EV Digest 2414

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by josh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries
        by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Theoretical range/performance, which value for MPG?
        by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Aspire weight
        by Michael Haseltine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) NiCads to replace DF6-180?
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) evercels/west coast group buy
        by Andrew Oxner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: NiCads to replace DF6-180?
        by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Theoretical range/performance
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: VW donor questions
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: VW donor questions
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: evercel
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Evercell and advanced batteries
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: Toyota Celicas 
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: evercels/west coast group buy
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: evercel
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:45:14 -0800, you wrote:

>>> Besides, what is the point of having NiMH batteries if you always
>>> keep them partially discharged? Your example (25%-75%) would mean
>>> that you were only using 50% of their capacity. If that's the case
>>> use PbA for your normal trips and rent a Ferrari with the money you
>>> saved on those occasional longer trips.
>
>With any type of battery, you'll get longer life if you avoid fully
>discharging and overcharging it. You want to design so your daily range
>only uses about 50% of the battery's true capacity.
>
>For example, the Toyota Prius uses nimh batteries, and they aggressively
>keep them between 50% and 80% SOC, because it helps them to last the
>80,000 miles they warranty them for. If they had allowed deeper
>discharges, the batteries would be shot in a couple years, and they'd
>have to eat the replacement cost (under warranty).

Along these lines, note that this week I had an interview published in
evworld.com with Stephen Ellis of Honda.  I wasn't as prepared as I
usually like to be, and I'm not mentioning the interview because I
that it's any great shakes.  Our encounter just sort of "came up"
because I was at Riverside to tape-record the presentation there.

He was willing to speak with me on-record about some of Honda's
experiences with the EV+, and I thought this was a more-direct step
than other manufacturers have been willing to do, and he discussed at
some length that they have had different results with NiMh lifetime,
depending on driver behaviour.

I know that there are a variety of responses that EV advocates are
accustomed to giving to manufacturer's usual reasons for not making
EV's, and I know that manufacturers who dare to make public statements
about their EV programs are in for some criticism from members of the
public who have not been allowed to buy the car they want.

But, on the basis of the idea that we need as much good information as
we can get as to how EV's are working out, from as many sources as
possible, my thought was that on balance, Mr. Ellis had a lot to say
to the likes of us as to how the Honda EV+ program has worked out, and
how their NiMh batteries have held up.  I think his information was
useful.  The key, in my view, would be to not rely on it as a sole
source of information, but to add it to our many other sources to form
an accurate picture of how NiMh and other technologies are working
out.

http://www.evworld.com/databases/printit.cfm?storyid=440
http://www.evworld.com/databases/printit.cfm?storyid=446

If any readers choose to make responses, note that I request they be
civil and-or polite and constructive.  Mr. Ellis was dramatically more
willing to speak to our readers than some other manufacturers, and I
hope that will continue with him and a few others.  He was also
extremely personally and professionally enthusiastic about a wide
range of EV and hybrid technologies.  And the Civic Hybrid test-drive
I had was kick-ass.

I have started a forum here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evworld/
should respondents prefer that area for posting, or cross-posting, a
response to evworld.com articles.

jl
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about designing a pack to provide the necessary range, but charge it
only to 80%, and discharge to 50%; with an occasional charge to 100%.
How would that affect lifetime?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Reality Check on Nimh Batteries


> >> Besides, what is the point of having NiMH batteries if you always
> >> keep them partially discharged? Your example (25%-75%) would mean
> >> that you were only using 50% of their capacity. If that's the case
> >> use PbA for your normal trips and rent a Ferrari with the money you
> >> saved on those occasional longer trips.
> 
> With any type of battery, you'll get longer life if you avoid fully
> discharging and overcharging it. You want to design so your daily range
> only uses about 50% of the battery's true capacity.
> 
> For example, the Toyota Prius uses nimh batteries, and they aggressively
> keep them between 50% and 80% SOC, because it helps them to last the
> 80,000 miles they warranty them for. If they had allowed deeper
> discharges, the batteries would be shot in a couple years, and they'd
> have to eat the replacement cost (under warranty).
> 
> If you need a range of 25 miles a day, and put in a lead-acid pack that
> can barely do it when new, then your batteries will be shot in less than
> a year. They've still got 90% of their capacity, but it's no longer
> enough for your commute.
> 
> If you oversize the pack for a 50-mile range, then your daily drive only
> discharges it 50%, and the pack will last several years due to the
> shallower discharges. You can keep using the batteries until only 50% of
> their capacity is left.
> 
> But suppose you needed a 50-mile daily range. Your car can't carry
> enough lead-acid batteries to achieve a 100-mile range. But with nimh,
> you can design for a 100-mile range, and only use 50 miles daily. Now
> your expensive nimh pack will last for years.
> -- 
> Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>   Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:23:54 -0700
>   From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>        When the discussion turns to range estimates, I always chime in with:
>                               MPG x  (lb of batteries)
>Maximum Range = ---------------------------------------
>                                         500
>        Where Maximum Range is in miles, and MPG is the miles per gallon the car 
>had before conversion. 

Bill
Would you use the actual MPG value for your use (in town MPG predicts in
town range)?
I'm guessing the EPA values would be optimistic.
-- 
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The problem here is like Lee's aphorism that a person with two voltmeters doesn't know his voltage. Just weigh one end and the whole thing, then you'll know your weight distribution and won't have math problems.

I'll bet you weighed the front of the car and then
drove across the scale and weighed the back end on the
other side right?
Most of those big scales are designed to have the
weighed centered on them and will give different
readings for the same weight on one side vs the other
side.

Try pulling forward on to the scale as far as possible
without getting your back wheels on it.  Get your
weight and then back off, turn the car around and back
onto the scale until just before the front wheels get
on the scale.

This way you weigh both ends of the car on nearly the
same spot on the scale.  By driving on until just
before the other set of wheels gets on you get your
vehicle more towards the center (most acurate part) of
the scale.


On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, "Lawrence Rhodes" wrote:

 Maybe it was the scale.  Anybody know of a better
scale
 than the one at San
 Francisco Sunset Scavenger?  With the front wheels and
 then the rear wheels
 on the scale seperately that weight didn't add up to
 the gross weight with
 the whole car on the scale.  What information did I
 leave out?  1715 front
 1475 rear curb weight aprox.  I don't know where my
 weight mostly was.  I
 assume up front.  Even with all that weight in the
 back(800 pounds) the
 front is heavier.  The Aspire isn't much bigger than a
 Metro but it is a few
 hundred pounds heavier.  I think my car is as heavy or
 heavier than an EV +
 and much smaller.  I guess some cars have 50% battery
 weight.  Mine is only
 about 39%.  Lawrence Rhodes..
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:16 AM
 Subject: Re: Aspire weight


 > That's not a lead sled, that's a lite weight by
 conversion standards.
 > IMHO Lead sleds weigh 4,000-5,000
 >
 > You didn't give us enough information to answere
your
 question about
 > front to rear weights, but while the angle of the
car
 does to a small
 > extent change the weight distribution, it has no
 effect on whether it
 > "adds up".
 >
 > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
 >
 > >Talk about a lead sled.  The green machine or as
the
 kids call it Freddy
 > >Ford is a bit of a pig.  It weighs 3500 pounds with
 me in it.  1840 front
 > >1600 rear.  That is from a dump scale.  I think
it's
 right at least on
 the
 > >gross weight.  I calculated 3300 curb weight.  Take
 250 my weight from
 3500
 > >that and that is 3250.  Not bad for an educated
 guess.  There is a few
 > >pounds missing in the front to rear and it might be
 because the car is
 high
 > >in the back and low in the front.   The surface
 seemed level at the
 scale.
 > >I am concerned about the lightness of the rear.  It
 has 800 pounds behind
 > >and in front of the rear axle.  If I raise the
front
 a bit might this
 change
 > >the front to rear weight ratio?  A little confused
 because the front and
 > >rear weights don't add up right.  Lawrence
Rhodes...
 > >
 > >
 > >
 >
________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Folks:
Just bought my first EV and need to replace battery...heh.
Presently using 18x Sonnenschein DF6-180.
Anyone with experience upgrading to NiCads out there?
Or is this just crazy talk?
I know the  Sonnenschein's are a DIN size so I just figured Saft might make
something in the same size case, as my battery boxes were designed around
the DF6-180.
Thanks!
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
92 EVcort
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,

It is with great interest that I have been following
the discussion of purchasing and testing Evercel's new
MB-80 batteries.  As you may recall, I'm the fellow
with the Optima powered 192V MR-2 conversion in Reno,
NV.

Being totally feed up with both the Optimas and sealed
PbA batteries in general (which fail right-and-left at
the university where I work), I'm willing to take the
risk of NiZn technology if we can drive the price down
to be similar to the Optima ($200-250 ea).  I propose
that a west coast group buying pool be assembled to
get a large shipment into San Francisco as soon as
practical.  By working together, we should be able to
get a substantial price break.  All involved need to
understand that they will be testing a new and unknown
product with challenges built in.  No matter what
happens, it will be interesting!  

-Andrew

P.S.  From some discussions, it sounds as if the
PFC-20 and voltage reg combination will work to charge
these batteries.  Other discussions speak of the need
for temperature compensated charging.  Where are we on
the care and feeding issues?                       

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Take a look at Tom Hudson's web site.  This is a Solectria Force but is
a good view of what is involved.

http://www.portev.org/solectria/ho/nicad.htm

- Will

Will Beckett

Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)

Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations
are tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu] On
Behalf Of Marvin Campbell
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 2:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: NiCads to replace DF6-180?


Dear Folks:
Just bought my first EV and need to replace battery...heh. Presently
using 18x Sonnenschein DF6-180. Anyone with experience upgrading to
NiCads out there? Or is this just crazy talk? I know the  Sonnenschein's
are a DIN size so I just figured Saft might make something in the same
size case, as my battery boxes were designed around the DF6-180. Thanks!
J. Marvin Campbell Culver City, CA 92 EVcort

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube wrote:
When the discussion turns to range estimates, I always chime in with:


MPG x (lb of batteries)
Maximum Range = ---------------------------------------
500

Where Maximum Range is in miles, and MPG is the miles per gallon the car had before conversion. This assumes an ordinary ICE, typical vehicle, ordinary lead-acid batteries, and a well set up conversion with low RR tires and good alignment.
I just tried that on a few cars and often its not far off from what I use to figure range. However, in some cases it came out with numbers that I wouldn't believe (I suppose that indicates that some engines are more/less efficient that average).

I like:

(lbs of batteries)
-------------------------------- =Y
lbs of vehicle converted)

If Y is 33% (0.33) let X be 0.05. For each percent that Y is greater than 33% increase X by 0.001. For each percent that Y is less than 33% decrease X by 0.001.

(lbs of batteries) * X = Maximum Range

This has the advantage of working for more customized vehicles where the original MPG data is meaningless, as well as older vehicles that lack MPG data. It also solves the question of which engine option to use for figuring range.

My Buggy:
450
------- = Y = 31.7%
1420

450 * 0.049 = 22 miles of range

In practice that is not true, its actually 20 miles. However, the wheels and tyres where chosen for looks instead of rolling resistance, its got the areo qualities of a drag chute, and with a car that light the driver increases the weight quite a few more percent than in a normal conversion. Seems to do pretty good.

One of the cases where our methods differ is to try 10 Optimas in a stock Beetle. I'm coming up with about 17 miles, but the mileage method is about 25.

Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael wrote:
What does a typical air-cooled VW engine weigh?
250lbs

And, to answer Neon's question, I am going to have to put batteries in
every available space in order to get the performance that I would be
looking for.
Is this another argument in favor of IRS?
Don't load up the back end and use a swingaxle. The handling will get your attention, and not in a good way.

 More donor questions-
I once swapped a 67'Ghia front end into a '66 bug to get the disc brakes.
Are the Ghia and bug pans the same size?  What year did Ghia start with the
disc brakes?
I don't know the range of years. Nowdays its more common to visit a VW speed shop and buy the spindles, disc brakes, and new master cylinder. If you want disc brakes out back there is a kit to install 914 rear brakes. The advantage of this is off the shelf replacement parts and a working e-brake.

Michael wrote earlier:

I want it to be quicker 0-60 than my 192 volt AGM-T-Rex powered BMW, and
would like for it to corner and ride as well.
I don't plan to enter it in races, and I am not interested in tire
spinning...just pure acceleration and decent handling.
What kind of range are you looking for? As the weight goes up it takes more and more power to go fast. As the weight goes up the Beetle front suspension will show its antique design too. I could see 13 Optimas and a DCP1200 being ALOT of fun in a car that doesn't even weigh 2000 lbs. If you use GC batteries its nearly impossible to get a power to weight ratio any better than 46lbs per HP, a Geo Metro only has to pack 33lbs per HP. Of course, alot of Optimas and a T-rex would have great scoot and decent range, perhaps that is what you have in mind?

You also asked previously what to look for in a donor Beetle. I would pick a cheap Bug with good floor pans and no sign of frame or front beam damage (rust or accident). Then I would plan to go through the whole thing yourself. There is not much to the pan so its not very expensive to make a fully rebuilt rolling frame. If you want IRS I recommend '69 - '72 car, if you choose swingaxle I recommend '61 through '64 or '65 (OK, I've forgotten here, did the brakes changes start in '65 or '66 - I don't like parts used only a year or two).

Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I were to do a VW again I would put a few batteries up front in the gas
tank area.  I put it into a four wheel drift with my two kids in the back
seat just going into traffic from a stop and making a hard right turn.  My
56 oval window had a weight of 2250 curb.  It would loose traction on the
front wheels locking up the front wheels.   It had 630 pounds of batteries
and it was concentrated on and around the back axle. Under the back seat.
Next to the motor.  Lawrence Rhodes.  It would seat 5
people.........................
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: VW donor questions


>
>
> Paul G wrote:
>
> > I actually prefer the swingaxle design for simplicity and all oiled
> > ball bearing design. With the Bug engine in the back they are mildly
> > twitchy, with anything heavier way in the back they can get downright
> > dangerous (so where are you planning to put batteries).
>
> What does a typical air-cooled VW engine weigh?
> And, to answer Neon's question, I am going to have to put batteries in
> every available space in order to get the performance that I would be
> looking for.
> Is this another argument in favor of IRS?
>  More donor questions-
> I once swapped a 67'Ghia front end into a '66 bug to get the disc brakes.
> Are the Ghia and bug pans the same size?  What year did Ghia start with
the
> disc brakes?
> Thanks-
> Michael B.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am coming a bit late to this thread this week.

William GeeZ!!! of course we have looked at them, I don't have a small house
worth of money for either chemistry.  And that's the point the cost benefit and
the up front cost to get in the game.

$30K is not a clear alternative for most of us.

William Korthof wrote:

> It's interesting to see the battery discussion topic light up every
> year around this time as the temperatures start to go down, and
> with them the capacity of lead acid battery packs.
>
> There's been a NiCad "true believer" contingent on this list for a
> long time, and it like the Evercell product is gradually maturing
> toward being a viable consideration. But what about NiMH...
> NiMH offers over double the energy density (& specific energy)
> of lead acid, it's more cold-tolerant, it lasts much longer, and
> the power/charge/discharge profile is very EV-favorable.
>
> Panasonic and Saft make superb nickel EV batteries that work
> (I now have a Toyota RAV4 which comes with Panasonic NiMH).
> Ovonic has also demonstrated NiMH products.
>
> Has anyone pursued any of these more refined NiMH products?
>
> And then of course there's Lithium Polymer, which is being
> produced by Saft and a bunch of Asian sources. Has anyone
> had any luck?
>
> >A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them, Lets us
> >designers and Battery management contractors get some real cycles on them.
> >As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light of day. Stick with 15s
> >40s and 100s.  The rest is
> >Well vaporware at the moment.
> >
> >This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before we get
> >some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail because we all did
> >know what we were doing , can have lasting consequences. Remember we
> >Scared Advanced DC out of the
> >experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same to
> >Evercell.
> >Subject: RE: VW donor questions

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea you all could wait a while. I am under NDAs about what I know.  So.... I
have learned a lot but can't tell you all about it. This kinda hacks me off,
but that's the deal that I signed for. I can give hints.

Sheer's assessment is right, My analog controlled curves on the PFC charger
are quite nice and do very well. We have gotten them to take name plate
amphora,  but not yet got them to surrender it.

There is a way to wake them up....

 They will make 500+ amps for short burst.
Test data supports the idea that 13 of them in Goldie would hand me a 30 mile
EV. This is about %60 of what they are suppposed to do.
Promising is not the word I would use....It's not optimistic enough.

Cycle life data will be coming soon. and What is a safe DOD.
DOD is thermally limited.

I have seen a few ways to kill them. We haven't done so, but it's clear that
it would have happened.

The Evercells are NOT lead acids, they are totally different beasts. The dos
and Don'ts are a lot different.

But they are tamer than what I was lead to expect.
Now ,can we get Evercell to put on a professional sales , and support image??
Can we get them to produce in volume and get the price down?  The Quality
control is about the same level as the Optimas had the first few years they
were available.  NOT perfect, but except able.

The biggest issue is the first 5 cycles that have to be done with care and
observation of each Battery. This level of test and qualification is a killer
to the industrial exceptance of this battery. Building a test and charge
fixture is not what you would expect to have to do for a $250 battery. At $650
they are simply out in the NiMH world. NOT cost effective.


Rod Hower wrote:

> My guess is that Rich and Jon are developing
> the charge scheme for evercel.
> I've been there myself developing the charge
> profile for SAFT STM-180 and Eagle Pitcher
> NiFe batteries for the TEVan.
> I have fond memories of writing code at 10pm while
> the battery engineers were standing over my shoulder
> telling me how it should be done.
> I even got the title of 'software while you wait'
> sign from my manager at GE.
> In any case I would take the info at the Evercel
> site with a grain of salt and wait for Rich
> to post the 'real' charge profile.
> I could be wrong though, what do you think of
> this analysis Rich?
> Rod
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Thanks Rich,
> > So the jury is still out on the correct charge scheme, how NiZn responds
> > to shallow cycles (like lead-acid ?), and how many deep discharge cycles
> > under heavy EV use.    Thanks for setting the story straight about not
> > using a standard Lester charger.
> > Bill
> >
> > On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:04:00 -0800 Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > writes:
> >
> >>Your algorithm is very wrong.
> >>    Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am
> >>using.  Higher charge currents generate more heat. But if cold this
> >>is not a issue. Lester chargers would be DEATH in less than a single
> >>cycle. DON't do it.
> >>    We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the
> >>NiCads have. We are finding this out by trial and error.
> >>The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the
> >>voltage until the current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle
> >>cycle. We need to find a faster method, so we can qualify, the Whole
> >>pack faster, and have a high level of confidence that
> >>all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it
> >>takes a few dozen cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now
> >>and right out of the box you get about %60 of their rated capacity.
> >>
> >>A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them,
> >>Lets us designers and Battery management contractors get some real
> >>cycles on them. As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light
> >>of day. Stick with 15s 40s and 100s.  The rest is
> >>Well vaporware at the moment.
> >>
> >>This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before
> >>we get some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail
> >>because we all did know what we were doing , can have lasting
> >>consequences. Remember we Scared Advanced DC out of the
> >>experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same
> >>to Evercell.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Visit www.juno.com
> >
> >

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Don Buckshot wrote:

> EVen $10,000 is more than I can afford, however the pack replacement price I
> got from Eric Johnson at Texaco Ovonics is $17,000; too much for me
> reguardless of how that compares to other batteries.
>
> It is true that the Force only uses 1 Ah per mile, and the batteries are
> 85Ah rated. I don't have an issue with range in this car, I only need 40
> mile range for the every day stuff.
>
> What I do need is better reliability of this battery pack because my wife
> uses the car to go to and from work (only 11 miles each way).
> Even lead acid would do that with this drive system. These NiMH are not
> tolerant of heat, even in a moderate climate like we have in Kansas City.
> This past summer I had several bad experiences (controller drop out) because
> of the heat and marginal battery cells.
>
> I did see on the Solectria web site
> (http://www.solectria.com/products/usedcars.html) a 1996 Force just like
> mine for sale by American Electric Power for the same reason, battery
> problems causing the controller to drop out due to low voltage. They stated
> that they are tired of spending money on keeping the car running. I too am
> exasperated with just keeping it going!
>
> I would almost muster up $10,000 for a pack IF I could count on them to
> last, maybe 10 years ... but it is abundantly clear that Texaco Ovonics NiMH
> such as I now have won't do that. I have no confidence in their new product
> either.
>
> My best experience in the few years I have been into EVs has been in a
> little Renault LeCar with lead acid pack. Not much of a car and overloaded
> with the 1200 lb weight of the pack, but very reliable ... it never left me
> stranded!
>
> As to Optimas, I have just started to investigate alternative batteries.
>
> Enough said, thanks for the forum.
>
> Don Buckshot
> 816-582-6891

.I am doing this Evercell work to look for better batteries than Optimas.

Mine have done well, and 4 years of drag racing and racing hell have done them
in. Also over here in Kistap a 10 mile range is very close to toy status not
reliable short range work.
    Neutering Goldie for range is a good idea. But it still hurts.  The Fiero
may get the long range battery pack.

I would like to do the hybrid pack ideas, and maybe proto up the wiring and
control gear to make it practical for the rest of us not so electron wise.

I would like to do a EverRanger, but my contacts need to come begging for
chargers again.

So there is alot hanging on just what the Evercells can do.  The range and cost
make these these the poor man's NiMH battery, that's why they are so important
to me and this EV list. $10,000 of Evercells is a 45 Kwhr pack.that weighs in at
2000 lbs.... and would make a nice 515 volt Ac drive  pack.



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote
> Thanks for the info . after looking there I fine its not a 
> Celica but a tercel which is 830kg ( cel was all that was left of emblem) 
> so 1905 might really be the weight.

Slightly different.  :-)
But I can see how the confusion would arise.

As far as I can see, the Tercel is pretty much the same thing as a
Starlet, maybe a little smaller.  There are lots of them (newer
ones) in the car yards here but they're all automatics, imported
second-hand from Japan.


> I need another project like a hole in the head

Funny, that's exactly what I was thinking over the weekend when I
started getting myself involved in school electric car project.
(So far I've seen 3 other adults and 1 schoolkid working on it!)

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The secret to getting ahead is getting started.  The secret to
getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks
into smaller manageable tasks, and simply starting on the
first one."     --- Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a BatReg mod to change the thermal slope to match the upper part of
the Evercell temp compensation curve and a different mod for the bottom of
the curve. The curve has two slopes and regs can be matched to either one,
but not both.

You need to choose if you will be operating in cold temperatures or hot
temperatures and request the appropriate portion of the curve.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Oxner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 2:48 PM
Subject: evercels/west coast group buy


> Hi,
>
> It is with great interest that I have been following
> the discussion of purchasing and testing Evercel's new
> MB-80 batteries.  As you may recall, I'm the fellow
> with the Optima powered 192V MR-2 conversion in Reno,
> NV.
>
> Being totally feed up with both the Optimas and sealed
> PbA batteries in general (which fail right-and-left at
> the university where I work), I'm willing to take the
> risk of NiZn technology if we can drive the price down
> to be similar to the Optima ($200-250 ea).  I propose
> that a west coast group buying pool be assembled to
> get a large shipment into San Francisco as soon as
> practical.  By working together, we should be able to
> get a substantial price break.  All involved need to
> understand that they will be testing a new and unknown
> product with challenges built in.  No matter what
> happens, it will be interesting!
>
> -Andrew
>
> P.S.  From some discussions, it sounds as if the
> PFC-20 and voltage reg combination will work to charge
> these batteries.  Other discussions speak of the need
> for temperature compensated charging.  Where are we on
> the care and feeding issues?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
> http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.


> Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder nights make
them
> crazy.  Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler goes low.
> Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty.  With no where to go
> this little pup comes up.  Like fireflys in the night.  Such a delight.
> Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight.  It's so right.  The
> timer clicks and they have their night.  Dialing in is nice but what of
the
> digital era.  It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W goes one way
> Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go up.
That's
> not the way to train a pup.  Temperature sensitive and feed back hay.
> That's the only way,  corrected for temperature OK......Will the Mark III
> see this day????  A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to every poet
ever
> born and to anyone else offended....
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Dave,
I have several accelerators in the basement that were
pulled out for some malfunction. I put one in my electric
Fiero and it stranded me once. The problem was dead spots
in the potentiometer. The TEVan accelerator has two potentiometers.
One is a back up. The dead spots make the controller stop and output
a fault code (you could see this with the appropriate meter, I have
several in the basement, there called LXT displays).
Anyhow, I've had the same problems with my van lately, quite anoying.
I guess the only solution is to find a better potentiometer, but incorporating this on the existing assembly will be a pain in the
butt. The Pot just puts out the equivalent of 3.5V to 0V full speed,
so I guess there are alternatives, but I'm not willing to fix it
until I have to call AAA :-)
Rod

Dave Davidson wrote:
> Rod,
>
> I'll certainly give you right of first refusal. It never has been
> anything major, and when running right, I get 45 miles at least before
> the low pack light comes on. Very seldom take it that far. Mostly to
> and from the train station, running errands, and hauling the kids
> around. It's just been nitpicking stuff.
>
> It's latest thing was not wanting to start out in low gear. Did fine
> (but terribly slow) in high, and was intermittent. Got to where it was
> moving about 10 feet in low and dying, if it moved at all - had to shift
> to high to move. The transmission switches checked fine, so I turned my
> attention to the potbox and microswitch. While trying to take some
> measurements, the microswitch broke apart. Apparently it had been
> cracked before. Haven't checked the pot to see if it's dirty and needs
> to be cleaned or replaced. And, yes, only one pot was connected.
>
> Now I'll have to pull the potbox/pedal assembly out before I can tell
> anything else. My suspicion is that the controller was thinking that
> the accelerator was pressed when putting it in gear due to the pot or
> the microswitch was otherwise fooling it.
>
> If you've come across this before, I'd appreciate any ideas.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>> From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
>> Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:24:49 -0800
>>
>> Dave,
>> When you get tired of tinkering with the TEVan let me know.
>> I would like a back up vehicle.
>> I'm in the process of designing a motor control test fixture
>> to get another TEVan on the road.
>> I plan on finishing this project before December, I know the
>> Tevan owner is getting frustrated waiting for a motor control
>> fix.
>> My Tevan is still doing fine, drove 35 miles today running errands
>> and transporting 'stuff' in the cargo space a minivan offers.
>> Rod.
>>
>> Dave Davidson wrote:
>>
>>> Victor,
>>>
>>> Great that you may start carrying them. Will you be getting the
>>> Thunder-sky cells/batteries or from a different supplier?
>>>
>>> How much do you know about the BMS built into the 36 and 42 volt
>>> monoblocks? My fear is that they are designed for the new cars
>>> coming out with the higher voltage system and are not made to be
>>> strung in series. I figure they can't talk to each other, much less
>>> to a control system. I hope I'm wrong as that would tremendously
>>> simplify things.
>>>
>>> My desire is to build a car with the most range I can get. I plan to
>>> retire in a few years and start touring with a motor home. I want my
>>> tag-a-long to be a BEV and it looks like I'll have to build one to
>>> get what I want. I'll be using it to go wherever I want from the RV
>>> park and will probably only be able to charge from the RV park except
>>> when I come to CA. My TEVan meets my needs now, but won't for
>>> travelling. Plus it's beginning to show it's age and needs almost
>>> constant tinkering.
>>>
>>> I figure if I can fit in as many 200AH cells as your system can
>>> handle, I should have phenominal range. I wish I could get a RAV4
>>> EV, but that appears out of the question unless Toyota wakes up and
>>> offers them nationwide.
>>>
>>> I'm probably 2 to 3 years away from building my dream car, but am
>>> learning as much as I can so I can do a first-class job. I can
>>> probably match the RAV4 range with the NiZn, but would like to do
>>> better if I can.
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Dave Davidson
>>> Laurel, Maryland
>>> 1993 Dodge TEVan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Subject: Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
>>>> Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:44:32 -0800
>>>>
>>>> Dave Davidson wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> Hi Dave and all, some comments inserted
>>>>
>>>> > I finally got through the Li-Ion references someone had posted
>>>> earlier as
>>>> ...
>>>> > 100% SOC is listed as 4.2 to
>>>> > 4.25 volts depending on your reference. If you stop charging a
>>>> cell at 4.15
>>>> > volts (and never exceed 4.15 volts, even during regen), the cell
>>>> should stay
>>>> > happy.
>>>>
>>>> They have been tested up to 5.04V per cell (10 Ah cell). Other than
>>>> rising
>>>> temp there was no other immediate effect. Long term damage (shorter
>>>> cycle life) after overcharge was not discussed though.
>>>>
>>>> > A cell regulator would have to either be able to pass the entire
>>>> > amount of current the charger can produce or else talk to and
>>>> throttle back
>>>> > the charger when the first cell hits 4.15 volts or slightly before,
>>>> > progressively reducing current as the voltage comes up.
>>>>
>>>> There are several approaches BMS can handle that, you described
>>>> one of them well.
>>>>
>>>> > Either build the
>>>> > smarts into the PFC-20/50 or control it with an onboard laptop
>>>> computer,
>>>> > which may be needed anyway.
>>>>
>>>> And make its interface standard, else the only hardware PFC can talk to
>>>> will be Rudman regs, which is quite limiting user's choices.
>>>>
>>>> > On the discharge side, Li-Ion cells donít like really heavy currents,
>>>> > particularly at lower SOC, and the lowest voltage a cell can be
>>>> pulled to is
>>>> > fairly critical.
>>>>
>>>> Up to 3C is fine, or 600A for 200 Ah cells.
>>>>
>>>> > Have seen this to be anywhere from 2.5 to 2.8 volts. This
>>>> > would require that the controller reduce the current limit as the
>>>> pack
>>>> > voltage started sagging. I donít remember if the Seimans system
>>>> can be set
>>>> > up to do this automatically,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, this is its standard feature. You don't need a laptop in your EV.
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Only other item needed is a thermal management system to keep the
>>>> cells from
>>>> > getting too hot, or possibly too cold. This would be the easiest
>>>> part.
>>>>
>>>> This is a part of decent BMS. Since most of the components are water
>>>> cooled,
>>>> the "infrastructure" is there.
>>>>
>>>> > So, gang, if money were no object (yeah, right), would a setup
>>>> like this
>>>> > work?
>>>>
>>>> Sure, it's been demonstrated (not in the US).
>>>>
>>>> A decent pack may cost about $15k. To me it is better option than
>>>> NiZn discussed, but this is matter of taste :-)
>>>>
>>>> > What have I left out? Anyone want to donate the Li-Ion cells for me
>>>> > to play with?
>>>>
>>>> I may have them for sale soon. I doubt Thunder-sky will donate any.
>>>> Their main US distributor (Worley energy cells) doesn't.
>>>> I have ordered couple 100 Ah "to play with". Will post more when new
>>>> info will be available. I need to decide which ones are best fit
>>>> to complete AC system kit.
>>>>
>>>> FYI, 36V and 42V batteries come with BMS, and can be assembled
>>>> with either 50 Ah or 100 Ah cells.
>>>>
>>>> > Dave Davidson
>>>> > Laurel, Maryland
>>>> > 1993 Dodge TEVan
>>>> >
>>>> > _________________________________________________________________
>>>> > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
>>>> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
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>>>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Rich,
It seems it would be in their best interest to cycle them
before sending them out? If it is this critical for the first several
cycles I would think they need to do it themselves. They look like interesting batteries for the high voltage AC systems.
Rod

Rich Rudman wrote:
Yea you all could wait a while. I am under NDAs about what I know.  So.... I
have learned a lot but can't tell you all about it. This kinda hacks me off,
but that's the deal that I signed for. I can give hints.

Sheer's assessment is right, My analog controlled curves on the PFC charger
are quite nice and do very well. We have gotten them to take name plate
amphora,  but not yet got them to surrender it.

There is a way to wake them up....

 They will make 500+ amps for short burst.
Test data supports the idea that 13 of them in Goldie would hand me a 30 mile
EV. This is about %60 of what they are suppposed to do.
Promising is not the word I would use....It's not optimistic enough.

Cycle life data will be coming soon. and What is a safe DOD.
DOD is thermally limited.

I have seen a few ways to kill them. We haven't done so, but it's clear that
it would have happened.

The Evercells are NOT lead acids, they are totally different beasts. The dos
and Don'ts are a lot different.

But they are tamer than what I was lead to expect.
Now ,can we get Evercell to put on a professional sales , and support image??
Can we get them to produce in volume and get the price down?  The Quality
control is about the same level as the Optimas had the first few years they
were available.  NOT perfect, but except able.

The biggest issue is the first 5 cycles that have to be done with care and
observation of each Battery. This level of test and qualification is a killer
to the industrial exceptance of this battery. Building a test and charge
fixture is not what you would expect to have to do for a $250 battery. At $650
they are simply out in the NiMH world. NOT cost effective.


Rod Hower wrote:


My guess is that Rich and Jon are developing
the charge scheme for evercel.
I've been there myself developing the charge
profile for SAFT STM-180 and Eagle Pitcher
NiFe batteries for the TEVan.
I have fond memories of writing code at 10pm while
the battery engineers were standing over my shoulder
telling me how it should be done.
I even got the title of 'software while you wait'
sign from my manager at GE.
In any case I would take the info at the Evercel
site with a grain of salt and wait for Rich
to post the 'real' charge profile.
I could be wrong though, what do you think of
this analysis Rich?
Rod

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks Rich,
So the jury is still out on the correct charge scheme, how NiZn responds
to shallow cycles (like lead-acid ?), and how many deep discharge cycles
under heavy EV use.    Thanks for setting the story straight about not
using a standard Lester charger.
Bill

On Thu, 07 Nov 2002 08:04:00 -0800 Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:


Your algorithm is very wrong.
  Less than 58 amps and never exceed 14.2 volts is what I am
using.  Higher charge currents generate more heat. But if cold this
is not a issue. Lester chargers would be DEATH in less than a single
cycle. DON't do it.
  We are looking for a once only "commissioning" charge like the
NiCads have. We are finding this out by trial and error.
The PFC based full current to a set voltage and then hold the
voltage until the current tapers seams to be a safe and gentle
cycle. We need to find a faster method, so we can qualify, the Whole
pack faster, and have a high level of confidence that
all are good and meet the Manufactures specs. It also looks like it
takes a few dozen cycles to get them up to full capacity. Right now
and right out of the box you get about %60 of their rated capacity.

A big warning to you all, before you all buy containers of them,
Lets us designers and Battery management contractors get some real
cycles on them. As I have heard the MB80 have yet to see the light
of day. Stick with 15s 40s and 100s.  The rest is
Well vaporware at the moment.

This stuff is New and we don't want to shell shock Evercell before
we get some real time on them. Having a few 100 batteries fail
because we all did know what we were doing , can have lasting
consequences. Remember we Scared Advanced DC out of the
experimental motor business a few years back. Lets not do the same
to Evercell.


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