmed voltage point. simply
have your "BRAKING resistors" kick in about 2 volt below the cut back
point.  GET a Locomotive sized braking resistor, have it in  water, and
you can suck up about 180 Kw that way. We do it testing DC controllers.
        My guess is that you won't need it once the first lap is over with.

Ummm don't over voltge the charger..... I won't like that....

Your chassis will be in my hands for start of build up Friday.... the
day I am moving....




-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> 
> >
> > My instincts tell me that you won't be able to come anywhere close to that
> > kind of braking power.  Not because the electrical system can't handle it,
> > but because you won't be able to keep the drive wheels stuck to the ground
> > firmly enough during that kind of braking.
> >
> > Of course I don't have enough information to run the calculations, but my
> > guess is 256kw worth of braking would be in excess of 1G.  It's not a
> > front/four wheel drive race car is it?
> 
> It is a four wheel drive race car, so we can use all four wheels for braking
> and control the front to rear ratio. We will be running DOT approved tires
> but they are closer to slicks than street tires. My calculations show us
> (depending on diff ratio) getting somewhere between .75 to .5 of a G. Nice
> for slowing on the street but weak for the track.
> 
> Cliff
> 
> www.ProEV.com
Yea track braking is 1 G plus, and up to 3 Gs if you have ground
effects, and 90% of it is on the front tires.
Front drive is required to get this with Regen.


-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Cliff Rassweiler wrote:

> > My instincts tell me that you won't be able to come 
> anywhere close to 
> > that kind of braking power.  Not because the electrical 
> system can't 
> > handle it, but because you won't be able to keep the drive wheels 
> > stuck to the ground firmly enough during that kind of braking.
> >
> > Of course I don't have enough information to run the 
> calculations, but 
> > my guess is 256kw worth of braking would be in excess of 
> 1G.  It's not 
> > a front/four wheel drive race car is it?
> 
> It is a four wheel drive race car, so we can use all four 
> wheels for braking and control the front to rear ratio. We 
> will be running DOT approved tires but they are closer to 
> slicks than street tires. My calculations show us (depending 
> on diff ratio) getting somewhere between .75 to .5 of a G. 
> Nice for slowing on the street but weak for the track.
> 
> Cliff
> 
www.ProEV.com

Hi Cliff,

I can't pretend to understand the fine points of the control you're
trying do design, but I wonder if you're missing an important point.

Max braking involves a very subtle balance of very large forces.  The
forces, and therefore the balance, are constantly changing in any
braking event, and will be different at different points on the track.
A good driver plays the brake pedal just as delicately as he plays the
accelerator or steering wheel.  *Everything* he does is on the ragged
edge of adhesion.

He can do this with a hydraulic brake system because it provides
excellent, real-time feedback.  Will your high-power regen do the same?
Since hydraulic brakes *must* be part of the system, you seem to be
combining regen with hydraulic brakes to get your overall braking
performance.  The difficulty will be in getting the two to work well
together on the track, even after all the control issues are solved.

Your best bet might be to have the regen provide a constant moderate
deceleration, with all the finesse being applied through the hydraulic
brakes.  .5 to .75 g is probably plenty for this.  You could set the
front/rear balance based on the track conditions.

Even .5 g might be too much when going throttle-off into a turn, so how
about adding a bit of control at the accelerator?  You could set it up
so the neutral position (zero throttle, zero regen) is maybe 1" down
from the fully released position.  As the driver lifts gradually off the
pedal from neutral, regen increases until it reaches a maximum when he
lifts entirely to put his foot on the brake.  This would provide much
more control in tight transitions.  You'd probably want an indicator
light to come on when regen became active.

Chris 
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Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> 
> Rod,
> 
> > You will also have mechanical brakes?  I would think this would be
> required
> > for racing.
> 
> Yes, we are keeping a separate normal braking system.
> 
> > The controller should have two protection features that are programmable
> > (if
> > it doesn't it should).
> > First is brake current limit.  This may depend on what the control can
> take
> > or
> > the batteries.
> 
> The controller has brake current limit. It can be preset to any value up to
> max current. The problem is the current the batteries can take will change
> with state of charge, so the preset value is either not enough or too much.
> 
> > Second is voltage limit.  The braking (regen) algorithm should reduce duty
> > cycle when the bus voltage gets too high.  That means less brake current
> > as well.
> 
> The controller has this also.
> 
> > Some how you will have to integrate a transducer on the brake pedal
> > to indicate how fast you want to stop.
> > When the controller can not provide the braking requested by the operator,
> > the mechanical brakes must apply greater force.
> > So now you have your 'brake resistor' ie, air cooled friction brakes!
> 
> This is possible. We could calculate SOC and then tell the controller we
> only want 100 amps of regen and then automatically pressurize the brakes to
> a certain force (a la ABS). Two objections. First, we would like to keep the
> brake system unmodified and thus totally reliable. Second, our long term
> goal is to make the mechanical brakes vestigial. The rotors are a lot of
> unsprung weight. If our regen system is powerful and reliable, we can
> lighten the rotors drastically.
> 
> Cliff
> 
> www.ProEV.com
Like I just said..... you batteries will take a LOT more amps than you
expect. Yts and Gennies can take 15.5  to 16 volts each for 2-10
seconds. Your brake current will be your limit NOT what your batteries
can take. Once off the %90 charged shelf, dump pack currents are OK.


-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Hello to All,

Christopher Meier wrote:

> John, have you considered that the time may be right to form a
> custom, high-end, EV conversion business?

I tried that back in '94 with the now defunct 'E-Car', a three man team based here in
Portland. The company mantra I coined for E-Car was, 'Electrifying Performance!' A mere
four cars emerged from that project....Blue Meanie (well, it was already in existence 
but
it did receive a major face lift), the '65 Mustang (look under 'Ford' at the EV Photo
Album), Lou Tauber's 'Screaming Yellow Zonker (also in the EV Photo Album under
'Renualt'), and a Rabbit conversion (now living somewhere on the east coast, I think).
Differences between us about envisioned company direction, no real start-up capital, 
the
limits of battery technology back then, personality clashes, worries over legal and
liabilty angles, and too many hard labor hours for the money made, were just some of 
the
problems that led to the demise of that venture. Bruce Parmenter wrote up a kind
assessment of us back then, which I still appreciate today.

> With components that are available now (Warp, PFC, Godzilla, Siemens, etc),
> and your wonderful 'salesmanship' and design/crafting ability
> and attention to detail, you could sell these types of vehicles
> to the 'haves' and likely keep a whole team of people gainfully
> employed crafting fabulous EV after EV...

I agree that today, there are many new choices (especially in batteries) that allow 
one to
build an EV with much longer range, greatly extended battery cycle life, superior cold
range operation, faster and more efficient charging, and much higher performance. I 
often
wish I could build an updated version of the '65 Mustang we did back in '95 (featured 
in
Nov. '95 issue of Mustang Illustrated magazine). Today's Wayland conversion vintage
Mustang would be one that would do 0-60 in under 5 seconds using a 'Zilla and twin DC
motors, one that would have a 100 mile range but still have the amps for hard 
acceleration
(a NiZN pack with a Lead Acid booster pack of small AGMs) and would have that kind of
range even in colder weather, one that had a fast acting charging system (Manzanita 
Micro
system), one that would have a full blown Wayland sound system, one that would have 
exotic
euro type 7 inch rounds fitted with HID's, one that would have the same kind of
perfectionist bodywork and a killer paint job, and one that would have the same kind 
of hi
pro, lowered suspension system....and on and on....

For those more into 'today's tech' there would be the proposed Insight with a 
performance
oriented (read that high power with lower axle ratio and a 5 speed and a real clutch) 
AC
drive, killer sound, advanced lighting, and state of the art batteries for a 150-200 
mile
range.

> you could even form a program with the local technical colleges to have a
> special course where you, Frank, etc, can train the young
> adults to have not only the skills to create these EV's, but
> at the same time instill in them a love for EVs (really nice
> ones!).  In the wake of 9/11, I bet there are quite a few
> non-college bound kids that are aching to do something
> to help reduce our dependence on foreign oil, etc... and
> such a program could ignite many of them...

Yeah, this all sounds great. On a much smaller scale, I've been doing this, one young
person at a time that visits my place to see 'the EVs'...the most recent being Seth
Murray, who I really enjoyed meeting and having around as my guest this past Woodburn
season.

I've also worked with the local high school EV/electronics program for many years and 
over
a three year period, helped put the David Douglas High School electric train shuttle on
the tracks. Many young guys have worked with me as their mentor on their 'Senior 
Venture
Project', a last year in high school program where the student chooses a topic and a
related project to be their final high school focus. One such student was in the film
documentary 'Where the Rubber Meets the Road'. Though there is lots of cool Blue Meanie
footage (they first show an EV1, then an EV Plus, then the Meanie), in the final 
segment
they showed the student, Frank the Metal God, and I converting the '67 Datsun 
minitruck to
electric power in one l-o-n-g day. Speaking of that film...it is a thrill to have 
Robert
Stemple do a voice-over as they show me converting and then driving away in the
truck...the credits at the end roll by with my name right near to Stemple's....pretty
cool!

> ....and provide you a well trained work force for the growing business...
> a few magazine writeups and you'd have all the celebs and
> Car & Driver (etc) types  buying your creations.  After all
> the hottest vehicle craze in Hollywood is Prius ownership...
> imagine them getting excited about supporting US workers
> on top of it, and further reducing the oil dependency...

We actually had these ides back in '94. At one point, I had talked with several 
hollywood
celebs, and one's wife was trying to buy Blue Meanie from me, even with its short range
limitations. I agree though, that the climate is much better today.

>
> Imagine, years from now all the proud owners of Wayland EVs,
> it could end up with as much 'brand' recognition as a Shelby
> vehicle, for example.  Your trusty 20+ year old EV... imagine
> dozens, hundreds, thousands of Wayland branded EV's,
> when you're old enough to be rocking on the porch, and the
> automotive magazine writers stop by to interview the
> 'Smokey Yunich'/'Carroll Shelby' of high-powered high-
> quality EV's...

Stop! You're trying to rekindle my life's dream. I would like nothing more than this, 
but
it takes a lot to get to this level. My hat's definitely off to Rick and Bryan 
Woodbury! I
think the closest I've come to this, is having designed and installed the sound system 
in
Tango, having helped them with a little advice, and other minor things that really pale
compared to all that they've done.

>
> 2 kids overheard at the local car wash...
>
> kid1: "What you got in that thing"
>
> kid2: "It's got the Waylandized Netgain Warp 9,
>          the Signature Wayland Sound System, the
>         Wayland "Suck My Amps" Traction Pack..."
>
> kid1: "No way, not the Wayland Pack!??!?!"
>
> kid2: "yup, and I can toast *any* ICE and hear every
>          note of (insert latest smash hit audio release)
>          while my tail-lights become a dot on the horizon"
>
> kid1: "Where can I get one?   Heck that, I want to
>          help design and make them; where's the factory?"
>
> kid2: "The R&D shop is in Portland, and since the '10s
>          there are satellite factories all over the US, nearly
>          every technical college has a training program; and
>          get this - the best students are recruited for the top
>          positions at the factories and even the R&D shop.
>          And there is a scholarship program funded by a
>          portion of the business profits, that essentially
>          guarantees this company will be around forever."
>
> kid1: "That's just the career idea I've been looking for"
>
> kid2: "The cleaning crew's done, want a ride?"
>
> kid1: "You bet...."
>
> -Chris

I really appreciate the above, thanks for the fun. Absent this dream from really
happening, I can at least keep trying to build my little projects in the Wayland 
backyard
EV shop, that seem to find their way into magazines, and I can keep on taking them to 
car
shows and soundoff EVents to keep the interest going.

See Ya....John Wayland


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