EV Digest 2418

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.
        by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: exide
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.
        by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Curtis 1244
        by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: Theoretical range/performance
        by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Evercell NiZi batteries (MB-80)
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: evercel vs AGM - Basis for a FAQ somewhere
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Curtis 1244
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Toyota Celicas, Starlets and Tercels
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Curtis 1244
        by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Two strings better than one.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Two strings better than one.
        by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Chico EAA chapter meeting
        by "Chuck Alldlrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Two strings better than one.
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Hybrid Evercell/AGM pack?
        by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Chcio EAA meeting 11-16-02
        by "Chuck Alldlrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
        by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) E-Meter Questions
        by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have my Sevcon Generation II connected to 2 6v SLA's from an old UPS.
 No water boiling away there.  :)

I've fiddled with the output voltage on the Sevcon myself.  You have to
take out 4 white plastic screws to get the top to become loose (of course
this will void any current warranty).  The output voltage adjustment is
on the end opposite of the power connections, which is nice.  I have mine
set at 13.5v output now.  I had it set higher before, but it didn't help
with the load.  The one I have starts to squeal at about 27 amps at 12v,
and tops out at 30-32 amps of output max.

I would recommend checking the output voltage on the Sevcon, and see what
it is.  If its above 14v, I would recommend turning it down, not only because
of the battery watering, but also because it is using more juice from the
pack than necessary.

Mark


>-- Original Message --
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:19:56 -0800 (PST)
>From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>I'm noticing that I need to keep adding water about
>once a month to my aux. batt. Yet a typical ICE
>alternator doesn't overcharge the aux. batt.  Do other
>EVers out there need to do the same?  It wasn't
>discussed in "Convert It".  Just seems like perhaps
>it's set too high.
>Thanks, 
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
>http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
>

Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Nov 2002 at 9:21, 1sclunn wrote:

> Does anyone have experience with Exide
> GC2H's?

At one point I had some older Exide GC-2s in my Comuta-car.  They dropped 
like flies!   But to be fair, they were used when I got them.

I have heard in recent years that Exide doesn't build "true" deep cycle 
batteries.  That might be just a rumor, though.

How you care for them probably makes more difference than the brand.


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I had the Blazer I had two Sevcons in parallel because of the 12vdc
power requirements of this car.  I had a relay on the ignition switch so
that they would not turn on unless I was using the car.  Some like to
leave it charging all the time but they turn down the output voltage.

- Will

Will Beckett

Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)

Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations
are tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Sevcon DC/DC slow cooking aux. batt.


I'm noticing that I need to keep adding water about
once a month to my aux. batt. Yet a typical ICE
alternator doesn't overcharge the aux. batt.  Do other
EVers out there need to do the same?  It wasn't
discussed in "Convert It".  Just seems like perhaps
it's set too high.
Thanks, 

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is my experience with the 1244.  If you plan on using it in a
commercial product it won't pass EMC emissions for anywhere in the
world that uses the newest standards.  The newer model with almost
exactly the same specs just fewer available voltages is the 1274.  The
1274 is emission tested and ready for most commercial products.  I
thought that I heard somewhere that the REVA was using the 1274 but I
could be wrong.  Can anybody confirm/deny the Curtis 1274 in the REVA?

The 1274 is only available to manufacturers AFAIK.  The 1244 you may be
able to get ahold of for personal use.

Eric


--- cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just Sent an email to Curtis asking about the 1236 AC Induction
> Controller.
> I hope to use it in an AC Motorcycle project.
> You cold send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see what you get.
> Good luck
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
> Behalf Of Keith Richtman
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:52 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Curtis 1244
> 
> 
> Anyone know if the Curtis 1244 SepEx motor controller is available
> for public purchase?
> 
> Keith
> 


__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would agree, as Bill's equation alone predicts 62.7 miles for my escort,
using a conservative 25 MPG.  I wish!

David's equation predicts 45.8 miles (using the same 25 MPG estimate), which
is just about right, if the prediction is for 100% DOD.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Dymaxion [mailto:david_dymaxion@;yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Theoretical range/performance


Perhaps combining the two methods would produce the best answer, with
little increase in complication. Bill's is good, but assumes the
weight of the car doesn't change too much. Percent battery weight is
good, but doesn't account for aerodynamic effects, or poor rolling
resistance. So I propose a "Neon-Dube" equation:

                  original weight       mpg
Miles of range = ------------------ x  ----- x lbs of batteries
                  converted weight      500

This way if the conversion is heavier than the original car, the
extra weight cuts down on the range. Some fine tuning of the "500"
constant might be warranted, too.

--- Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bill Dube wrote:
> >     When the discussion turns to range estimates, I always chime in
> with:
> >
> >
> >                               MPG x  (lb of batteries)
> >Maximum Range = ---------------------------------------
> >                                         500
> >
> >     Where Maximum Range is in miles, and MPG is the miles per 
> >gallon the car had before conversion. This assumes an ordinary
> ICE, 
> >typical vehicle, ordinary lead-acid batteries, and a well set up 
> >conversion with low RR tires and good alignment.
> 
> I just tried that on a few cars and often its not far off from what
> I 
> use to figure range. However, in some cases it came out with
> numbers 
> that I wouldn't believe (I suppose that indicates that some engines
> 
> are more/less efficient that average).
> 
> I like:
> 
> (lbs of batteries)
> -------------------------------- =Y
> lbs of vehicle converted)
> 
> If Y is 33% (0.33) let X be 0.05. For each percent that Y is
> greater 
> than 33% increase X by 0.001. For each percent that Y is less than 
> 33% decrease X by 0.001.
> 
> (lbs of batteries) * X = Maximum Range
> 
> This has the advantage of working for more customized vehicles
> where 
> the original MPG data is meaningless, as well as older vehicles
> that 
> lack MPG data. It also solves the question of which engine option
> to 
> use for figuring range.
> 
> My Buggy:
> 450
> ------- = Y = 31.7%
> 1420
> 
> 450 * 0.049 = 22 miles of range
> 
> In practice that is not true, its actually 20 miles. However, the 
> wheels and tyres where chosen for looks instead of rolling 
> resistance, its got the areo qualities of a drag chute, and with a 
> car that light the driver increases the weight quite a few more 
> percent than in a normal conversion. Seems to do pretty good.
> 
> One of the cases where our methods differ is to try 10 Optimas in a
> 
> stock Beetle. I'm coming up with about 17 miles, but the mileage 
> method is about 25.
> 
> Neon
> 


=====


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got a response from Evercell about the MB80 batteries.
About $333 each, available first quarter of 2003.

Wonder if they will actually be available at that time?

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi all
>
> This is an attempt to collate what is known or believed to be known,
> comparing Evercels with AGM batteries. Almost all of this will have
> appeared on the list in the last few months, but we seem to be in need of a
> FAQ page somewhere. The AGM information is from a Optima Yellowtop
> brochure, the Evercell is from their website and comments made on-list.
> Where I haven't seen a statement for a parameter, I have inserted ???,  if
> you know the value, please add it. If I have made any errors, please
> correct them. I think the EVtech page would be a good place to host such a
> FAQ, but it does need to be accurate. So here we go:
>
> Type:
> AGM Optima D34-950 sealed absorbed-glass-mat lead-acid
> Evercel MB80-12-8 sealed nickel-zinc alkaline

This battery does not exist yet in the states. You need to Ref the M100-12. As the
7 sell Evercell rated at 84 amphours. 84 times 12 gives 1008 Kwhr stored energy.
We have seen 900 Plus in Sheer's older units and 640 watt hours in the ones I am
testing. We hear the 8 cellers will be a bit more Amphours and 1.5 more volts,
same weight. When I get one I will post what I can. I have charged a stack of 13
of these new 7 cell unit and had them except 14 Kwhr. We have not done a full lab
test pull down on them. We don't know what they will produce once they have taken
a full charge. We ran out of time.


>
> Mass per 12V nominal module:
> AGM 43lbs/19.5kgs
> Evercel 36.4lb/16.5kg
>

The M100s are about 47 lbs check the date sheet.

>
> Capacity:
> AGM C/20 65Ah; C/2 52Ah; C0.2???(John Wayland post 25Ah for EV use)
> Evercel C/20 64Ah; C/2 ???Ah; C0.2???(John Wayland post 64Ah for EV use)
>

As I have said you can only get the 15, 40 and 100 amphour units as of this time.

>
> Cycle life per %DOD:
> AGM 10% ??? 60%??? 100% 350(BCI cycle life, anyone got the spec' on BCI
> life??)
>     Yts are 270 80% dod cycles. And about 500 at %50 DOD and it gets better as
> the DOD gets shallower.



> Evercel 10% 10,000, 60%??? 100%500 (stated as below 80% of capacity remaining)

500 cycles at %80 DOD.  Gets better with shallower DOD

>
>
> Fast recharge time to 90%SOC from 100% discharged
> AGM 35min @ 100A(C0.5)

Will take as many amps as can be taken out of them as long as you keep them under
80 Deg F, and under 15 volts.

>
> Evercel [2 hours @ 32A] (C2 stated)  the M100 have a stated max recharge rate of
> 58 amps. And well with thermal limits and voltage limts it looks like we can
> charge the in the bulk phase a LOT faster than the 58 amps.
>
> Operating temperature range:
> AGM preferred????? to ?????, stated ????? to 52C/125F
> prefered is 77 Deg F. max sane is 120 Def F Max Racing it 140 F. Sufferes from
> the lead acid chill of loss of capacity starting from 77 F and line %10 loss of
> capacty per 10 Deg F. The battery becomes just about useless at 20 below.

>

> Evercel stated -10C/14F to +50C/122F, non operating to -20C. preferred
> range 10C to 30C

The first thermal Derating is at 10 Deg F or -14C. Above this it's still at the
full amphour rating. This battery likes COLD!!!
This battery will fail if it goes over 135 F!!!

>
>
> Maximum output current:
> AGM MCA(32F,0C) 950A
>  at 80 and above 800 amps for 30 seconds with out links failing. 1200 amps for
> 15 seconds . This was found in Hydroplane racing. Some wheres I have a draw down
> data file. But we can do a healthy one if you wish.

> Evercel (Rich Rudman post) They will make 500+ amps for short burst.

525 amps with a Raptor 1200 set about to %40 power. I suspect I would have gotten
more if I set the 1200 up. I suspect that we also had about a %50 Sag down to 80
some volts. Also this was on cycle 3 out of the box, and after they took their
first real charge cycle. I hear they will get much stiffer with about 10 cycles
and solid recharges.


> (JohnWayland post) 300A safe limit.
>

Data sheet say 250 amps peak. Clearly they will make a LOT more if pushed. The
internal plates are plastic based!!! too much and they melt.
Also as of Sheer's urging they are now making the interconnects external. this
puts a LOT of the heat on the outside top of the battery.
This will help the cooling and  allow for fan cooled interconnects. I suspect that
removing the bars and replacing with 1/4 inch copper will stiffen the pack and
drop the heat output from just the conduction issues.

>
> Price
> AGM: about 120 NAPA, to 160 for marine shops and other less inclines to sell
> them cheap.
> Evercel(Phil Bardsley post 31 oct 02) $240USea (20+)
>
> Please feel free to add any additional parameters to this list that should
> be present. Once it contains all the available information, plese (someone)
> post this for all our benefit.
>
> Ta
>
> James Massey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Emissions?  What kind of emissions does a motor controller have?

Eric Penne wrote:

Here is my experience with the 1244.  If you plan on using it in a
commercial product it won't pass EMC emissions for anywhere in the
world that uses the newest standards.  The newer model with almost
exactly the same specs just fewer available voltages is the 1274.  The
1274 is emission tested and ready for most commercial products.  I
thought that I heard somewhere that the REVA was using the 1274 but I
could be wrong.  Can anybody confirm/deny the Curtis 1274 in the REVA?

The 1274 is only available to manufacturers AFAIK.  The 1244 you may be
able to get ahold of for personal use.

Eric


--- cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I just Sent an email to Curtis asking about the 1236 AC Induction
Controller.
I hope to use it in an AC Motorcycle project.
You cold send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see what you get.
Good luck

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
Behalf Of Keith Richtman
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Curtis 1244


Anyone know if the Curtis 1244 SepEx motor controller is available
for public purchase?

Keith


__________________________________________________
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U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Suzuki Swift is the same and the Chevy Sprint or the Geo Metro.  Smaller
than the Datsun 1200.  That's small.  Did you ever sea a Suzuki or is it a
Subaru 360.  It was a very small round car of the 60's.  I believe it had a
360cc two stroke engine.  Among the smallest cars I ever saw.  Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:37 PM
Subject: RE: Toyota Celicas, Starlets and Tercels


> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > The Starlet was smaller and lighter than any Tercel.
>
> I'm sure that's the case in your part of the world.  I confess
> I was talking about the Japanese domestic model Tercels that we
> get second-hand here, in New Zealand, on the other side of the
> world from where you are, and I thought they would be similar.
> Specifically, I was thinking of a hatchback model, and I was
> going to point you at a picture of it but I can't find one.
>
> > Rivaling the vererable Datsun 1200 and Chevy Sprint.
>
> Our Starlets are/were considerably smaller than the Datsun 1200.
> I know nothing about the Chevy Sprint.
>
> Has anyone got a Universal Translator for car models...?
>
> --
> Lesley Walker
> Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Sometimes I wake up at night screaming,
>  with visions of emails dancing in my head"
>      --- Norman Cates, NatOrg discussion list, July 2001
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Radio Frequency Emissions, that annoying whine you hear on your AM radio when the 
controller is activated.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:peterv@;peoplepc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Curtis 1244


Emissions?  What kind of emissions does a motor controller have?

Eric Penne wrote:

>Here is my experience with the 1244.  If you plan on using it in a
>commercial product it won't pass EMC emissions for anywhere in the
>world that uses the newest standards.  The newer model with almost
>exactly the same specs just fewer available voltages is the 1274.  The
>1274 is emission tested and ready for most commercial products.  I
>thought that I heard somewhere that the REVA was using the 1274 but I
>could be wrong.  Can anybody confirm/deny the Curtis 1274 in the REVA?
>
>The 1274 is only available to manufacturers AFAIK.  The 1244 you may be
>able to get ahold of for personal use.
>
>Eric
>
>
>--- cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>I just Sent an email to Curtis asking about the 1236 AC Induction
>>Controller.
>>I hope to use it in an AC Motorcycle project.
>>You cold send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see what you get.
>>Good luck
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>[mailto:owner-ev@;listproc.sjsu.edu]On
>>Behalf Of Keith Richtman
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:52 AM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: Curtis 1244
>>
>>
>>Anyone know if the Curtis 1244 SepEx motor controller is available
>>for public purchase?
>>
>>Keith
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
>http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 strings of 120.  15 batteries x 8v.  The car is running great.  Last few
nights it has charged completely in 7 hours.  One battery comming up slow
but comming up.  I bought 30 MkIIs and got some Mk 1 rev c's that work very
well. (I fried 10 mk IIs) They bounce around more than the MkIIs but do the
job.  I charge to 151.5v.  After charge it's about 132.  If they sit it goes
down to 128 to 130.  I haven't taken them down below 123v yet.  I am trying
to be easy on them for now.  That is 30 regs.  30 batteries and I think
about an 80 mile range.  The car weighs 3250 curb.  3500 with me in it.
3775 with the family.  With everyone in the car and a cello,violin & viola
we went from San Francisco State to Goat Hill Pizza for all you can eat
night.  (Monday 5-10pm 20 different types of pizza brought to you a pie at a
time and Salad for $8.95, 4.95 for kids about 30 different toppings)  We
were doing 75 in spots and pulled the hill over 101 at 60mph passing a bus.
When needed I haven't had to go below 45 mph on any freeway hill.  3rd gear
has good pull to 45 and 4th will take most other hills at 60.  You're fine
as long as you keep your speed up.  This is with a Curtis 1221C I think.
Need to check my parts list.  The controller isn't hot nor the batteries now
nor the connections.  Lawrence Rhodes... Motor is radiating some heat but I
can't reach it to touch except if I jack up the car a bit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.


> is that 3 strings of 120 ?  60 bats at 35 $  30 miles 123v that must have
> been with out load .  what are the ah on these ( liked your poem)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
>
>
> > Well I did spend 900 bucks on regs for 2200 bucks wortha well lets be
> honest
> > finicky batteries. I am using a B & W.  Guilty as charged.  With my
stick
> up
> > the butt approach I have balanced the batteries and with one still
comming
> > up slow but comming up none the less I drove the car 30 miles and the
120
> v
> > pack went down to 123v.  Not too bad.  I have to thank you for creating
> such
> > a good product that is also user modifiable.  I have piggy backed the
> boards
> > with resistors and made them work for my purposes.  Most of the MKIIs
> didn't
> > need modification and as the batteries have come closer together.
Things
> > have gotten better.  I'm thinking the next pack won't be bargain
> batteries.
> > They were no bargain in time and scorched regs.  I have sort of a unique
> > situation.  I am just wishing for some way of saving my back from this
> micro
> > management of my batteries which did work but was very time consuming.
If
> I
> > had better batteries I am sure I wouldn't have had to do the babysitting
> > thing.  All the regs do go the same way.  It is amazing how stable they
> are
> > once they are all set.   Lawrence Rhodes....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> >
> >
> > > You won't want this Reg. You want the reg and the charger to drift in
> the
> > right
> > > direction as the temp of each battery changes. This would be perfect.
> > > The Mk1s didn't drift, or drifted very little. The Mk2 drift the
"Right"
> > > direction for Lead acid. They can be tailored to drift on a known
slope.
> > > We can adjust the slope for Evercells hot or cold but not both. In the
> > last few
> > > nights of Evercell testing I am not certain that Temp comp is needed.
> > >     Your 8 volt Delphis are just about the worst Ev Battery I have
come
> > across,
> > > it's almost impossible to keep them in line. Trying to Keep a reg
within
> > 10 to
> > > 20 Milli volts is foolish. This is not needed, and a waste of your
time
> > and
> > > efforts. That a $20 Reg can be adjusted to this level is amazing.
> > >     The Mk3 that are Micro based will be set able to the regulation
> point
> > and
> > > the Drift temp comp offset table. All this fine adjustment will be a
> waste
> > of
> > > efforts unless we find a affordable temp sensor that is stable over
time
> > and
> > > totally accurate on it's temp voltage slope. I think you are asking a
> > $1.00
> > > sensor for Space grade stability. You can't afford a Reg that does
this
> > > reliably.
> > >     Crystal clock oscillators are by their nature rather stable. But
> that
> > is
> > > expected with solid state crystals. Still the good ones cost. 100ppm
is
> > cheap of
> > > you divide down a 10 Meg crystal to 10Khz. You can't do the same thing
> > with a
> > > 10K NTC thermistor.  The Micro will have a finite resolution limited
to
> > its ADC
> > > 8 bit channel, and the quality of the resistor divider and the sensor
> > > thermistor. You may have a nice digital read out of what looks very
> right,
> > but
> > > the real numbers will be different. It will depend on the aging and
> > calibration
> > > skills of the assembler producer. AKA Sheer or ME.
> > >     I already spend 15 to 20 minutes tuning and test every Reg Mk2 the
> > leaves my
> > > hands. Frankly that's way out of line for a $30 buck product. There is
> way
> > too
> > > much labor involved in each Reg for me to make a decent profit. It's a
> > > necessity,. and a matter of pride.  This is also why I have user
> > adjustable
> > > pots, if you don't
> > > like  how I tuned it up , then adjust to you liking.
> > >     The Mk3s will have the ability to self learn and self calibrate
them
> > selves,
> > > hopefully safe time in the test and tune quality control step of
> > manufacturing.
> > > I still have not seen one work as envisioned. But I hear they are
> sucking
> > data
> > > at the moment.
> > >     A spot on set reg is NOT what we need. Been there done that. Your
> > batteries
> > > will never be the same on any charge cycle. This all degrades into a
> Gray
> > area,
> > > what is needed and how to get it becomes a matter of what you want to
> > spend and
> > > what you need to spend to get the job done.
> > > What's the JOB ???  Is a $100 dollar reg cost effective???
> > > A $20 reg protecting a $200 Optima was the founding concept.
> > > I don't know if having a $50 Reg to protect a $40 battery is a cost
> > effective
> > > solution.
> > >
> > > It's starting to look like a $1500 dollar charger is better money
spent
> > than
> > > cheap batteries with $500 worth of Regs and a $500 charger. You can do
> > more
> > > safely with a programmable charger than a programmable dissipater of
> OVER
> > charge
> > > energy.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > >
> > > > I wish that were so.  I am using both and they seem to have simular
> > > > tendancies.  Now I'm not talking alot but it seems that the .02 to
.03
> > > > hundredths of a volt will allow a weak battery to stay down.  The
temp
> > here
> > > > in San Francisco has been raising each night for the last few nights
> and
> > I
> > > > had one reg go bad and a few other set a little high and low and
> behold
> > this
> > > > one weak battery takes all night(7 hours of charging) to come up to
> > voltage.
> > > > This only after adjusting all 30 mixed regs mk 1c mk1d and mk IIs
down
> > from
> > > > 10.12  or 10.13 to 10.10.  If it is cold I have to go the other way.
> I
> > have
> > > > been watching this pack for a few weeks now and after replacing a
> couple
> > of
> > > > batteries I have a very nice battery experience going.  Hopefully
> > tonight
> > > > with the new reg in and all the regs adjusted again.  I will solve
the
> > > > problem with this one last battery  that is a little slow to come
up.
> I
> > > > guess what I am saying is will there ever be a reg that you can
state
> > the
> > > > voltage limit and it will be the same every time at every temp.  and
> > won't
> > > > cost 50 bucks each.  They can do it in music with a quartz
controlled
> > > > metronome.  What would it take or are the mk IIIs on this line?
> > Lawrence
> > > > Rhodes....
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:32 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> > > >
> > > > > You must have Mk 1 regs... The Mk 2 regs go the correct direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe Smalley
> > > > > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > > > > Fiesta 48 volts
> > > > > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:34 AM
> > > > > Subject: Rudman Regs a Poem.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well they do there job but the climate changes. Them milder
nights
> > make
> > > > > them
> > > > > > crazy.  Just a couple of hundredths up they go and a straggler
> goes
> > low.
> > > > > > Readjust all thirty and Mr. Ohms law comes to duty.  With no
where
> > to go
> > > > > > this little pup comes up.  Like fireflys in the night.  Such a
> > delight.
> > > > > > Flashing like a school of fish or birds in flight.  It's so
right.
> > The
> > > > > > timer clicks and they have their night.  Dialing in is nice but
> what
> > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > digital era.  It's enough to make a fellow sweara. The B & W
goes
> > one
> > > > way
> > > > > > Rudman the other. In the cold they go down and the heat they go
> up.
> > > > > That's
> > > > > > not the way to train a pup.  Temperature sensitive and feed back
> > hay.
> > > > > > That's the only way,  corrected for temperature OK......Will the
> > Mark
> > > > III
> > > > > > see this day????  A poem by Lawrence Rhodes....Apologies to
every
> > poet
> > > > > ever
> > > > > > born and to anyone else offended....
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking that two strings buffer amp usage and double amp availability
while when egg footing the two packs give off very small amounts of amps as
apposed to one string of larger amp hour batteries with higher peaks.
Keeping this peak amp usage down seems to keep everything cool and easy on
everything.  Am I thinking right?  Lawrence Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the general idea I had when I put in a buddy pair of 10 Optima YT's.
 2 YT's are connected in parallel, and then ten sets of these connected
in series, for 120v DC.

The idea is that the individual batteries in the pair will each take one
half of the amps load you are putting on it.  For lead-acid, more amps out
equals more loss to Peukert, which means lower overall amp-hours capacity.
 This assumes the batteries in each pair are exactly equal, which of course
is not the real world.

In my case, the advantages listed below have mostly come about.  I can get
50 or 60 amp-hrs out of my set of batteries, to get to 80-90% DOD. If I
had only one set of YT's, I would guess 30-35 amp-hrs, based on similar
data from Sparrow owners.  So, I don't get twice the range, but it definately
helps.  When I replace my motor, I'm going to be very interested to see
what happens to my range, and my amp-hrs used per mile--I'm expecting it
to go down, as I will lose less energy to heat, but we'll have to see exactly
how it goes.

The main thing with doing this, is to try to make the batteries in pairs
as equal as possible.  Al Godfrey in CA did this by putting all his YT's
in parallel, and charging at something like 13.5v at 1 amp for a week (with
all the batteries tilted on one side), and then again, for another week
with the batteries tilted on the other.  I didn't do this, but I think I
would if I were to do it over.

If you are interested in my data, I can send you a spreadsheet.  I've got
detailed info for every cycle (just over 100 now).

Mark

>-- Original Message --
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Two strings better than one.
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:33:03 -0800
>
>
>I was thinking that two strings buffer amp usage and double amp availability
>while when egg footing the two packs give off very small amounts of amps
>as
>apposed to one string of larger amp hour batteries with higher peaks.
>Keeping this peak amp usage down seems to keep everything cool and easy
on
>everything.  Am I thinking right?  Lawrence Rhodes...
>

Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you like the thought of never stopping at another gas station, you need
to attend the Chico chapter of the Electric Auto Association or "EAA".



Learn more about:



     Electric automobiles

     How to convert a car to electric

     Hybrid automobiles

     Fuel cell powered automobiles

     Compressed natural gas automobiles

.     ON DISPLAY the Toyota RAV4 EV the 1st one north of Sacramento.



A new chapter of the EAA is forming in Chico, with the next meeting on
Saturday, November 16th from 10am to 12 noon. The meeting is FREE, and all
are welcome.



Join us at the Videomaker/York Publishing Office, located at:

1350 East 9th St. (two blocks west of Hwy 99E)



>From 99E take the Hwy 32/8th St exit. West on 8th St, go to Bartlett, turn
left (south) the 1st big/new building on left.



GPS:  N39.73536    W121.82166

Chico, CA



We need you at the meeting to help start a new EAA chapter in Chico. If you
are not now affiliated with a local chapter, we would welcome you to
transfer to our chapter.



EV's of all types  (i.e.:  autos, scooters, skateboards) and Hybrids are
welcome.



For more information call:

Chuck Alldrin

530-899-1835


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Not if the larger batteries are twice the size of the smaller batteries. If you could actually find batteries with twice the lead, they would weigh slightly less than twice as much (less wasted case, interconnectes, terminals, etc.)

With twice the lead, your lead to current ratio is the same, internal resistance is abouyt 1/2 (or about the same as paralleled smaller batts) so heat generated is about the same. Of course a double string of smaller batteries would have more surface area so it could disapate the heat better, but once you pack them up nice an tight in a battery box that small advantage is pretty much gone.

A single larger battery, twice the size of the smaller ones, would have at least twice the capacity so the current through it will be the same relative current.

I.e. two strings of 150 AH batteries vs. one string of 300 AH batteries. 150 amps from the double string is 75 amps per battery or 1/2 the batteries capacity. 150 amps through the single 300 AH battery is also 1/2 the AH capacity. Same same.

Generally speaking, larger batteries tend to be more robust, but this is highly variqable so really depends on the particular batteries. Of course if you are going with twice the size of GC batteries, then you might be able to find true traction batteries. These are reputed to live almost as long as NiCads.

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

I was thinking that two strings buffer amp usage and double amp availability
while when egg footing the two packs give off very small amounts of amps as
apposed to one string of larger amp hour batteries with higher peaks.
Keeping this peak amp usage down seems to keep everything cool and easy on
everything.  Am I thinking right?  Lawrence Rhodes...



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe,

This has been my concept since the Evercell/AGM thread started.

NON buck enhanced PFC-20 or 50s will run off DC if you change the input
breaker to a DC rated breaker. There are no other required changes.

If you have a buck enhanced model, the input current sensor will also need
to be changed from an AC type to a DC type. Estimated cost is $200. Consult
Rich for further information when he figures out the true cost and
availability of the necessary parts.
Well, I haven't got a PFCxx charger yet, but this is good info
to know. Pardon my ignorance, but what's the difference between
the buck-enhanced and non buck-enhanced models?
( apart from the enhanced bucks spent to buy it! ;-)

There is no requirement for the packs to be the same voltage. You size the
AGM pack to work with your controller and motor. You fill up the rest of the
space with Evercells. The charger takes care of the voltage difference.
Aha! This is an important observation, thanks Joe.
I've just remembered that those big switchmode PSUs I've got will
work from higher voltage DC ( like 200 volts ), now I know I've got
stuff here already I can play with
( apart from Evercells.... )

Seriously though, being able to run differing pack voltages might
be a really good point - we're not limited so much by the present lack
of available sizes of Evercells. We could choose whatever capacity
provides the amount of energy storage needed, and just string them all
in series ( might mean a lot of regs though! )
Plus, when the AGMs wear out, they won't cost as much to replace.
It also means there might be more flexibility when the time comes to replace
the Evercell pack, depending upon prices, availability, etc one might
buy a different number of replacements, with a different capacity to
compensate

If you build the battery pack with this architecture, the charger will need
to be connected from Line to Evercells during charging and have the AGMs out
of the loop. When they get full, the charger will connect from line to AGMs
until they are full. This is necessary because of the difference in the
finishing voltages.
I was thinking a bit more about this on the drive home tonight:

The AGMs would see quite a few discharge-recharge cycles in
a day's use of the vehicle, but there's no need to recharge them to 100%
full every time ( not enough time available to do this anyway )
90% full would be good enough, this could be done using the full current
of the PFCxx charger. They could be properly topped-off when the car's
plugged in, after the Evercells are full.

Sizing the AGMs correctly is very important though - this whole
idea is just like using supercaps to buffer a battery/fuel cell,
once you've drained your high-power buffer, you can't accelerate
very fast! ( probably most important in stop-start driving between
junctions, traffic lights, etc )

Yes the charger can be controlled externally. The remote control port has a
0 to 5 volt line that corresponds to 0 to 100% of rated current. The ground
reference of this port is tied to pack negative so some sort of isolation
would be a good idea. A remote controlled  electronic pot is probably the
best was to do it.
Yep, my immediate though was a digital pot chip with opto-isolators
to isolate the chip's digital interface from whatever controlled it.
( this works a treat with my PSU's )
Or maybe sending PWM though a logic-to-logic optoisolator, then
smoothing it to get an analogue control signal.

You can also control the charge voltage through the same port. A relay to
switch between two set pots is the easiest concept for doing it.

Cool! I think one of these chargers will definately be on my wish-list
some time in the future...

Regards

Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you like the thought of never stopping at another gas station, you need
to attend the Chico chapter of the Electric Auto Association or "EAA".



Learn more about:



      Electric automobiles

     How to convert a car to electric

     Hybrid automobiles

     Fuel cell powered automobiles

      Compressed natural gas automobiles

.     ON DISPLAY the Toyota RAV4 EV the 1st one north of Sacramento.



A new chapter of the EAA is forming in Chico, with the next meeting on
Saturday, November 16th from 10am to 12 noon. The meeting is FREE, and all
are welcome.



Join us at the Videomaker/York Publishing Office, located at:

1350 East 9th St. (two blocks west of Hwy 99E)



>From 99E take the Hwy 32/8th St exit. West on 8th St, go to Bartlett, turn
left (south) the 1st big/new building on left.



GPS:  N39.73536    W121.82166

Chico, CA



We need you at the meeting to help start a new EAA chapter in Chico. If you
are not now affiliated with a local chapter, we would welcome you to
transfer to our chapter.



EV's of all types  (i.e.:  autos, scooters, skateboards) and Hybrids are
welcome.



For more information call:

Chuck Alldrin

530-899-1835


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,

Comments inserted


From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Advanced Batteries - Li-Ion Musings
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:59:59 -0800

Dave Davidson wrote:
>
> Victor,
>
> Great that you may start carrying them. Will you be getting the Thunder-sky
> cells/batteries or from a different supplier?

Direct from Thunder-sky. I wouldn't run ahead of train, it's long way
to establish this. they are slow on responses

> How much do you know about the BMS built into the 36 and 42 volt monoblocks?

Nothing until I get specs.

> My fear is that they are designed for the new cars coming out with the
> higher voltage system and are not made to be strung in series.

They are, no car uses just one battery. But I don't know details yet.
Some of the new ICEs are going to a 36/42 volt system because the 12 volt system can't handle all the accessories. These would use just one battery, plus maybe a 12 volt battery. That's the market I thought they would be going for.



>... as that would tremendously simplify things.
>
> My desire is to build a car with the most range I can get.

Nothing will beat Li chemistry then (kWh/weight).

Either LiIon or LiP.

> I figure if I can fit in as many 200AH cells as your system can handle, I
> should have phenominal range.

It's not a limitation of my system - it's suspension/space
in your car and your wallet. They make 500Ah modules which will give
you 500 miles range - conservative estimate.

The problem will be charging time and cost.
And weight. A system of the 200 Ah cells would only weigh about 1000 pounds (thinking of a high voltage AC system here). However, the 500Ah monoblocks sound ideal for a low voltage DC system. Didn't see them on the website, though.


> I'm probably 2 to 3 years away from building my dream car, but am learning
> as much as I can so I can do a first-class job. I can probably match the
> RAV4 range with the NiZn, but would like to do better if I can.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Dave Davidson
> Laurel, Maryland
> 1993 Dodge TEVan

I see NiZn as the step up from PbA, but only as a back up plan if LiIon
are not realistically available.
At least to hobbyists. NiMH are excellent, especially the Matsushita (sp?) batteries in the Toyota RAV4 EV. Just not available outside the OEM market.

The chemistries are (best to worst):

1 - LiIon/LiP
2 - NiMH/NiNaCl
3 - NiCD
4 - NiZn
5 - PbA

Note, 2 to 4 are all Nickel based. (3 and 4 may swap places in future).

If going 5 notches up is doable, I see no reason invest in one notch
step up. But this is just my personal take on the issue.

Victor
One more note on the NiCd. All that I am aware of are flooded batteries. Are any sealed units being made? I much prefer sealed batteries for my next EV.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me understand more.

Dave

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Firing up my e-meter that I bought used, and have some questions.  I hear 
that there is an EV version and a non-EV version; the ev version has some 
imput filtering.  How can I tell if I have the EV version?  Being an 
engineer, the first thing I did was open it up, and there were quite a few 
un-populated surface mount components.

Also, I seem to remember somewhere that there is a schematic floating 
around for the prescaler.  I imagine all it is is some resistors, maybe 
some small filter caps, and a zener or something to clamp the input to 
below 50 V.  Anyone know more about the prescaler?  Is it just a divide by 
10 to convert 0->500 to 0->50V?

Anyone know what the optional temp. sensor is?  Just a 10K thermistor?

Thanks for your time,

- Steven Ciciora
--- End Message ---

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