EV Digest 2410
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Tango Wanted
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Paul MacCready to speak at WPI
by "Joyner, Jeffrey K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: evercel
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Info on GM NEV wanted
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: evercel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) thanks
by Steve Downing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Paul MacCready to speak at WPI
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: evercel
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) LED Low Voltage was (Red: Cheap LCD Voltmeter)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Evercell and advanced batteries
by William Korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: evercel an Stuff
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Cheap switchmode supplies- Ferro mod.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cheap switchmode supplies- Nicad charging.
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: evercel
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) RE: Evercell and advanced batteries
by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: evercel
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EMeter and Palm device
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Info on GM NEV wanted
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: LRR tires: Goodyear Integritys vs Invicta GLRs
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: evercel
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: VW donor questions
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) ZEBRA sodium nickel chloride batteries - yeeehaa!
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) OT: Hey - are hybrids a "crock"?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Theoretical range/performance
by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph Vaughn-Perling wrote:
> Due to the better schooling available farther from my place
> of employment, I may soon (in the next year or so) be
> *increasing* my personal daily VMT (vehicle miles traveled)
> by a factor of two. :/
>
> I'll be driving 60+ miles a day, about 30 each way with
> ability to charge at work. My current EV will struggle a bit
> with this, so either I'll need to do some significant
> upgrading, or get another EV.
>
> I really like the Tango, anyone know when it will be available?
>
> If I open a Tango dealership can I get one sooner? :)
>
> I'm betting I could sell enough of them through my contacts
> and marketing expertise to make the effort worth my while. :)
Hi Joseph,
Your initial investment for a dealership would have to include the cost
of certifying the Tango. Until that happens there will be no
*completed* cars that could be legally sold.
Rick is planning to build a run of 10 high-end demo cars to make the
rounds at car magazines. Then he plans to build kit cars. Perhaps you
could convince him to include a lower-cost version for you in kit form
in that initial build? Being the first on your block might entail a
commitment from you to act as a beta tester.
Good luck,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:26 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
On 7 Nov 2002 at 9:37, John Lussmyer wrote:
> As far as I can tell, the only cells they make that MIGHT fit are the "SBM
> 11" and "SBM 15".
You must be looking at a different list. I have their EV applications
catalog, which lists two cells which are roughly 7.8" high. All
measurements are in mm:
STM1.40B 37ah 85L x 45.5W x 198H
STM1.80B 75ah 85L x 85W x 198H
Those are Smaller and Much higher capacity than the ones that are listed in
the PDF I downloaded from Saft some time ago: "Ni-Cd Block Battery
Dimensional and Electrical Data".
Of course I can no longer find this document on their site....
The STM1.80B cells do look good for this usage. With that AH rating, you
really only need a single string of them, so 8 cells would replace a single
YT. Takes only 1/2 the space as well!
Hmm, a double string would give impressive range for a Sparrow.
Of course, as you say, it's all a waste of time anyway, since Saft isn't
interested in small orders.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently read a post on the GM NEV program in California and now cannot
find it. Could someone please direct me offline.
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fred whitridge wrote:
>
> Hi:
...
> They do have $11mm of cash on their balance sheet,
Do you mean they have a stack of bills 11mm high? Not much... :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
set EV mail postpone
end
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Nov 2002 at 10:57, Joyner, Jeffrey K. wrote:
> Of course, as an EV1 driver, it does not help me because
> the PosiCharge is conductive.
True, but how much longer will you get to be an EV1 driver? Many other
people with conductive vehicles can use this charger, and they'll still be
able to do so long after GM has crushed your EV1.
No offense meant, just a reminder that the future is most likely with
conductive charging, especially if (as threatened) Toyota stops selling the
RAV4/EV -- the only other inductive vehicle available that I know of in
significant numbers.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Nov 2002 at 11:01, John Lussmyer wrote:
> it's all a waste of time anyway, since Saft isn't
> interested in small orders.
They'll ship any quantity if it's an item they have in production. That's
why you can get the STM5 modules (though I'm not sure what the status is of
Peugeot and Renault EV production right now). If some major buyer orders a
bunch of the cells you want, you can probably piggyback onto that order.
But it's apt to be a long wait.
Still, it can't hurt to ask.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote
If you want an LED that turns on when battery voltage drops, there are
"low battery" LEDs with built-in voltage detectors. For example, a Lumex
SSL-LX5093LBI-SRD (Digikey 67-1195-ND, $1.11 each) turns on when the
voltage across it drops below 2.5v. For a 10.5v threshold, put an 8v
zener in series.
I keep looking at this and think I would like to do this for my current
and future battery pack. I want to set up a box with the 18 leds on my dash,
with room to add a few more. The diodes and any other stuff would be
remotely in a box next to each of my 3 battery box.
What else do I need besides the LED's and Zener diodes of the appropriate
types?
The amp draw on the spec sheet is 3ma for each battery so it seems a
waste, or worse, to have a master switch and relays to switch them all off.
But do I need to have fuses on each pair of wires between the box and the
LEDs in the dash rated to break full pack voltage, or does the zener diode
provide that function by being only 1/2 (or 1/4?) watt and the fuse would
just muck stuff up?
Thanks for any advice,
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's interesting to see the battery discussion topic light up every
year around this time as the temperatures start to go down, and
with them the capacity of lead acid battery packs.
There's been a NiCad "true believer" contingent on this list for a
long time, and it like the Evercell product is gradually maturing
toward being a viable consideration. But what about NiMH...
NiMH offers over double the energy density (& specific energy)
of lead acid, it's more cold-tolerant, it lasts much longer, and
the power/charge/discharge profile is very EV-favorable.
Panasonic and Saft make superb nickel EV batteries that work
(I now have a Toyota RAV4 which comes with Panasonic NiMH).
Ovonic has also demonstrated NiMH products.
Has anyone pursued any of these more refined NiMH products?
And then of course there's Lithium Polymer, which is being
produced by Saft and a bunch of Asian sources. Has anyone
had any luck?
A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them, Lets us
designers and Battery management contractors get some real cycles on them.
As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light of day. Stick with 15s
40s and 100s. The rest is
Well vaporware at the moment.
This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before we get
some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail because we all did
know what we were doing , can have lasting consequences. Remember we
Scared Advanced DC out of the
experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same to
Evercell.
Subject: RE: VW donor questions
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Good points! Do you think I'm jumping the gun to wanna get some
Evercells
> for an EV? EVen the tried and true ones like Sheer has in the Honda? What
is
> he charing with? can I get that setup too. There must be a friendly
charging
> regimen for these things? I know yur working on it. If I actually BUY
these
> cells, I'm in line for your charger. can't have one without the other.
Seems
> like Evercell could use a few test pilots.
The problem is that the ones I have in my EV are no longer available.. they
have retooled and now have a new product. However, Leo has a pack of the new
ones so we will see how they do. I suggest waiting until the new ones have
lived 50 cycles or so before purchasing them, so that we'll have some idea
how they stack up to the old ones in terms of reliability..
They're not that big a deal to charge. All you need is a voltage regulated
charger with a timer that can actuate after you reach the voltage set point.
The PFC-20 with analog board does just fine.
However, we're again dealing with a new animal with these new batteries from
china, and we don't yet know what to expect from them. I'm not saying yu
shouldn't buy them, I'm just saying you should be aware that if you buy now,
you're signing up to be a guinea pig.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It's interesting to see the battery discussion topic light up every
> year around this time as the temperatures start to go down, and
> with them the capacity of lead acid battery packs.
>
> There's been a NiCad "true believer" contingent on this list for a
> long time, and it like the Evercell product is gradually maturing
> toward being a viable consideration. But what about NiMH...
> NiMH offers over double the energy density (& specific energy)
> of lead acid, it's more cold-tolerant, it lasts much longer, and
> the power/charge/discharge profile is very EV-favorable.
>
> Panasonic and Saft make superb nickel EV batteries that work
> (I now have a Toyota RAV4 which comes with Panasonic NiMH).
> Ovonic has also demonstrated NiMH products.
>
> Has anyone pursued any of these more refined NiMH products?
My attempts at purchasing large NiMH cells have been for the most part
failures. Prices quoted are always so high as to make me whimper and wander
off still suffering from sticker shock. Maybe this is changing.. I'd love to
hear about any lister who is successfully buying large-size NiMH cells.
In the meantime, has anyone heard anything new from the NaNiClAl people?
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I have some rolling resistance data (parking lot variant)
with my new Integrity tires vs the old Invicta GLRs. I wore the
old Invictas out, and shortly before one of them expired, I
obtained the best set of rolls I've ever had. The new Integritys
seem to roll in the parking lot about the same as the new
Invictas did years ago, although I have to make the big
assumption that nothing else has significantly changed with the
rest of the car and the parking lot itself.
The Integritys are P185/70R13 and the Invictas were P175/70R13.
The Integritys are a noticeably bigger tire, giving me about
500lb greater carrying capacity across all four tires (assuming
max pressure at 44psi). This makes up for about half the weight
increase of the Rabbit going from a stock diesel to the electric
(2000lbs to 2900lbs). The ride is significantly better, both in
the bump department and the noise department. The downside is
that the car seems to take significantly more energy on the
freeway, but not really so just putzing on surface streets
(although the surface street energy draw is improving as I get
some miles on the tires). Another downside is that with the
Integritys I had some stability issues on the freeway, like the
car was trying to oscillate from side to side. The recent wheel
alignment (the right front wheel was toed way out) seems to have
helped some in both the energy and steering depts, but not
entirely. I'm hoping that things will improve as I get some more
miles on these tires.
I was a little bummed that my parking lot rolling resistance
tests did not show a significant improvement after this latest
wheel alignment. I picked up doing this parking lot test from
when the EAA - East Bay Chapter would do a parking lot rolling
test during their rallies at the Berkeley BART station in the
mid-90s. I'll never forget how Mike Slominski's best-of-range
Rabbit would pull down by far the longest rolls - you'd just walk
and walk along to find the mark on the pavement. My parking lot,
the best I have really been able to find here in vertical Marin
and that is available, is up in Terra Linda, and basically
amounts to a very wide V, one side slightly higher and steeper
than the other. I would assume that with no rolling resistance,
the car would coast up the other side of the V to the same height
as from where it started on the other side. If there was
friction, it would not come up as far, and hence not roll as far.
I'm certain an E-meter (when I make a spot for it in the dash)
would help me understand how the rolling resistance scene is
going. However, I've always thought the parking lot test got rid
of a lot of variables. Driving at speed on the freeway or
surface street, there's a lot of stuff going on.
I typed in all my rolling tests over the years past from my
logbook(s). The data file is at
www.geocities.com/chursch/rolling_resistance_tests.txt if anybody
is interested.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
>
> In the meantime, has anyone heard anything new from the NaNiClAl people?
>
> S.
I did, but the same old...
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod, Lee and All,
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a very important point that I didn't mention
> in my post about using it for the scooter.
> The power supply should be current and voltage
> limited,
> but not for charging a battery.
> I use my extra TEVan charger for pumping 55 amps
> into
> my golf cart. It's current limited, but it would
> keep on
> dumping 55 amps since the voltage won't go above 68V
> on my 48V
> golf cart. This sounds like high voltage for a 48V
> system, but
> the NiCd's (SAFT STM-180) spike up quite high above
> 90% charge
> with high current. I 'babysit' this charger setup
> and shut it down
> soon after seeing the high voltage rise. Same with
> the sealed batteries
> in the scooter. I only plan on using it for
> opportunity charging
> though. If you plan on using it for a full charge,
> plan on being
> a babysitter :-)
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > From: "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >>I have been looking for a couple of switchmode
> power supplies to use
> >>as a battery charger for my moped. Well, I found
> some at an
> >>incredible price and have to pass this one along.
> 250W for $8. They
> >>are rated at 24V, but adjusting the trim pot on
> the board I can get
> >>from 20-27V out.
Isn't this a little low voltage for battery
charging? Would they ever equalize at that voltage for
lead batts?
I think someone mention using them for ni-cads
but for them you need 1.6v/cell so a battery for 20
ni-cad cells, 24vdc nom, charging would need to be
32vdc and lead batts, 29-30vdc to charge all the way
in a reasonable time like overnight.
BTW, SAFT ni-cad cells weigh 50% more than battery
mono-blocks do so try for batts instead of cells.
While we're on chargers I have a 50amp/12vdc nom
ferro charger/ maintainer for yachts.
The problem is I want to use it for quick
charging at 25+ amps/28vdc but is a couple volts
short.
Can I disconnect the cap ?
If I do I want to put a switch to switch it in
and out to use it for high and safe charge rates. What
kind of voltage rating would it need?
Got the 24vdc nom just by using a bridge
rectifier instead of the full wave. It has 4-24vct
windings so could be used for 12, 24, 48 amd 96 vdc
charging with a little work.
> <http://www.excess-solutions.com/POWERSUP.HTM>
> >>Search for ES2651. I hope this is an acceptable
> use of the list.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:27 PM -0800 11/7/02, jerry dycus wrote:
They
> >>are rated at 24V, but adjusting the trim pot on
the board I can get
>>from 20-27V out.
Isn't this a little low voltage for battery
charging? Would they ever equalize at that voltage for
lead batts?
I think someone mention using them for ni-cads
but for them you need 1.6v/cell so a battery for 20
ni-cad cells, 24vdc nom, charging would need to be
32vdc and lead batts, 29-30vdc to charge all the way
in a reasonable time like overnight.
BTW, SAFT ni-cad cells weigh 50% more than battery
mono-blocks do so try for batts instead of cells.
Yes, it would be too low for a 20 cell battery. However, I will be
using a 34 cell pack and two power supplies, so the roughly 1.6V/cell
I need is easily attainable.
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Rich,
So the jury is still out on the correct charge scheme, how NiZn responds
to shallow cycles (like lead-acid ?), and how many deep discharge cycles
under heavy EV use. Thanks for setting the story straight about not
using a standard Lester charger.
Bill
On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:04:00 -0800 Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Your algorithm is very wrong.
> Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am
> using. Higher charge currents generate more heat. But if cold this
> is not a issue. Lester chargers would be DEATH in less than a single
> cycle. DON't do it.
> We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the
> NiCads have. We are finding this out by trial and error.
> The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the
> voltage until the current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle
> cycle. We need to find a faster method, so we can qualify, the Whole
> pack faster, and have a high level of confidence that
> all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it
> takes a few dozen cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now
> and right out of the box you get about %60 of their rated capacity.
>
> A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them,
> Lets us designers and Battery management contractors get some real
> cycles on them. As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light
> of day. Stick with 15s 40s and 100s. The rest is
> Well vaporware at the moment.
>
> This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before
> we get some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail
> because we all did know what we were doing , can have lasting
> consequences. Remember we Scared Advanced DC out of the
> experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same
> to Evercell.
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon,
My most recent experience has been dealing with Texaco Ovonics to get them
to adjust for the failure of a 3 year old pack of NiMH batteries.
While they would not do anything for the existing pack, they offered to SELL
me another, later model NiMH for $1000 each; which they said would be at a
loss for them. They are so kind.
However I did not buy. I am investigating a replacement battery pack from
'96 Force 4 door.
I plan to sell the balance of the NiMH pack after I replace them.
Don Buckshot
816-582-6891 anytime
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
> Behalf Of Jon "Sheer" Pullen
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:56 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
>
>
> > It's interesting to see the battery discussion topic light up every
> > year around this time as the temperatures start to go down, and
> > with them the capacity of lead acid battery packs.
> >
> > There's been a NiCad "true believer" contingent on this list for a
> > long time, and it like the Evercell product is gradually maturing
> > toward being a viable consideration. But what about NiMH...
> > NiMH offers over double the energy density (& specific energy)
> > of lead acid, it's more cold-tolerant, it lasts much longer, and
> > the power/charge/discharge profile is very EV-favorable.
> >
> > Panasonic and Saft make superb nickel EV batteries that work
> > (I now have a Toyota RAV4 which comes with Panasonic NiMH).
> > Ovonic has also demonstrated NiMH products.
> >
> > Has anyone pursued any of these more refined NiMH products?
>
> My attempts at purchasing large NiMH cells have been for the most part
> failures. Prices quoted are always so high as to make me whimper
> and wander
> off still suffering from sticker shock. Maybe this is changing..
> I'd love to
> hear about any lister who is successfully buying large-size NiMH cells.
>
> In the meantime, has anyone heard anything new from the NaNiClAl people?
>
> S.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My guess is that Rich and Jon are developing
the charge scheme for evercel.
I've been there myself developing the charge
profile for SAFT STM-180 and Eagle Pitcher
NiFe batteries for the TEVan.
I have fond memories of writing code at 10pm while
the battery engineers were standing over my shoulder
telling me how it should be done.
I even got the title of 'software while you wait'
sign from my manager at GE.
In any case I would take the info at the Evercel
site with a grain of salt and wait for Rich
to post the 'real' charge profile.
I could be wrong though, what do you think of
this analysis Rich?
Rod
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks Rich,
So the jury is still out on the correct charge scheme, how NiZn responds
to shallow cycles (like lead-acid ?), and how many deep discharge cycles
under heavy EV use. Thanks for setting the story straight about not
using a standard Lester charger.
Bill
On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:04:00 -0800 Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
Your algorithm is very wrong.
Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am
using. Higher charge currents generate more heat. But if cold this
is not a issue. Lester chargers would be DEATH in less than a single
cycle. DON't do it.
We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the
NiCads have. We are finding this out by trial and error.
The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the
voltage until the current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle
cycle. We need to find a faster method, so we can qualify, the Whole
pack faster, and have a high level of confidence that
all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it
takes a few dozen cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now
and right out of the box you get about %60 of their rated capacity.
A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them,
Lets us designers and Battery management contractors get some real
cycles on them. As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light
of day. Stick with 15s 40s and 100s. The rest is
Well vaporware at the moment.
This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before
we get some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail
because we all did know what we were doing , can have lasting
consequences. Remember we Scared Advanced DC out of the
experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same
to Evercell.
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
keith bierman wrote:
> EVdash has an "export to memo" feature. It's easy to then cut
> and paste
> the individual memo onto a host based spreadsheet or graphics program
> (e.g. staroffice, gnuplot , etc.)
That would be limited to 4k, then, since that's the maximum size for a memo.
Thanks for the info, I'll file it away until I can use it.
--
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
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[ref http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/31945 ]
The yahoogroup EV List archive has a search feature. Using
the keywords gm cart gives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/messagesearch?query=gm%20cart
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/31412
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/30306
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/29284
A yahoo search with keywords club pathway gives
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Club+pathway
One link says the cart GM is giving away has been
recalled.
"
http://www.safetyalerts.com/recall/a/02/v00326.htm
Club Car Has Recalled the Pathway. (SafetyAlerts)
- Club Car Has Recalled the Pathway because the
vehicle fails to comply with federal standards. ...
"
One side of GM's mouth bitches nEVs are unsafe, and the
other side touts they are giving away recalled carts.
Go figure.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the EV ascci art above)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
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:: Sniff ::
Bill Egan said my ass, err, my, uhh, Blazer was too big,
and heavy for the largest LRR tire size in the Integrity
model.
The size tire I need for a 5000 lb Blazer is a P235/75R15 .
If I used the
P215/70R15 SL-001 INTEGRITY VSB TL 402 431 047 97 S CAMI
I would be chancing it with my weight.
Sounds like Chuck has shown that if you don't have a big-ass
EV you can good good results with Integrity LRR tires.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the EV ascci art above)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
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David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
For those who want well-documented batteries, backed by a stable company and
a competent team of engineers (whom you can even sometimes understand,
provided you speak French <g>) -- well, for less than what you'll spend on
two Evercell packs -- one to learn on and one to use -- you can have Safts.
You'll get a proven design, explicit instructions for charging and use, and
a minimum cycle life of 2500 (given reasonable care and use). And a little
less adventure. <g>
William K might be onto something with the seasonal interest... I've
been going back and found that it was in October 3 years ago that I
posted a lot about NiCads. And got a lot of great advice.
Three years ago, the cost of the NiCads and all the related upgrades my
truck would need was overwhelming (especially since still new to the EV
scene). Since then I've replaced the controller, worn out some Sam's
batteries, put in a new dc/dc, put in a higher voltage pack of 8-volt
trojan's and a new charger, put in a new pack of USB 8-volter's, and put
in another new charger. The end result is rather than a 120 volt system,
I can now run up to 192 volt packs with no changes and up to 336 volt
packs with only new fuses.
So the jump to some sort of Nickel-based battery is looking much
smaller. And I found that I had posted that there was a way to fit 30 of
the SAFT 100 ahr modules into my existing boxes (now all I have to do is
recreate that design process).
Evercel's are attractive as being sealed, so never need water or
"plumbing", and air cooled and using a relatively simple charging
algorithm. SAFTs are attractive as being "tried and true" performers,
and as flooded's possibly being more tolerate of charging abuses.
Or back to PBA's, but at the very least with heaters this time...
Decision 2002!
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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Roger Stockton wrote:
>
>
> What is the intended use of the car? An advantage of the swing-axle pan
> is that the rear axles/"u-joints" are virtually indestructible, unlike
> the IRS CV joints. If massive torque and/or drag racing type use is
> anticipated, then the swing-axle pan may be a better choice, however, if
> autocross type use is more of a priority, then the IRS pan may be more
> appropriate.
>
First, I want to thank Roger and Chris for the responses. In answer to
Roger's question:
I want it to be quicker 0-60 than my 192 volt AGM-T-Rex powered BMW, and
would like for it to corner and ride as well.
I don't plan to enter it in races, and I am not interested in tire
spinning...just pure acceleration and decent handling.
Michael B
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Hello EV listers
Some may recall that my interest is in an eVessel for 40 persons.
These sodium nickel bats have been around for a while, but things look
to be "heating" up... hope some here will comment on this technology!
Sorry, I don't have a price yet. Here're some bits and pieces about
these bats for you:
Santa Barbara, California has operated electric shuttle buses for 11
years.
Santa Barbara Electric Transportation Institute and the Santa Barbara
Electric Bus Works have a demonstration program underway by the SBETI
of an electric bus that utilizes the Zebra sodium nickel chloride
batteries.
One news report:
http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=328
A ZEBRA module of 0.13m³ and 195kg outperforms a lead-acid cell of
0.19m³ and 525kg, at all discharge rates. Over a one-hour discharge,
the ZEBRA module delivers double the energy provided by the lead-acid
cell.
Modules are available in configurations ranging from 24V to 1000V and 2
to 50kWh.
ZEBRA battery installations are in the region of 50% lighter than the
equivalent energy storage in lead-acid batteries. This saving allows
designers to utilise additional weight flexibility. ZEBRA modules do
not require topping-up, agitation or direct battery cooling, reducing
the need for costly ancillary equipment. The sealed ‘zero-emission’
units ZEBRA and lead-acid battery comparison: sprint and low speed
endurance are cooled indirectly by battery compartment air.
Conditioning charges and discharges are not required.
With advantages such as long life, zero battery maintenance and high
reliability, ZEBRA can demonstrate a significant through-life cost
effective improvement when compared to lead-acid installations.
The Zebra battery has an operating temperature of around 300°C which
requires that the battery pack is enclosed in a thermally insulated
box. This has the advantage that the battery is independent of the
ambient temperature and can operate anywhere in the world. It does
mean, however, that its use is restricted to applications where
relatively large batteries are required. Thus there are no applications
in the consumer markets such as mobile phones, power tools, car starter
batteries etc.
The next generation of Zebra batteries under development have higher
power to energy ratios and would be suitable for series hybrid cars.
The battery gives a pure EV capability in the city centre and the
internal combustion engine, or in the future the fuel cell, gives an
extended range outside the city centre. Batteries for this application
would be around 10 kWh.
The battery is abuse tolerant:
 overcharge >20%
 withstand overheating fully charged >600°C
 withstand repeated freeze/thaw
 qualification of cells and batteries completed with extreme
abuse tests
 cells hermetically sealed
 reactants have low vapour pressures at elevated temperatures
 reaction products formed following fracture of beta alumina
are NaCl and Al (In other words, in the event of a severe crash, the
two liquids (molten sodium and molten sodium aluminium chloride)
combine to form solid sodium chloride and aluminium. )
The ZEBRA battery consists of nickel (Ni) and sodium chloride (NaCl, or
common table salt) electrodes, separated by a ceramic electrolyte. The
battery offers one of the highest energy densities available giving a
car 150 to 250 km (90-150 mile) range with an estimated 100,000 mile
service life. The battery is 100% recyclable.
Mercedes are now offering the Zebras as an option to gels in their
Sprinter vans:
http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/ecars/transporter/sprinter/alternative/tech_data2.htm#2
These are the folks that originally developed the Zebra:
http://www.betard.co.uk/
The Zebra project, including Beta R&D Ltd., was taken over by MES in
March 1999. MES is a Swiss company located in Stabio, near Lugano and
is part of the CEBI group of companies. They are suppliers to the
automotive industry world wide and have established an Alternative
Energy Division (MES-DEA). They have recently completed a new factory
for larger scale production. Initial production quantities are expected
to be up to 2000 battery units/year. The factory site allows for an
increase in production to 100,000 units/year if there is sufficient
market demand.
Another news report:
http://www.nidi.org/nickel/special/1/7.htm
Again, sorry, I have no figures yet on "bang for the buck"... But Santa
Barbara are pretty impressed apparently. Here are some slides they
prepared for a seminar a few weeks ago:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/files/SantaBarbaraZebraBus.pdf
Thanks!
Lock
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
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from:
http://www.ieahev.org/pdf/Newslet-vol3-issue1.pdf
How much do hybrid cars use their batteries?
- Terry Penney
National Renewable Energy Laboratory – Golden, CO, USA
The two hybrid vehicles now available on the market, the Toyota Prius
and the Honda Insight, use very different battery control strategies.
At the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, we measured the
discharging and recharging of the batteries in these two cars during
actual driving.
We found that the Toyota Prius limits its useful battery capacity to
only 40% of the battery pack’s 6.5 Ah rating (about 1.78 W-hr at
nominal voltage of 274 V). During various chassis dynamometer driving
cycles (city, highway, and aggressive US06) the Prius typically
maintained a state of charge (SOC) around 56%, while only using 10% to
15% of its battery capacity over the cycle.
The Insight’s useful capacity is limited to 60% of the rated 6.5 Ah
(about 1.08 W-hr at nominal voltage of 144 V). NREL did not observe a
target SOC during its testing of the Insight, but over the same driving
cycles the Insight only utilized between 4% and 13% of its battery
capacity.
We also looked at the amount of energy that was supplied by the pack
for propulsion. Our testing showed that the Prius derived between 3%
(highway cycle) and 10% (city and US06) of its propulsion energy from
the battery pack (the remainder is supplied by the gasoline internal
combustion engine). The Insight derived between 1% (highway cycle) and
3% (US06) of its propulsion energy from the pack.
We believe the control strategies were influenced by regulations and
test procedures that require the vehicles to be charge sustaining over
the city and highway driving cycles, and also by the 8 year warranty on
the battery, which makes it necessary to minimize stress on the battery
in order to prolong battery life.
Understandably, a cautious approach has been taken during the first two
or three years of hybrid technology on the market. It appears that
there is potential for greater utilization of the battery pack capacity
and perhaps fuel efficiency improvements once more experience is
acquired with the batteries and the regulations and test procedures
catch up with the technology.
Detailed results of NREL work can be found on a NREL web site
http://www.ctts.nrel.gov/analysis/pdfs/31306.pdf
Lock
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On Wednesday, November 6, 2002, at 04:21 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Ok I give, what is it? It's too small to be a Comuta-car. It sounds
about the size of a Honda Goldwing, except they don't come with 10"
wheels.
Well, you got the Honda part right! I'm looking into converting a
vintage Honda, a "Hawaiian" 1970 AN600 Sedan. This was the first car
that Honda ever imported to the US. They were brought to Hawaii first
in 1970 before coming all the way to the mainland, and there were only
about 1,400 of these Hawaiian cars. I want to take this super-rare,
ultra-efficient (50+ MPG) but slow as a slug (30 sec. 1/4 mile) piece
of Honda history and turn it into a wicked mean EV. By all accounts,
this car as an EV will not only continue to be ultra-efficient (capable
of at least a 35-40 mile useable range by my rough figures) but it will
also be a killer in the 1/4. This will definitely be a long-term
project, and I'm hoping that that fact will help me out in terms of
battery, motor and controller technology.
One of the important numbers you are missing is Cd, that's short for
coefficent of drag and combined with the frontal area determines how
much aerodynamic drag the vehicle will experience. If you don't know
what it is (and you need to meausre it in a wind tunnel to get a
correct number, or use some hellaciously complicated math) guestimate
it. Best to guess over.
Some ideas for comparison: a glider wing is about 0.1, the GM EV1 (the
most slippery production car ever) was 0.2, typical modern car is
0.3-0.35, most 18 wheelers are around 0.6 to 0.9, and a brick wall is
about 1.0
I'd guess that the Cd is somewhere close to a normal small hatchback
sedan. What would that be, about 0.3? 0.4?
Of course going by your specs you are trying to build a street racer
so you might not care that much about range, in which case you can
ignore Cd. One of the drag racers would give a better guess at
performance, but I'd guess somewhere around 16 second quarter miles
with the YTs, slower with the NiZn/SVR.
I want this to be an all-around EV. I want range AND killer 1/4 mile
times. If that means waiting for a better battery technology then so
be it, I've got time. The car is a super-cool vintage gasser as it is,
and I wouldn't mind keeping it that way for a while as I assemble EV
supplies. I think that John is onto something with the hybrid battery
pack idea. If a pack of light-weight SVRs in combination with the
NiZns can dish out the same amount of current that the Optimas
otherwise would I can have my amps an eat 'em too! A range of 50 miles
should be easy for the NiZn pack, and since the SVRs will be kept in
reserve and only discharged in those "rare" high-current moments they
should last a good long while as well.
One of the things that I really love about these early Hondas is their
flexibility. If I want, I can even convert to rear-drive. Hmmm, maybe
I'll do a 600 Coupe with direct-drive dual 9" WarPs on a rear axle, a
'Zilla and, oh, about 432V. :-)
Later,
Matt
--
My Favorite Quotes:
"God Bless America." - President George W. Bush
"Let's roll." - Todd Beamer
"From my cold dead hands!" - Charleton Heston, NRA President
"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall!" - President Ronald Reagan
"Words mean things." - Rush Limbaugh
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