EV Digest 2411

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: OT: Hey - are hybrids a "crock"?
        by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: evercel
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  4) RE: evercel
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: Evercell and advanced batteries
        by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: Paul MacCready to speak at WPI
        by "Joyner, Jeffrey K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: evercel
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: ZEBRA sodium nickel chloride batteries - yeeehaa!
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: evercel
        by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) OT: bug out
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Hey - are hybrids a "crock"?
        by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: ZEBRA sodium nickel chloride batteries - yeeehaa!
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 14) Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
        by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: ZEBRA sodium nickel chloride batteries - yeeehaa!
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Cheap switchmode supplies- Ferro mod.
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) What Would Jesus Drive?
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) RAV-4 milestone
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't 10 of these $1000.00 modules be like having a pack of 20 Optimas?
How would it stack up against that many Optimas as it seems that is what a
lot of EVers are used to.  Lawrence Rhodes....$10K pack.  If they make you
go futher wouldn't it be worth it????  Bring the weight of my car down to a
reasonable level..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Evercell and advanced batteries


> Jon,
> My most recent experience has been dealing with Texaco Ovonics to get them
> to adjust for the failure of a 3 year old pack of NiMH batteries.
> While they would not do anything for the existing pack, they offered to
SELL
> me another, later model NiMH for $1000 each; which they said would be at a
> loss for them. They are so kind.
> However I did not buy. I am investigating a replacement battery pack from
> '96 Force 4 door.
> I plan to sell the balance of the NiMH pack after I replace them.
> Don Buckshot
> 816-582-6891 anytime
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
> > Behalf Of Jon "Sheer" Pullen
> > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:56 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
> >
> >
> > > It's interesting to see the battery discussion topic light up every
> > > year around this time as the temperatures start to go down, and
> > > with them the capacity of lead acid battery packs.
> > >
> > > There's been a NiCad "true believer" contingent on this list for a
> > > long time, and it like the Evercell product is gradually maturing
> > > toward being a viable consideration. But what about NiMH...
> > > NiMH offers over double the energy density (& specific energy)
> > > of lead acid, it's more cold-tolerant, it lasts much longer, and
> > > the power/charge/discharge profile is very EV-favorable.
> > >
> > > Panasonic and Saft make superb nickel EV batteries that work
> > > (I now have a Toyota RAV4 which comes with Panasonic NiMH).
> > > Ovonic has also demonstrated NiMH products.
> > >
> > > Has anyone pursued any of these more refined NiMH products?
> >
> > My attempts at purchasing large NiMH cells have been for the most part
> > failures. Prices quoted are always so high as to make me whimper
> > and wander
> > off still suffering from sticker shock. Maybe this is changing..
> > I'd love to
> > hear about any lister who is successfully buying large-size NiMH cells.
> >
> > In the meantime, has anyone heard anything new from the NaNiClAl people?
> >
> > S.
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:24:44PM -0500, Lock Hughes wrote:
> Our testing showed that the Prius derived between 3%
> (highway cycle) and 10% (city and US06) of its propulsion energy from
> the battery pack
...
> The Insight derived between 1% (highway cycle) and
> 3% (US06) of its propulsion energy from the pack.

Rather than a crock, I think it shows dramatic promise for them, which
isn't so great for those of us who want pure EVs...  If these statistics
are true, it shows that the big engines we like really are just for quick
starts and you don't really need much power beyond that.

-- 
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,

Still encounter the similar problem to the 100ah monoblocks.

If using STM1.40B cells:
10 cells ganged together = 12v block
If arranged 2x5, size is 6.7"x8.9"x7.8" (YT is 6.8"x10.0"x7.8" - potentially
nice fit). Weight (without interconnects and strap to hold together) is 30.8
lb (v YT 43.8 lb). So, could easily replace YT with these, except C/1 is
about equivalent to YT (NiCad C/1 = 37ah, YT C/1 = 36ah). So just losing
weight of pack (~170lb, less interconnects).

If using STM1.80B cells:
10 cells ganged together = 12v block
but size-wise, 2x3 = 6.7"x10.0"x7.8" (YT is 6.8"x10.0"x7.8"). This equates
to a little over 6v per block (7.5v exactly, but need some sag, since 10
piece = 12.5v ~ 12v). This block weights about 33 lbs plus straps, etc. If
you can stack 14 of these block (max fit), then you only have 105v system.
Cannot get the same performance as the 156v YT system due to voltage drop.

Best squeeze I might be able to arrange is 20 6v STM-100 (but really too
tight):
10 under seat, although seat would need to be elevated about an inch or so.
7 in the front, with an additional 3 stacked on top. But this overall heigh
of 21+" probably won't fit where clearance was tight with YTs at about 17"
overall height.

Other perspective is 120v of STM1.80B cells makes a 10kwh pack. Right now
YTs have about 4.5kwh usable at 156v. A NiZn MB80-12-8 would make about a
7.25kwh usable pack. Still leaning toward NiZn as the only near-future
replacement solution. LiIon would be nice, but still too many problems.

-Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lussmyer [mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 11:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: evercel


At 01:26 PM 11/7/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
>On 7 Nov 2002 at 9:37, John Lussmyer wrote:
> > As far as I can tell, the only cells they make that MIGHT fit are the
"SBM
> > 11" and "SBM 15".
>
>You must be looking at a different list.  I have their EV applications
>catalog, which lists two cells which are roughly 7.8" high.  All
>measurements are in mm:
>
>STM1.40B        37ah    85L x 45.5W x 198H
>STM1.80B        75ah    85L x 85W x 198H

Those are Smaller and Much higher capacity than the ones that are listed in 
the PDF I downloaded from Saft some time ago: "Ni-Cd Block Battery 
Dimensional and Electrical Data".
Of course I can no longer find this document on their site....
The STM1.80B cells do look good for this usage.  With that AH rating, you 
really only need a single string of them, so 8 cells would replace a single 
YT.  Takes only 1/2 the space as well!
Hmm, a double string would give impressive range for a Sparrow.

Of course, as you say, it's all a waste of time anyway, since Saft isn't 
interested in small orders.

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may have been answered already but here goes anyway.
How do the Evercell batteries handle long periods of sitting at a partial
charge?

Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVen $10,000 is more than I can afford, however the pack replacement price I
got from Eric Johnson at Texaco Ovonics is $17,000; too much for me
reguardless of how that compares to other batteries.

It is true that the Force only uses 1 Ah per mile, and the batteries are
85Ah rated. I don't have an issue with range in this car, I only need 40
mile range for the every day stuff.

What I do need is better reliability of this battery pack because my wife
uses the car to go to and from work (only 11 miles each way).
Even lead acid would do that with this drive system. These NiMH are not
tolerant of heat, even in a moderate climate like we have in Kansas City.
This past summer I had several bad experiences (controller drop out) because
of the heat and marginal battery cells.


I did see on the Solectria web site
(http://www.solectria.com/products/usedcars.html) a 1996 Force just like
mine for sale by American Electric Power for the same reason, battery
problems causing the controller to drop out due to low voltage. They stated
that they are tired of spending money on keeping the car running. I too am
exasperated with just keeping it going!

I would almost muster up $10,000 for a pack IF I could count on them to
last, maybe 10 years ... but it is abundantly clear that Texaco Ovonics NiMH
such as I now have won't do that. I have no confidence in their new product
either.

My best experience in the few years I have been into EVs has been in a
little Renault LeCar with lead acid pack. Not much of a car and overloaded
with the 1200 lb weight of the pack, but very reliable ... it never left me
stranded!

As to Optimas, I have just started to investigate alternative batteries.

Enough said, thanks for the forum.

Don Buckshot
816-582-6891


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 2:03 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
>
>
> Wouldn't 10 of these $1000.00 modules be like having a pack of 20 Optimas?
> How would it stack up against that many Optimas as it seems that is what a
> lot of EVers are used to.  Lawrence Rhodes....$10K pack.  If they make you
> go futher wouldn't it be worth it????  Bring the weight of my car
> down to a
> reasonable level..............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 5:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Evercell and advanced batteries
>
>
> > Jon,
> > My most recent experience has been dealing with Texaco Ovonics
> to get them
> > to adjust for the failure of a 3 year old pack of NiMH batteries.
> > While they would not do anything for the existing pack, they offered to
> SELL
> > me another, later model NiMH for $1000 each; which they said
> would be at a
> > loss for them. They are so kind.
> > However I did not buy. I am investigating a replacement battery
> pack from
> > '96 Force 4 door.
> > I plan to sell the balance of the NiMH pack after I replace them.
> > Don Buckshot
> > 816-582-6891 anytime
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
> > > Behalf Of Jon "Sheer" Pullen
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:56 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
> > >
> > >
> > > > It's interesting to see the battery discussion topic light up every
> > > > year around this time as the temperatures start to go down, and
> > > > with them the capacity of lead acid battery packs.
> > > >
> > > > There's been a NiCad "true believer" contingent on this list for a
> > > > long time, and it like the Evercell product is gradually maturing
> > > > toward being a viable consideration. But what about NiMH...
> > > > NiMH offers over double the energy density (& specific energy)
> > > > of lead acid, it's more cold-tolerant, it lasts much longer, and
> > > > the power/charge/discharge profile is very EV-favorable.
> > > >
> > > > Panasonic and Saft make superb nickel EV batteries that work
> > > > (I now have a Toyota RAV4 which comes with Panasonic NiMH).
> > > > Ovonic has also demonstrated NiMH products.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone pursued any of these more refined NiMH products?
> > >
> > > My attempts at purchasing large NiMH cells have been for the most part
> > > failures. Prices quoted are always so high as to make me whimper
> > > and wander
> > > off still suffering from sticker shock. Maybe this is changing..
> > > I'd love to
> > > hear about any lister who is successfully buying large-size
> NiMH cells.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, has anyone heard anything new from the
> NaNiClAl people?
> > >
> > > S.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
  Hi Don, and All;

   Thanks for the stunning indightment on Ovonics. Of COURSE Texaco doesn't
WANT you to have a battery to do what ya want. For your wife's commute, yur
best off with a lead acid pack.But we can dream, can't we? That's why the
flurry of battery threads on here. I'm prettysick of the Lead scene. Range
dropping away to less than half when it gets cold, and the dying cells.
That's why I'm about there to take the plunge to Evercells. Bet they'd work
nice in a Force.
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: RE: Evercell and advanced batteries


> EVen $10,000 is more than I can afford, however the pack replacement price
I
> got from Eric Johnson at Texaco Ovonics is $17,000; too much for me
> reguardless of how that compares to other batteries.
>
> It is true that the Force only uses 1 Ah per mile, and the batteries are
> 85Ah rated. I don't have an issue with range in this car, I only need 40
> mile range for the every day stuff.
>
> What I do need is better reliability of this battery pack because my wife
> uses the car to go to and from work (only 11 miles each way).
> Even lead acid would do that with this drive system. These NiMH are not
> tolerant of heat, even in a moderate climate like we have in Kansas City.
> This past summer I had several bad experiences (controller drop out)
because
> of the heat and marginal battery cells.
>
>
> I did see on the Solectria web site
> (http://www.solectria.com/products/usedcars.html) a 1996 Force just like
> mine for sale by American Electric Power for the same reason, battery
> problems causing the controller to drop out due to low voltage. They
stated
> that they are tired of spending money on keeping the car running. I too am
> exasperated with just keeping it going!
>
> I would almost muster up $10,000 for a pack IF I could count on them to
> last, maybe 10 years ... but it is abundantly clear that Texaco Ovonics
NiMH
> such as I now have won't do that. I have no confidence in their new
product
> either.
>
> My best experience in the few years I have been into EVs has been in a
> little Renault LeCar with lead acid pack. Not much of a car and overloaded
> with the 1200 lb weight of the pack, but very reliable ... it never left
me
> stranded!
>
      I hear ya! Doing just that, now, 1400 lbs of T-145's in a Rabbit, very
reliable, and enough reserve to get home when it's cold. But it is an
elephant on roller skates Components wearing out prematurely. gotta replace
a tie rod end this morning, it's loose, Nokian tire treads separating, so
car goes lump lump lump down the road. Probably killed it with
overinflation. Not kindness, and a few potholes big enough to park in!
Guilty! 55 is more than it is designed for! Again, pushing things to the
limit, 3300 lb car, gotta expect this. But car is my daily driver. I rarely
run my Sentra, it feels unloved, drive it now an' again to keep it's spirits
up<g>! What my Rabbit has told me is that if you design a car from scratch.
Duh! EV-1, Think, and others, yu have something! We Listers build for what
we need, and DO it!

> As to Optimas, I have just started to investigate alternative batteries.
>
     Yeah! Me too, whatEVer it takes!

     My two volts worth

     Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Nov 2002 at 5:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 10 cells ganged together = 12v block

I may be misunderstanding your thought process here, but if not, why think 
in terms of 12v blocks?  As Jerry Dycus pointed out, indvidual cells have 
the disadvantage of greater weight.  But the big advantage is that you can 
come up with many more creative ways of arranging them to more effectively 
pack a given space.


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again, sorry, I have no figures yet on "bang for the buck"... But Santa
Barbara are pretty impressed apparently. Here are some slides they
prepared for a seminar a few weeks ago:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/files/SantaBarbaraZebraBus.pdf
In this link they quote:

Battery Cost (per kWh)
Pb-Acid ~$250,
Ni-Cd $457,
Zebra $437 in qnty.

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla "Got Amps" Shirts now available online.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" writes:
> 
> On 8 Nov 2002 at 5:40, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > 10 cells ganged together = 12v block
> 
> I may be misunderstanding your thought process here, but if not, why think 
> in terms of 12v blocks?  As Jerry Dycus pointed out, indvidual cells have 
> the disadvantage of greater weight.  But the big advantage is that you can 
> come up with many more creative ways of arranging them to more effectively 
> pack a given space.

Individual cells also have the disadvantage of many more user-installed
interconnects (about 120 for a 120v pack).  These will likely be solid
buss bars unless you have a good solution for very short but flexible
cables.  If you use solid interconnects you now also have the problem
of rigidly mounting 120 cells.

Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The storm that rolled through the west coast Yesterday, had my 
RV rig a rocking all day and night. I felt like I was aboard a
small boat. 

I didn't incurr any real damage (the tomato plants were knocked 
over, green tomatoes everywhere). But high tide is at 2pm, and 
I am next to the SF bay. Four feet flooding is possible. Park
residents have been advised to leave, and have left for higher
ground at a local K-mart.

I moved my S-10 Blazer out the street where it is higher 
ground. Walking through the 1/2 foot flooded areas to get back
to my rig.

I have battened down the hatches and I am poised to unplug and 
bug out (leave) to higher ground. If so, I will be afk and
will not have internet access. So, I will answer email later.

People on the gulf coast might say, what is the big deal?
Well, Californians are a silly lot. They are spoiled, not 
having weather like this. Thus, not only do they stare into
the headlights frozen, not knowing what to do (or drive),
but the infrastructure is not there to handle these 
conditions.

Even if the high tide does not cause a problem, there is more
warm rain tonight. That is strange, because rain in the SF
area is cold because of the Japanese and Alaskan currents.
This weather is almost tropical (like when I was in Orlando,
Florida at EVS-14, or stationed in Biloxi, Mississippi).

Well, I won't going into a rant of how the weather seems to 
have shifted a 1000 miles North, and some of the first
signs of global climatic changes are showing. That is for
other internet discussion areas.

 -Bruce
: soaked :

=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the EV ascci art above)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't find this to indicate that hybrids are a crock at all. If you can
save 10 mpg (20%+) energy by using 3% of battery storage, more power to you!
The reason they don't deep-cycle those batteries is that they want them to
last 10 years. This seems a reasonable strategy to me..

I still wonder if a hydraulic or pneumatic system wouldn't end up being
cheaper and more efficient than electric - but nonetheless, my point
remains. If by using a very tiny amount of energy stored in a battery you
can avoid wasting a large amount of energy stored in dead dinos, then by all
means you should do it.

S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NiZn ~ $250-320

-----Original Message-----
From: Otmar [mailto:otlists@;evcl.com]
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ZEBRA sodium nickel chloride batteries - yeeehaa!


>Again, sorry, I have no figures yet on "bang for the buck"... But Santa
>Barbara are pretty impressed apparently. Here are some slides they
>prepared for a seminar a few weeks ago:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/files/SantaBarbaraZebraBus.pdf

In this link they quote:

Battery Cost (per kWh)
Pb-Acid ~$250,
Ni-Cd $457,
Zebra $437 in qnty.

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Zilla "Got Amps" Shirts now available online.
http://www.evcl.com/914  My electric 914 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I finally got through the Li-Ion references someone had posted earlier as well as looking at thunder-sky.com data and musing over what it would take for a fairly educated hobbyist to use these batteries or cells, assuming someone could actually get them. It looks like a 60KWH pack could be had for about 1000 pounds (weight, not British currency), using the 200Ah cells, which should translate to a range of over 150 miles. So now, Iíll toss my thoughts out for those of you with more smarts than myself to take shots at.

First, it looks like we would have to regulate them at the cell level. The graphs indicate that the cell voltage has a fairly pronounced knee at the upper SOC end as well as the lower SOC end. My thought is to take a lesson from the hybrid folks and run them from not-quite-full to not-too-empty. This should extend cycle life as well as protect the batteries. Li-Ion cells are very intolerant of overcharging. 100% SOC is listed as 4.2 to 4.25 volts depending on your reference. If you stop charging a cell at 4.15 volts (and never exceed 4.15 volts, even during regen), the cell should stay happy. A cell regulator would have to either be able to pass the entire amount of current the charger can produce or else talk to and throttle back the charger when the first cell hits 4.15 volts or slightly before, progressively reducing current as the voltage comes up. This will bring the cells up to ďalmost fullĒ, plenty full for what we would need. Once the Rudman M3 regs are ready for prime time, they could do the job with a modification to 4.15 volts (and Iím sure Rick would love to sell 85 of them to someone with a pack of 85 cells (typical AC system)). Either build the smarts into the PFC-20/50 or control it with an onboard laptop computer, which may be needed anyway.

On the discharge side, Li-Ion cells donít like really heavy currents, particularly at lower SOC, and the lowest voltage a cell can be pulled to is fairly critical. Have seen this to be anywhere from 2.5 to 2.8 volts. This would require that the controller reduce the current limit as the pack voltage started sagging. I donít remember if the Seimans system can be set up to do this automatically, but I believe it can be programmed on the run, which could be done by the onboard laptop based on feedback from the regs. You could build in a turtle mode to get home, pulling very little current when the lowest cell voltage reached a certain point. I think most AC systems have this capability. I donít know if any DC controllers have this capability, but it shouldnít be hard to design in an interface for the laptop to control.

Only other item needed is a thermal management system to keep the cells from getting too hot, or possibly too cold. This would be the easiest part.

So, gang, if money were no object (yeah, right), would a setup like this work? What have I left out? Anyone want to donate the Li-Ion cells for me to play with?

Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan






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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lock Hughes wrote:
> 
> Hello EV listers
> 
> Some may recall that my interest is in an eVessel for 40 persons.
> 

Lock (and all),

Unfortunately your "yeeehaa!" is a bit premature, I wish I could
say otherwise.

The guy in charge of Zebras distribution at MES-DEA in Switzerland 
is Dr. Dustmann.

I have a bunch of correspondence with him and Beta research about
Zebra for last two years. In short, he won't sell it to you 
(as of today), despite him providing quotes. 

As of today to me LiIon seem better alternative than Zebra.
Things may change however.

Good luck contacting Santa Barbara CA officials. Been there
(a year ago). They won't even sell you used Z5C from their buses.

Victor
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>From what I found, the charging efficiency of Nimh is
only about 66%, minus the energy needed for cooling. 
This is an extremely low number!  Assuming everything
else is 100% efficient, we are only getting 66% of the
energy we put in them.  In my opinion, this is
unacceptable!  If the power station is 50% efficient
(on the high end), this means we are actually getting
only about 33% of the total energy content of the fuel
source.

Although this is still much better than the 18.2% we
get from a modern ICE
(http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml), it is much
lower than I thought, especially after I learned that
a fuel cell is about 60% effecient and a Honda Insight
is close to that.  Did I get my numbers wrong
somewhere?

Ed Ang

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Actually, I think the biggest reality check for NiMh batteries is the price. A 100AH pack for my Sparrow (IF I could wedge them in with a crowbar), would be around $39,000.
It's cycle life would be terrific! And probably would be the a cheap option over the (very) long run. It's just that coming up with the money for the pack is a bit difficult.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
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If you disconnect the cap, most of your output power (90% on mine) goes
away.

My Lester puts 600 volts across the cap. You will need a fairly high voltage
switch if you want to do this. I have seen 1000 volt triacs used for
switching a capacitor like this.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Cheap switchmode supplies- Ferro mod.


>      While we're on chargers I have a 50amp/12vdc nom
> ferro charger/ maintainer for yachts.
>      The problem is I want to use it for quick
> charging at 25+ amps/28vdc but is a couple volts
> short.
>      Can I disconnect the cap ?
>      If I do I want to put a switch to switch it in
> and out to use it for high and safe charge rates. What
> kind of voltage rating would it need?
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Dave Davidson wrote:
> 
Hi Dave and all, some comments inserted

> I finally got through the Li-Ion references someone had posted earlier as
...
> 100% SOC is listed as 4.2 to
> 4.25 volts depending on your reference.  If you stop charging a cell at 4.15
> volts (and never exceed 4.15 volts, even during regen), the cell should stay
> happy.

They have been tested up to 5.04V per cell (10 Ah cell). Other than
rising
temp there was no other immediate effect. Long term damage (shorter
cycle life) after overcharge was not discussed though.

> A cell regulator would have to either be able to pass the entire
> amount of current the charger can produce or else talk to and throttle back
> the charger when the first cell hits 4.15 volts or slightly before,
> progressively reducing current as the voltage comes up.

There are several approaches BMS can handle that, you described 
one of them well.

> Either build the
> smarts into the PFC-20/50 or control it with an onboard laptop computer,
> which may be needed anyway.

And make its interface standard, else the only hardware PFC can talk to
will be Rudman regs, which is quite limiting user's choices.
 
> On the discharge side, Li-Ion cells donít like really heavy currents,
> particularly at lower SOC, and the lowest voltage a cell can be pulled to is
> fairly critical.

Up to 3C is fine, or 600A for 200 Ah cells.

> Have seen this to be anywhere from 2.5 to 2.8 volts.  This
> would require that the controller reduce the current limit as the pack
> voltage started sagging.  I donít remember if the Seimans system can be set
> up to do this automatically, 

Yes, this is its standard feature. You don't need a laptop in your EV.

> 
> Only other item needed is a thermal management system to keep the cells from
> getting too hot, or possibly too cold.  This would be the easiest part.

This is a part of decent BMS. Since most of the components are water
cooled,
the "infrastructure" is there.
 
> So, gang, if money were no object (yeah, right), would a setup like this
> work?

Sure, it's been demonstrated (not in the US).

A decent pack may cost about $15k. To me it is better option than
NiZn discussed, but this is matter of taste :-)

> What have I left out?  Anyone want to donate the Li-Ion cells for me
> to play with?

I may have them for sale soon. I doubt Thunder-sky will donate any.
Their main US distributor (Worley energy cells) doesn't.
I have ordered couple 100 Ah "to play with". Will post more when new 
info will be available. I need to decide which ones are best fit
to complete AC system kit.

FYI, 36V and 42V batteries come with BMS, and can be assembled
with either 50 Ah or 100 Ah cells.
 
> Dave Davidson
> Laurel, Maryland
> 1993 Dodge TEVan
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> 
> >From what I found, the charging efficiency of Nimh is
> only about 66%, minus the energy needed for cooling.
> This is an extremely low number!  Assuming everything
> else is 100% efficient, we are only getting 66% of the
> energy we put in them.  In my opinion, this is
> unacceptable!  If the power station is 50% efficient
> (on the high end), this means we are actually getting
> only about 33% of the total energy content of the fuel
> source.

If your fuel source is solar panel/wind, who cares about
charging efficiency (up to the point of course).
You just charge longer, electricity is free to you anyway.

Realistically though, very few will have solar charging capability.

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >From what I found, the charging efficiency of Nimh is
> only about 66%, minus the energy needed for cooling.
> This is an extremely low number!  Assuming everything
> else is 100% efficient, we are only getting 66% of the
> energy we put in them.  In my opinion, this is
> unacceptable!  If the power station is 50% efficient
> (on the high end), this means we are actually getting
> only about 33% of the total energy content of the fuel
> source.
I agree that low efficiency batteries are unacceptable.

If your fuel source is solar panel/wind, who cares about
charging efficiency (up to the point of course).
You just charge longer, electricity is free to you anyway.
But it's not free. I don't know why many people come up with this idea.

I have $18,300.00 worth of solar system on my roof. Considering the time value of money, those "cost" about $1000 a year.If you like you can see the system here http://evcl.com/solar

If my car is more efficient the panels to charge it are correspondingly less expensive.

If the electricity were free, everyone would be using it. Wouldn't that be great!!

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> But it's not free. I don't know why many people come up with this idea.
> 
> I have $18,300.00 worth of solar system on my roof. Considering the
> time value of money, those "cost" about $1000 a year.If you like you
> can see the system here http://evcl.com/solar

It's "free" in terms of it doesn't cost you *extra* every day or every
year because inefficient charging.

You already pay $1k per year to depreciate it, that's given, even if
you charge nothing.

So if you start charge *something* it's free electricity comparing
to charging nothing (and still paying deprecation).

So my point is it's not free in terms of dollars you pay for it,
it's that once it in place, switching to less efficient charging
(so you have to spend more electricity now) is free.

Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Anyone involved with this campaign?  It might be a good thing to get
involved in.  Lawrence Rhodes...

SUBWAY TO HEAVEN
Congregations in 15 states are joining forces this Sunday to belt out
the clean-energy gospel in the launch of a national "What Would Jesus
Drive?" campaign.  Reverend Jim Ball, who directs the Evangelical
Environmental Network, said:  "Jesus wants his followers to drive the
least-polluting, most efficient vehicle that truly meets their needs
-- though first he might look at other ways to get around. ...  He'd
definitely be in favor of us taking public transportation."  His
organization plans to run ads on Christian radio stations and cable
TV asking consumers and automakers to wake up and smell the emissions.

straight to the source:  Washington Post, Katherine Ellison, 08 Nov 2002
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/forward.pl?forward_id=674>

only in Grist:  What would Jesus drive? -- ministers help kick off
new phase of anti-SUV campaign -- by Bill McKibben
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/maindish/mckibben060501.stm?source=daily>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Sorry Bruce if you already posted this, but I thought
it would be interesting reading for the Toyota crowd.
Rod

Utility's EV Fleet Is First Anywhere to Log 8.5 Million Miles

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- The odometer on one of Southern California Edison's (SCE) electric vehicles (EVs) rolled over to 100,000 miles today -- the farthest any plug-in EV anywhere has traveled in real-world driving applications.

Coincidentally, the EV milestone was reached as the Coalition for Clean Air held a celebration at Union Station marking "30 years of clean-air progress."

SCE and Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., tracked the performance and reliability of five RAV-4 EVs until they each reached the 100,000-mile mark using their original nickel-metal-hydride battery packs. Two of the five vehicles are expected to achieve that milestone in early 2003.

SCE's 275 EVs are used primarily by the utility's meter readers, service managers, field representatives, service planners and mail handlers, and for security patrols and carpools. In 12-plus years of operation, SCE's fleet of EVs has logged nearly 8.5 million miles, eliminating more than 1,000 tons of air pollutants, preventing the emission of 4,500 tons of tailpipe carbon dioxide emissions, avoiding the need for 1,700 oil changes, saving 421,500 gallons of gasoline, and reducing fuel costs by nearly $250,000.

In traveling the equivalent of driving from Los Angeles to New York City 34 times, the first car in SCE's fleet of EVs to reach 100,000 miles did so without emitting a single tailpipe pollutant or using a single quart of oil.

"The performance of these zero-emission EVs demonstrates, once again, that electro-drive technology can play an important role in California's fleet and consumer transportation mix, and can serve as a key tool in addressing the state's still-serious air quality problems," said Bill West, a manager in SCE's electric transportation division.

"There's no question that in many cases, electro-drive technology does the same job as internal-combustion engines," West added. "And due to lower fuel and maintenance costs, it does the job more economically while improving air quality and energy security."

SCE and Toyota began the 100,000-mile RAV-4 EV project in February 2000 to obtain data on costs, maintenance, battery life, charging issues and other factors with EVs that are used continually long-term. Employees with long commutes drive the vehicles daily to and from work -- either SCE's headquarters in Rosemead, Calif., or its state-of-the-art EV Technical Center in Pomona, Calif. The test data also showed that EVs with advanced batteries are cost-effective to operate and have an equal lifecycle of comparable internal combustion engine vehicles.

Not only have the EVs met the employees' driving needs, they have proven reliable, with just minimal routine maintenance required, and have demonstrated the long-term durability of the battery packs, motors, controllers and other components. Given the successful operation of these EVs to date, SCE plans to continue using them even after they roll past 100,000 miles.

To support the 100,000-mile project, Toyota provides technical assistance and any parts needed for the vehicles.

"Toyota commends SCE for their commitment to clean air solutions. As our largest RAV-4 EV customer, we also value our partnership in the interest of promoting electric drive technologies," said Ron Broughman, corporate fleet manager for Toyota.

Besides operating its EV fleet, which also enables SCE to meet federal alternative-fuel vehicle requirements for utilities, SCE's electro-drive program analyzes the potential electric system impacts of various electro-drive technologies, and how to most effectively mitigate those impacts.

More than 300,000 electro-drive products -- mainly forklifts, street sweepers, scrubbers and golf carts -- already operate in California. As neighborhood EVs, electric airport ground support equipment, hybrid vehicles and other devices and appliances are added to the electro-drive mix, that number will skyrocket in coming years.

"SCE will continue to help its customers deploy and safely and efficiently operate and charge these electricity-fueled clean alternatives to internal-combustion engine vehicles," said West.

An Edison International company, Southern California Edison is one of the nation's largest electric utilities, serving a population of more than 12 million via 4.3 million customer accounts in a 50,000-square-mile service area within central, coastal and Southern California. For more information on the California electricity market, see www.sce.com .

SOURCE Southern California Edison

CO: Southern California Edison; Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.; Edison International

ST: California

SU:
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