EV Digest 2431

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Dial Indicators (was Motor Adaptors)
        by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: frying AC connections
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Greetings !
        by "Robert Salem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Greetings !
        by "Robert Salem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: EVs on Ebay
        by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) ev on Mr. Rogers
        by josh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: frying AC connections
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) DC-DC theory question
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EVs on Ebay
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10) Re: Zebras - I have a bite, maybe...
        by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Charging at low current overnight
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: EVs on Ebay
        by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Zebras - info and some diary (longish)
        by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Fixed Vacuum Pump was (vacuum dummy light)
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 15) Re: Batteries for go-kart
        by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Raptor600 connection info
        by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Fixed Vacuum Pump was (vacuum dummy light)
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Zebras
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Radio interview
        by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Charging old batteries (was Equalizing... How many amps do
  I need?)
        by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) re:  Odd digest format
        by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) OT: quote of the day
        by Michael Haseltine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: OT: quote of the day
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Optimal battery pack?
        by "Johanna and Stan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: DC-DC theory question
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Request for VW Rabbitt adapter plate dimensions
        by "Roy Reker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) seeking Brusa NLG412 power stage, for my Solectria Force
        by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: Charging old batteries (was Equalizing... How many amps do
          I need?)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) Battery pack design for "ultra-light" EV
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen import dial indicators for less than $10.  At the Dayton 
Hamfest, I bought a new dial indicator and magnetic base for $25.  The 
kind I believe you are thinking of mounts in the chuck of your mini-mill, 
you rotate it, and know you are centered inthe hole when the indicator 
dosn't move.

What I've done is buy a USB Intel QXB3 microscope on e-bay, mount it where 
my spindle goes on my computerized x-y table, draw some cross hairs on the 
computer monitor, and move the table around to find the 'edges' of holes, 
etc.  By taking at least 3 data points (x-y coord) of a round hole, and a 
little trig, you can determine the position of the center hole.  Sort of 
like an optical comparitor.

The reason I'm doing this is the scrap aluminum plate I bought surplus 
($0.80/lb) has some holes in it.  I need to measure the locations of the 
existing holes so I can enter them in the cad program.  This way I can 
make sure I design my adaptor around the existing holes.

- Steven Ciciora

Seth wrote:
Subject: Re: Motor adapters

Often times estate/garage sales or even pawn shops will dial indicator
equipment reasonably priced. Ot the local buy/sell swap magazine. I
would think you shoould be able to get something for under US$50, maybe
half that.

Seth

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/15/02 8:41:57 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << Of course if you have one of those rotating dial gauges used for 
centering
>  holes, then alignment for copying is pretty easy.  Anybody know where I 
can
>  get one of these that doesn't cost as much as my mini mill?
>   >>
 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> using 125v 30 amp connectors with #10 wire... It always runs hot...
> the B & W puts out 20 amps at first but quickly goes down to 15 amps.

AC current in is not the same as DC current out. With a K&W charger
phase-controlled charger, the AC input current is always higher than the
DC output current. 20 amps out could easily be 40 amps in. That is
probably what is burning up your connectors.

You can't just measure AC input current with an inexpensive meter,
either. Most such meters assume a sinewave. Phase controlled chargers
draw their current as narrow, high-current spikes. To accurately measure
such currents, you need a "true RMS" type meter. They cost more, but
tell you the true current regardless of the waveform.

If you don't mind experimenting a bit, here is a tricky way to measure
true RMS current with simple equipment. Let's say you want to know when
you are at 20 amps RMS.

1. Get two small 2-cell flashlights. Take one apart to use the light
   bulb; it is likely a #49 (2v), #PR4 (2.33v), or #PR2 (2.38v).

2. Install only one cell in the flashlight; use a piece of wire to
   short out the place for the other battery. The flashlight still
   works on only 1.5v; it is just very dim.

3. Get a power resistor with a voltage drop to match the voltage of
   your 1-cell flashlight at your desired current. Its resistance is
   R = V/I = 1.5v / 20a = 0.075 ohms. Its power rating is P = V x I
   = 1.5v x 20a = 30 watts.

4. Connect the second flashlight's light bulb across the resistor.
   Wire the resistor in series with the AC input to your charger (or
   whatever RMS current is to be measured). I would also include a
   toggle switch to short out the resistor when you don't need to
   make a measurement so the resistor doesn't get hot and waste power.

To use it, turn on the flashlight powered by one cell, and open the
switch so the light bulb powered by the resistor's voltage drop are both
lit. When the lamps are the same brightness, the power in both of them
is identical. With the above resistor value, same brightness means 20
amps RMS current is flowing.

This works at any lamp voltage. For example, you could put a
potentiometer in series with the flashlight's 2 cells to adjust its
brightness until it matches the light bulb on the resistor's brightness.
Then measure the voltage on the flashlight's light bulb. Whatever
voltage is on the flashlight's bulb is the true RMS voltage on the AC
light bulb, too. From this voltage and the resistor's value, you can
calculate the true RMS current.

This trick works because RMS current measures the heating effect on
things (resistors, light bulbs, connectors, wire, etc.). A light bulb
happens to be very easy to see how hot it is (human eyes are extremely
sensitive to brightness differences).
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,

My name is (stardard penpal greeting) Robert Salem.

I live in columbus and have a 81 vw pickup truck that i race. It
has 240 volts, 11" Kostov, DCP1200 T-Rex..
Best time(15.854 sec 1/4 mile) this summer at "Power of DC" Race
in Maryland. I have also raced in Xenia at the vw race in Summer.
What are you building and were are you ??

Maybe we can get together some time.

Bob





----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ciciora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: Dial Indicators (was Motor Adaptors)


> I've seen import dial indicators for less than $10.  At the
Dayton
> Hamfest, I bought a new dial indicator and magnetic base for
$25.  The
> kind I believe you are thinking of mounts in the chuck of your
mini-mill,
> you rotate it, and know you are centered inthe hole when the
indicator
> dosn't move.
>
> What I've done is buy a USB Intel QXB3 microscope on e-bay,
mount it where
> my spindle goes on my computerized x-y table, draw some cross
hairs on the
> computer monitor, and move the table around to find the 'edges'
of holes,
> etc.  By taking at least 3 data points (x-y coord) of a round
hole, and a
> little trig, you can determine the position of the center hole.
Sort of
> like an optical comparitor.
>
> The reason I'm doing this is the scrap aluminum plate I bought
surplus
> ($0.80/lb) has some holes in it.  I need to measure the
locations of the
> existing holes so I can enter them in the cad program.  This
way I can
> make sure I design my adaptor around the existing holes.
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
> Seth wrote:
> Subject: Re: Motor adapters
>
> Often times estate/garage sales or even pawn shops will dial
indicator
> equipment reasonably priced. Ot the local buy/sell swap
magazine. I
> would think you shoould be able to get something for under
US$50, maybe
> half that.
>
> Seth
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 11/15/02 8:41:57 AM US Mountain Standard
Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > << Of course if you have one of those rotating dial gauges
used for
> centering
> >  holes, then alignment for copying is pretty easy.  Anybody
know where I
> can
> >  get one of these that doesn't cost as much as my mini mill?
> >   >>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry !  Was for Steve.

List got me again.

Bob



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Salem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 3:01 PM
Subject: Greetings !


> Hi,
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:14:17PM -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
> I looked at electric vehicles on Ebay for the first time in a while and 
> was impressed by how many there were - scooters, NEVs, etc and a couple 
> of real cars including a nice Solectria right in my back yard. Don't 
> know what to make of the quantity, but the bids so far tell me that 
> interest in EVs is alive and well.

I don't suppose anyone knows anything about the Fiat X-1/9 Item # 1872668692?
I always liked the looks of the X1/9, though heard it had reliability
problems.  Hopefully mostly with the engine...

-- 
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice bit on Mr. Rogers today with him driving an EV.  Didn't recognize
the brand, looked like sort of an originally-manufactured truck, very
boxy, but not shoddy looking at first glance. He seemed to enjoy
himself.  The apparent owners of the company (I came in halfway
through) were with him.

jl
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is what happens when you don't have PFC. I didn't have PFC about 10
years ago and set the lawn on fire at work one time, set my garage ceiling
on fire and melted connectors, wall plugs etc. Now I have PFC (almost don't
know how to act) and everything runs cool and can charge 37% faster.
(Average non-PFC power factor is .63 for an electronic load, diode
bridge-cap, chargers, boob-tubes, PC's etc.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:25 PM
Subject: frying AC connections


> I have been using 125v 30 amp connectors with #10 wire for years.  It
always
> runs hot.  I just turned a white plastic insulator brown and the pin was
> almost welded together.  I noticed that the B & W puts out 20 amps at
first
> but quickly goes down to 15 amps.  Last night I watched and turned it up 3
> times untill it stayed around 20 amps.  When I turn it on to night I am
sure
> it will register more than 20.  Is this what fried it.  I am thinking of
> using a 125 50 with #8 wire.  Is this over kill with a B&W.  I have always
> had trouble with the B&W running hot at 20amp draw.  I'm tired of frying
> connections.  I have to stay at 125v with the B & W.  Lawrence Rhodes...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Experts,

What will happen if an output of isolated DC-DC fed from
a battery string is connected to one of the batteries in the
string? I realize if DC-DC output current is higher than
total string current feeding DC-DC, the mid battery gets
charged while others discharged.

I'm not debating point of doing this, I wonder if some
instability or wrong feed back or anything wrong with 
magnetics of DC-DC's transformer is expected.

          |
          |-----------------------
          -                      |
         ---12V                  |
          |          ---------   |
          |----------|       |---- 
          |       12V|out  in|36V
          -    ------|       |----
         ---12V|     |       |   |
          |    |     ---------   |
          +-----      DC-DC      |
          |                      |
          -                      |
         ---12V                  |
          |                      |
          |-----------------------
          |

Now, if all OK, what if output of isolated DC-DC connected to it's
input and to the battery? Output voltage is the same as input
(adjustable). I know, it will waste energy trying to "recharge" the 
whole pack it's fed from, but is it "stable" arrangement? No 
oscillations or something weird in DC-DC (assuming flyback topology)
when I draw variable current from this pack (external load)?

          |
          |------+----------------
          -      |               |
         ---12V  |               |
          |      |   ---------   |
          |      +---|       |---- 
          |       36V|out  in|36V
          -      +---|       |----
         ---12V  |   |       |   |
          |      |   ---------   |
          |      |    DC-DC      |
          |      |               |
          -      |               |
         ---12V  |               |
          |      |               |
          |------+----------------
          |


Thanks for opinions,
Replying off-line may be more appropriate,

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 20/11/02 20:36:26 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> I always liked the looks of the X1/9, though heard it had reliability
> problems.  Hopefully mostly with the engine...

I've owned a number of cheap X1/9s over the years, usually the last thing you 
need to worry about is the engine (except on cars which haven't been driven 
hard enough, I used to run to 8000rpm). Rust is a problem, but it's usually 
cosmetic more than structural. The five speed gearboxes have Porsche synchros 
on third and up which wear out. Reverse gear can strip (cheap part but time 
consuming). Wheel bearings can develop pitting if the vehicle has stood a 
lot, which also causes brake problems. It's a very good chassis, with twice 
the luggage capacity of the MR2 and was built to meet the proposed Ralph 
Nader crash regs. Fiat rarely change things that work, so there are a lot of 
later parts that can be used for upgrades.

Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ralph

 --- Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> >Lock Hughes writes:
> > In Dr.Dustmann's questionaire 6)Batts compartment size... well, the
> > shuttle has a lot of available space with temperate conditions for
> > his batts, so I don't know what else I can tell him there.
> 
> Tell him the space available?

    Nope. But again, there's plenty of room, albeit long/skinny.  I'll
give him some measurements. 
 
> > And I left out the point about this being a ferryboat and not on
> > wheels but afloat.
> 
> Why?  He might have an interest in seeing his batteries used on a
> ferry boat.

    The leaving out the boat bit was just for the EV list Ralph.  Even
though the experience here is mostly wheels and not water,  I believe
any comments from high and dry EVers would still be very important! 
Thinking like "shuttle buses"... 
 
> Does your ferry carry any ballast?  If so, you have the option of
> removing ballast to offset any extra weight gained during the
> conversion.

    Good thought, but no ballast.  This isn't a conversion but a new
design from the keels up.  The weight of something like Zebras with
electrics would be less than the weight of diseasals and large fuel
tanks etc.  Nope, the boat is intended to be light weight, everywhere.
The 40,000lbs figure I mentioned earlier would be high, so I am erring
on the side of caution I hope.

    Lock
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brendan Kirby wrote:

> Are you saying that the battery self discharge rate is greater if
> low charging current is present as opposed to no current? The
> batteries don't self discharge to 0 in 250 hours so the self
> discharge current must be well below 1 amp.

Yes; the self-discharge current is significantly higher as voltage
increases. A full battery on charge is at a higher voltage, so it is
self-discharging much faster than the same battery when it is not on
charge. Here are some typical self-discharge rates for a sealed
lead-acid battery. Floodeds are similar, but several times higher.

Temperature        0 deg.C     25 deg.C     40 deg.C
                   32 deg.F    77 deg.F     104 deg.F
-----------        -------     --------     --------
13.5v (on charge)  0.25%/day   1%/day       4%/day
13v (100% SOC)     0.1%/day    0.5%/day     2%/day
12.5v (50% SOC)    0.03%/day   0.12%/day    0.5%/day
12v (0% SOC)       0.01%/day   0.03%/day    0.1%/day

As long as you are well below the gassing threshold (under 2.3v/cell),
self-discharge current is roughly equal to the current you have to put
into the battery for it to maintain the same voltage indefinitely
(neither charging nor discharging). The percents/day are the amount of
charge lost per day to self-discharge. So, for example, at 13.5v and 25
deg.C, the battery is losing 1% of its charge per day, and it would take
a 1 amp charger just to maintain 13.5v on a 100 amphour battery. No
charging would take place unless the current was higher.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had been looking at the X-1/9 as well, but more for the components, since
I've been wanting to do a 914 conversion for some time now.  I had been
considering bidding, and then donating the chassis to a local Fiat club,
since the body needs new paint, there appears to be some surface rust near
the p/s rear wheel, and I don't especially like the design or interior
anyway. In short, the car itself isn't too great, but the components have
potential (either in the same car after restoration, or in a better
vehicle). In either the X-1/9 or the 914, the front trunk would probably get
filled with Batteries. The rear trunk on the X-1/9 is quite small - 914's
are somehow more generous with the storage space, but either car would still
really only be good as a "people mover".
     If you end up buying the X-1/9 though, you should be willing to do some
restoration on the car first. You don't want to be seen driving around in an
"electric dookie"! As it is now, it seems to be just another car where the
maker didn't care enough about anything beyond making it functional, and
pretty much neglected the condition of the donor car's body. There are
already enough converted "low-budget" EV cars like that on the road.
     The Solectria, on the other hand seems to be a good deal (even though
it only has Lead Acid Batts). I  should also apologize at this point... I'm
the guy who tipped the seller off about the Solectria site...but it's for a
good cause if he really does intend to donate the proceeds to the MIT
Solar/Electric group as he says! After he added the comment about the
Solectria site, the bid price went up by $3K! Still, I'd bid on that one if
I had the $$$ and was on the right side of the country. Not exactly cutting
edge styling, but probably the best technology outside of the unattainable
EV1...

As an aside, I've become of the opinion that "the batteries make the EV."
Additional features aside (like the Solectria's Regenerative braking, which
provides definite advantages, but is really expensive and difficult for the
"do-it-yourselfer"), the batteries seem to have the greatest effect on the
range and weight (influencing range again, plus the "effective power" -
lighter=better 0-60 time).
    Am I wrong here? It just seems that the energy density (or lack thereof)
is the part of the puzzle that has been the limiting factor all along. I
wish Batteries were the focus of our attention year-round instead of just
during the colder months!  If we (collectively) gave more budget to
integrating advanced battery technologies into our conversions, Battery
companies might perhaps note an increase in demand and push their R&D harder
for more advancements. My hat's off to all the "early adopters" in this
group!

    Sorry about the rant. Just an overzealous beginner, I suppose. But it
does have a point in this post:
    Since the X-1/9 has dead batteries (and the Solectria's would need
replacement), either would have the potential to be fairly nice - if you
care to spend what it takes for Yellow-Tops (about the only Lead-Acid Batts
I would even consider at this point - since the energy density is not too
bad and since they won't leak and corrode the car!), NiCad, NiMH, or Lithium
Ion Batts, a conversion could be a decent investment, and the Solectria
could always be retrofit for great results as well.


-Doug Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Batie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: EVs on Ebay


> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:14:17PM -0500, Jim Coate wrote:
> > I looked at electric vehicles on Ebay for the first time in a while and
> > was impressed by how many there were - scooters, NEVs, etc and a couple
> > of real cars including a nice Solectria right in my back yard. Don't
> > know what to make of the quantity, but the bids so far tell me that
> > interest in EVs is alive and well.
>
> I don't suppose anyone knows anything about the Fiat X-1/9 Item #
1872668692?
> I always liked the looks of the X1/9, though heard it had reliability
> problems.  Hopefully mostly with the engine...
>
> --
> Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
> PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
> 27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!
>
>     We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Victor

 --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
Lock and all, comments inserted
 
> > Dr.Dustmann of MES-DEA SA was kind enough to reply to my email
> > requesting price/availability and details on their Zebras.  I am
> > invited to fill out a questionaire, and I would appreciate any
> > assistance (I'd promise to keep any interested EVers appraised if I
> > ever do get to work with these sodium nickel chloride units!).
> 
> First, some answers:
> > Here's the questionnaire:
> > 1) Rated Energy         [ kWh ] 17.8kWh
> > 2) Peak Power   [ kW ]   32kW
> > 3) Continuos Power [ kW ]  ...
> > 4) Voltage Range        [V]  279V and 557V versions
> > 5) Capacity             [ Ah ]   64 or 32 depending on the voltage
> > 6) Dimensions Battery Compartment Lgth [ mm ] 755mm
> >                                   Width   [ mm ] 533mm
> >                                   Height  [ mm ] 300mm
> > You miss the weight question: 189kg for Z5C.

    Thank you Victor!  Your dimensions look like trays/brackets?  I
would just mention to him that there's a lot of space in the hulls
where these would be mounted, but will use your dimensions as minimums
thanks. 

    Without understanding the optimum charging regime for these units,
I've been thinking it'd be easier to spec the storage assuming only one
six hour recharge at night, rather than taking advantage of any 30
minute stops between trips.   This just to save the operators the
time/trouble/ necessity of plugging and unplugging every hour (for 50
years.)  Your figures assume recharging 1/2 of each hour all day plus
6hrs overnight?  Still trying to figure out what constitutes a battery
cycle!

> Some specs (columns are not lined up correctly):
> http://www.betard.co.uk/z5c_spec.htm
> Some vehicles:
> http://www.betard.co.uk/vehicles.htm

    Thanks for the links. I missed those on the betard site.

> Now, some info from technical staff:
> The charger is separate. The BMI CAN communication controls the
> charger.  It is probably better to use a MES-DEA charger that is set
> up with the parameters for a particular Zebra battery. I think they
> cost around 1000 for a 3kW charger.

     `Kay.  Yup, I would expect MES-DEA to provide the system including
the charger!

> Now, if you care, some diary of my correspondence with Mr. Dustmann,
> proving that MES-DEA is not very interested in selling you Zebra. 
> Since last year as far as I know situation did not change.
> [SNIP Victors correspondence]
> .........
> SO, still want it? If you find the way, please let me know.

      I'll pursue it Victor.  I'm interested in the low maintenance and
supposed high "anti-abuse" factors - for commercial-grade service.  I
would plan to splash the boat in the Spring, 2004, so I am not in a
rush.  I would ask the Good Doctor also if I could "piggyback" on any
production runs of units that may be suitable for my purposes. 
Finally, the boat is intended as a prototype/promo vehicle (pun
intended), and it's a larger "bus-type" vehicle, all of which I think
will stroke the Doc.

    Plus, over the expected useful life of the vehicle (50 years), I
have no reason to think it would be "zebra powered" for all that time. 
This zebra just seems like a "package" that'd be good enough as a
jumping off point today (well, 2004!). 

    Thanks again for your comeback Victor. Much appreciated.

     Lock


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Thank you everyone for your suggestions but I haven't had any time to go look for a sensor switch but I did take off my vacuum pump and got it working. I put it in a innertube under my blazer much like Victor has on his Honda. It was a largest ATV innertube I could buy at a local motorcycle shop.
I disconnected one side of the inner tube and about a gallon of water just poured out. The pump would still work if you put it in test mode by reversing the wires but I think that disables the vacuum switch so it wouldn't shut off. The vacuum pump probably works fine in a wet location but submerged in water for a while probably got to it. I had to take apart the vacuum pump and blow out all the water using a large stand dryer my wifes uses for her work.
I got it back together and moved to a new dry location and it's back to working. I'm still going to at least get a gauge and I now always do a brake test to make sure I have vacuum before I move. Kind of like that little EV I sit in does before leaving grand central station on it's way to Connecticut every day.
Phew.. 300$ or so not thrown away by stupidity... I'm getting eerily close to it becoming too expensive of a hobby..
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
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Hi David,

> And please excuse me for asking, but why order cheap no-name Hong Kong
> sweatshop batteries anyway?

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Have a look at their web page
http://www.remco.com.hk Apparently they make some batteries for Hawker et
al. I wouldn't say they are no-name, they usually just brand the batteries
for others.

> Don't you have a good local battery dealer who can supply something
decent?

Not really

> If you want VRR batteries in this size and weight range, you should
consider proven performers, > such as Optima yellow  tops or Hawker G42VP or
G70VP.

I am going to get prices for them but I'd say the will be rather expensive.
I'm not in the US.

> At the one-hour rate, the Hawker Genesis G42VP will yield 33.8 ah to
1.67vpc
> vs. the Remco's claimed 35 ah at 1.55vpc.  And it weighs less, 14.9kg.
>
> http://www.hepi.com/genesis.htm

Hmmm, I will look into these.

> I think somebody said that the Optimas will return 43 ah at the one-hour
> rate (someone correct me if I'm wrong). They weigh about 20kg.

Yes, but these optimas are a bit too big.

Thanks for your reply
Dean
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Thanks Ralph!

That'll get me started, I want to plan the wiring properly in
my Mini Cooper project ( EV no. 2 .... )

If anyone has schematics of the tachometer pickup and remote
LED port, I'd be grateful ( I can probably figure it out, if
I open up the Raptor's case and look at the circuitry )
But it'd be better to have a diagram...

Regards

Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
> I disconnected one side of the inner tube and about a gallon of water just
> poured out. The pump would still work if you put it in test mode by
> reversing the wires but I think that disables the vacuum switch so it
> wouldn't shut off.

If you're talking about MES 70/6E pump, then yes, reversing polarity
bypasses vac sensor switch and the pump runs continuously.

If you suspend it in inner tube, always make a couple of holes in it at
the lowest point, so any condensation can drain out...

Victor
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Lock Hughes wrote:

...
> > SO, still want it? If you find the way, please let me know.
> 
>       I'll pursue it Victor.  I'm interested in the low maintenance and
> supposed high "anti-abuse" factors - for commercial-grade service.

Same here. If I manage to get one or two, I'll report my experience
with them.

Not saying it is impossible, they just have no interest to serve
and support individuals. If you place an order for many Zebras,
they may talk differently.

As always, amount of suppliers respect is proportional to
a thickness of money stack waved in front of their faces.

Victor
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--- Begin Message --- Myself and Ken Norwick were interviewed today for the am show on the local CBC Radio station. Ken lives in Calgary, has a 96 Saturn EV. The interviewer was well clued in, asked pertinent questions, like "you mean you just plug it in, like I plug in my block heater?". He asked me, "So what do people do who need more than the 50-80 km that an electric car can give?". I said, "They go down to their local Honda or Toyota dealer and get one of those hybrids. I've had mine for nearly 2 years, put 54,000 km on it and I figure that I've saved over 4,000 litres of gas compared to my minivan." "Hmm", he said to vacuum-land, "4,000 litres times about 65 cents a litre, do that math, that's quite a saving." Ken's answer was that new batteries are in development that will give 150-200 km range, which should be enough for just about anybody.

Seemed like a good positive little item for people to listen to on their morning commute next Monday.

Mike Hoskinson
Drive softly and carry a big battery.
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--- Begin Message --- Lee, I'm using a cheap old automatic 12 volt charger on some well used Hawkers. After a day on the charger, the 8 paralleled batteries read 15.0 volts and the meter on the charger shows practically no current. They don't heat up at all. The sticker on the batteries say 14.7 for a finishing voltage. Am I doing harm by using this charger? The meter that I'm using is a half decent Protec 506, so I don't think that 15.0 is far from the truth.

Mike Hoskinson

At 02:15 PM 03/04/02 -0800, you wrote:

Charger algorithms assume new batteries. If I leave the charger settings
the same, then the charger tends to overcharge this old battery in a
vain effort to bring it up. The result is that the battery quickly dies
-- it's murdered by the charger.

If I change the charger to compensate -- reduce the finishing voltage
and increase the finishing current -- then these old batteries die more
gracefully. Rather than a sudden loss of capacity and death, their
capacity drops gracefully, and I get another couple years use out of
them. For example, when they are 5 years old and have 1500 cycles, they
are down to 50% capacity and end at 7.2v and 12 amps.
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The listserver has been doing that to digests containing viruses for as long as I've been signed on. You should be able to see the complete digest in the source. Hotmail users: Click "View email message source" right below the header to view the entire digest.

Tim


From : Phil Bardsley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject : Odd digest format Date : Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:49:17 -0500 Someone asked if those who get the EV list as a digest have gotten an
odd format recently. I have about 3 times over the last week or so. It
seems to happen when one of the postings is cleaned by virus-detection
software. The subject is replaced by "Klez.E Immunity" and the digest
ends after that email. However, the entire digest then comes as an
attachment with a .html suffix. The attachment doesn't display properly
in a browser, but it's easy to read in a text editor.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- On the ABC world news just now, a short piece on the Evangelical Environmental Network ad which asks "What would Jesus drive?"

Woman at the pumps filling her SUV: ~ what you drive isn't a moral choice
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--- Begin Message ---
This is very interesting since I have seen the
story on CNN and USA today about the push by
the bible thumpers for a more 'intelligent'
choice of vehicles.  This is definately a good sign
that the general populace is questioning our transportation
choices as being excessive.
Just last night I followed a Ford Expedition (single occupant
of 'coarse') with the personalized plate 'TOO BIG'
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
Ohio, capitol of Coal!  Some would say who cares, it
all blows into Canada :-) The grass is always 'browner'
on the other side.

Michael Haseltine wrote:
On the ABC world news just now, a short piece on the Evangelical Environmental Network ad which asks "What would Jesus drive?"

Woman at the pumps filling her SUV: ~ what you drive isn't a moral choice


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We are working on our first EV (a converted Oldsmobile Firenza) and are
looking for people's experience as to what could be the optimal battery pack
to get a good range, low maintenance, and good reliability.  The engine and
trunk space are rather limited so a smaller battery size would be good.  The
controller is rated for 144 Volts.

Thank you for your time.
Stan or Johanna at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> What will happen if an output of isolated DC-DC fed from
> a battery string is connected to one of the batteries in the
> string?

It works just fine. No instabilities or other odd effects. I do it all
the time with my Battery Balancer.

The pack as a whole discharges (to power the DC/DC). The one battery
connected to the DC/DC output charges. The net current into this battery
is (charge current) - (total discharge current). For example, your three
12v batteries = 36v are charging one 12v battery. If the DC/DC draws 10
amps at 36v and outputs 25 amps at 12v, then two batteries discharge at
10 amps, and one charges at (25 amps) - (10 amps) = 15 amps.

> Now, if all OK, what if output of isolated DC-DC connected to it's
> input and to the battery? Output voltage is the same as input
> (adjustable). I know, it will waste energy trying to "recharge" the
> whole pack it's fed from, but is it "stable" arrangement?

Yes, it also works, and is a stable arrangement. Obviously, the DC/DC
converter has an efficiency less than 100%, so energy is lost. In your
example with three 12v batteries = 36v, and a DC/DC that draws 10 amps
and outputs 9 amps, all the batteries are being discharged at (9 amps) -
(10 amps) = 1 amp. In other words, your DC/DC is just a fancy load
resistor.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am sending this message for Peter, please reply directly to him.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

-----Original Message-----
From: Belden, Peter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:11 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: [force_ev] seeking Brusa NLG412 power stage


> I have a 1999 Solectria Force lead acid model electric vehicle and 
> apparently the power stage in my Brusa NLG412 charger has died.  I 
> mailed the charger to Solectria and they explained that the coils are 
> burned up and beyond repair.  So I think I need to replace the power 
> stage.  Anyone know where I might be able to get a power stage for my 
> Brusa NLG412 charger?  I need to repair my charger so that I can drive

> the car and then charge it on 220 volt outlets.  I sent Brusa an email

> today to ask if they sell the replacement power stage for the NLG412.
> 
> Thank you,
> Peter
> -------------------------------------
> Peter Belden
> 328 Churchill Ave.
> Palo Alto, CA 94301
> 408-887-0251
> 

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> Lee, I'm using a cheap old automatic 12 volt charger on some well
> used Hawkers. After a day on the charger, the 8 paralleled batteries
> read 15.0 volts and the meter on the charger shows practically no
> current. They don't heat up at all. The sticker on the batteries
> say 14.7 for a finishing voltage. Am I doing harm by using this
> charger?

First, what is "automatic" about your charger? Does it automatically
turn itself off after some period of time, or when battery voltage
reaches some limit? If you are going to use it with sealed batteries, it
is important to be sure it doesn't just blindly keep charging them
forever.

Second, can you measure the actual charging current you are seeing at
the end of a charge cycle? The meter on many chargers is near junk
quality, and wildly inaccurate.

15v is a full equalizing charge voltage for your Hawkers. It won't hurt
to do it once in a while, but if you do it on every charge cycle, you
will be overcharging unnecessarily and thus shortening their life. What
you will see is that the batteries develop an excessive voltage sag
under load, lose amphour capacity, and their charge voltage rises to 15v
at low current well before they are actually fully charged (due to grid
corrosion).
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I've recently started helping out a high school team that's
planning to participate in the 2004 Sunrace in Australia.
http://www.sunrace.com.au/
Since I haven't done this before I'd like listers to
double-check my thinking on the battery pack design.

They're building a vehicle for the ultra-light EV category.
The current plan is that they'll be running a Lynch 48v motor
with a Curtis 1209b controller.  These were chosen because
somebody had them going spare.  I've posted pictures and the
nameplate data on my web page at
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/lrw/solarcar.html

The rules:
They're allowed a total of three battery packs, each of which
can be used once per day.  Each pack is limited to 2500 Wh and
62.5kg, and the batteries must be sealed.  The rules on the
website are not entirely clear, but I believe the permitted Wh
capacity is based on the manufacturer's stated C/20 capacity.
The pack is allowed to be overweight by up to 5% or half a
battery, whichever is less.

The motor:
It's a Lynch Motor Company LM200, rated for 48v, 190A and 8kW.
QUESTION: does anyone on the list happen to have a set of
performance graphs for a Lynch LM200 motor?  There are graphs
on the manufacturer's web page http://www.lemcoltd.com/graphs2.htm
but they are for a later version of the motor.  (I realise I
could write to them and ask, I just thought I'd ask here first.)

The pack:
Given that we have a 48v motor, I think we need a 48v pack, or
maybe we should go higher?  The controller will let us go up to
72v. The motor manufacturer has a performance graph for 60v
operation, but, as noted above, this is for a later version of
the motor, and also it says "not recommended except for
competition" - and I don't think an endurance race is the kind
of competition they mean.

Batteries:
The sealed batteries that I know about (and I believe I should
be able to get them in this country) are the Trojan SG series
and of course Optima Yellow-Tops.  But YTs are too big - we
couldn't make a 48v pack out of them without breaking the size
limits. The Trojan SG50s would make a 48v pack of exactly the
right weight and capacity, so they would seem to be the way to go.
QUESTION: (mainly for New Zealand and Australian listers) Are
there any other sealed batteries the team should consider?

Charging:
At the end of any given day they should find themselves with up to 3
48v packs to charge (I suppose ideally they should use up all three
to max DOD on the longest day, otherwise the pack should be smaller).
If the state of all three is similar enough, they could be hooked
together either in series or parallel and all charged at the same
time.  If one pack is in a radically different state to the others
it will have to be managed separately.
QUESTION: If I order a PFC20 and it arrives soon enough, is this a job
it can do?  i.e. can it be throttled back enough to charge just one of
these small packs on its own?  Or failing that is it a good fit for
charging all three packs at once?
The reason I'm thinking this way is, I'll need a charger for own EV
project sooner or later, and I could just buy it early and lend it
to the team.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
     --- James R. Healey, USA Today
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