EV Digest 2445

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: l e d's
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Visio as schematic tool/ free stencils
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: VW Rabbit adapter plate
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Responding to EV Naysayers
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Crazy Go-Kart EV ideas
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
        by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
        by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) AC controller for Alternators
        by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
        by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
        by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: l e d's
        by Geoff Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
West Marine sells them for ~$6

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:15 PM
Subject: l e d's


> Has anyone tried converting tail-stop-park lights to LED's? 
> 
> Uncle Rich in Central Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like that
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 8:17 PM
Subject: Visio as schematic tool/ free stencils


> I don't know if anyone on the list uses Visio for things like schematics
> for their car electrical systems, but a coworker has a website with some
> free stencils for Visio for lots of EV-related stuff from AC inlet plugs
> to motors and relays. The website is www.shapedev.com
> 
> 
> Seth
> -- 
> vze3v25q@verizondotnet
> 
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roy,
   I think I might've written you, but it's a good
thing you went on the list.
The mounting holes for the 9" motor, which I have, are
in fact different than the 8".
Also, if my vehicle does sell, I haven't done you much
good.
   Haven't had much in the way of solid bites.  I
intend to break ground on the next car this Feb.  I'd
imagine you're trying to get going ASAP, but if you
decide to go with the 9" combination, I could sell the
motor and adapter plate/coupling for $1400.  And if my
front support for the motor is not welded to the car,
I'll toss that in free.
   541.472.1115 (can't remember if that's in my
signature)
Sincerely, 

--- Roy Reker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am interested in buying a used coupling and
> adapter plate for an 8" advanced DC motor to a VW
> rabbit. I have tried to make my own and had trouble
> with runout and centering.
> 
> Also interested in a lightweigt aluminum flywheel
> for the Rabbit.
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Folks:

Well, the charger's installed and certified. At some point Toyota will be
releasing our new RAV4. Woo Hoo!
This will be our second EV, and we're currently in the process of dumping
our gas ICE vehicles. I'm looking for a diesel pickup for the occasional
long trips or work hauling. We'll be burning biodiesel for infrequent ICE
usage. Well on schedule for our planned independence on fossil fuel for our
transportation needs.

Only one problem left: Mindless friends constantly parroting the anti-EV
propaganda they pick up from the media. You know the type. They say things
like, "Those solar panels you bought will take years to pay for themselves".
(Gee, good thing they have a TWENTY-FIVE YEAR warranty.)
Or, my personal favorite: "EV's pollute just as much as gas cars, but the
pollution is located at the power plant". I then point at my solar
panels...and sigh.

But it's all becoming so, "If I have to explain it, you simply won't
understand. I think Dabney Coleman put it best when he said, "The more
intelligent you are, the less TV you watch".

Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm looking for a
point-by-point refutation of the most common anti-EV myths that we all know
so well.

I'd like to print multiple copies to hand out in response to the naysayers
blather, so I don't have to waste more of MY time explaining things they
won't understand anyway.

Thanks!

J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
1992 Soleq EVcort
2002 RAV4 EV

The oil companies may run our government, but we don't have to buy their
product.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if an adaptor plate exists for GE go-kart motors,
specifically is there one sold that provides support for the splined end
of the armatture? I have a Yamaha/GE sep-ex cart motor and if I can't
find one, I will have to make an adapter. I don't wnat to, though. But
if I do, I will probably get a few made if there is demand and sell some
to other go-kart and LEV folk. (I think there are only 2 or 3 basic
go-kart mounting patterns)

Anyone ever seen such an adapter?

Seth

Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> Matt,
> If it has a commutator and brushes (you can see this through
> vent holes) it is universal.  If you are still concerned, connect
> it to your car battery and it will run slow (assuming it is a 120Vac
> universal motor).
> Rod
> 
> Matthew Muelver wrote:
> > On Friday, November 22, 2002, at 03:22 PM, Humphrey, Timothy wrote:
> >
> >> Nope, they are universal motors.  In fact just a couple weeks ago I
> >> hooked
> >> my circular saw up to an old SLI battery(car) and cut through a 1x6 pine
> >> board. It was slow but it did it!
> >
> >
> > I've heard that many motors are "universal" but I'm wary to try running
> > an AC rated motor on DC if I've spent any money on it (or even if its
> > worth something).  There must be a reason it says AC on the side, even
> > if its only in the brushes or something like that.
> >
> > Do you (or does anyone else) have a list of exactly which motors are
> > indeed "universal"?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Matt
> > --
> > If you're reading this, chances are your either:
> > A. A Honda freak, just like me.
> >     '01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
> > B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
> >     Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
> > or
> > C. An EV freak, just like me!
> > :-)
> >
> >

-- 
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if an adaptor plate exists for GE go-kart motors,
specifically is there one sold that provides support for the splined end
of the armatture? I have a Yamaha/GE sep-ex cart motor and if I can't
find one, I will have to make an adapter. I don't wnat to, though. But
if I do, I will probably get a few made if there is demand and sell some
to other go-kart and LEV folk. (I think there are only 2 or 3 basic
go-kart mounting patterns)

Anyone ever seen such an adapter?
Hello Seth,

I don't know of one that is commercially available.

Bob Schneeveis made one for me years ago when I needed one for a Golf Car Dyno.
I think we ordered the splined input shaft from a Golf car rear end and then he pressed a double row ball bearing on it. This bearing was mounted in a piece of aluminum bar stock that was about 1.5" x 2.5" x 7".
The nice thing to know is that the adaptor does not need to cover the whole end of the motor. It's possible to just use two of the four mounting bolts and make the adaptor out of a smaller piece of stock. It should have a reference surface to align it to the frame of the motor.

HTH,

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla "Got Amps" Shirts now available online.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't worry about the naysayers.  You can't make them into
fans of electric vehicles no matter what say or do.  Invest
your time and patience with people willing and interested in
learning about EVs.

Tom Shay


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 8:40 AM
Subject: Responding to EV Naysayers


> Dear Folks:
>
> Well, the charger's installed and certified. At some point Toyota will be
> releasing our new RAV4. Woo Hoo!
> This will be our second EV, and we're currently in the process of dumping
> our gas ICE vehicles. I'm looking for a diesel pickup for the occasional
> long trips or work hauling. We'll be burning biodiesel for infrequent ICE
> usage. Well on schedule for our planned independence on fossil fuel for
our
> transportation needs.
>
> Only one problem left: Mindless friends constantly parroting the anti-EV
> propaganda they pick up from the media. You know the type. They say things
> like, "Those solar panels you bought will take years to pay for
themselves".
> (Gee, good thing they have a TWENTY-FIVE YEAR warranty.)
> Or, my personal favorite: "EV's pollute just as much as gas cars, but the
> pollution is located at the power plant". I then point at my solar
> panels...and sigh.
>
> But it's all becoming so, "If I have to explain it, you simply won't
> understand. I think Dabney Coleman put it best when he said, "The more
> intelligent you are, the less TV you watch".
>
> Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm looking for a
> point-by-point refutation of the most common anti-EV myths that we all
know
> so well.
>
> I'd like to print multiple copies to hand out in response to the naysayers
> blather, so I don't have to waste more of MY time explaining things they
> won't understand anyway.
>
> Thanks!
>
> J. Marvin Campbell
> Culver City, CA
> 1992 Soleq EVcort
> 2002 RAV4 EV
>
> The oil companies may run our government, but we don't have to buy their
> product.
>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 
> > I even looked at their NiMh batteries. I could fit a set of those in,
> > for increased capacity! Only $30,000.
> 
> Yes, nimh are largely Unobtainium. The only hope is to find a used set
> from a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight.
> 

Has anybody asked GM for the used batteries from the EV1's?

If they do 'recycle' those cars, the packs have to go somewhere.

Anybody know who to contact?

Cliff

www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is Ives' response to Lee comments:
--Tony

Lee Hart Wrote:
>He has his work cut out for him. Car alternators are fairly low
> efficiency, and need to run at very high rpm to develop significant
> amounts of horsepower. That's are two strikes against using them
> effectively as motors.
>
> I would think that the same $200 would go much farther towards a brushed
> DC motor, which can use a far simpler controller.

It is true the alternator is very inefficient. The way the rotor is 
magnetized creates lots of bearing drag under heavy load. Also the width of 
the stator is very short resulting higher wire loss. Replacing the arm with 
a high efficiency configuration and stacking on more stator then rewiring 
would deliver high efficiency results. Cost is the point here. Although a 
high efficiency alt motor rebuild is not out of range.

Ives Meador
www.cruxelectronics.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone contacted them about surplussing *any* of the parts in the EV1?
Let them crush the cars, but save the useful bits...
Bill, any pertinent contacts there?

-Chris

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000


> > 
> > > I even looked at their NiMh batteries. I could fit a set of those in,
> > > for increased capacity! Only $30,000.
> > 
> > Yes, nimh are largely Unobtainium. The only hope is to find a used set
> > from a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight.
> > 
> 
> Has anybody asked GM for the used batteries from the EV1's?
> 
> If they do 'recycle' those cars, the packs have to go somewhere.
> 
> Anybody know who to contact?
> 
> Cliff
> 
> www.ProEV.com
> 
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These same cells are $10 each ($8.25 in lots of 100) on this page:

http://www.users.voicenet.com/~sgphoto/nicad_batteries.htm

IIRC, these don't have any advantage over lead batteries in the specific 
energy department (they're not intended for EVs, so low mass wasn't designed 
into them).  But they should last longer, and won't be as much affected by 
cold as lead.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 Nov 2002 at 16:12, Christopher Meier wrote:

> Has anyone contacted them about surplussing *any* of the parts in the EV1?
> Let them crush the cars, but save the useful bits.

Please pardon my negativity: given GM's attitude about the whole issue, I 
can't imagine them being at all cooperative.  We're proving daily that EVs 
work.  To them, we represent the enemy.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stowe it some place that counts.
Tinning actually is a good idea.   I fully understand your concerns and angles.
It really stiffens up clamp connections and helps in heat dissipation.
I tin every thing  I can. I have not lost a connection yet.

I have done 80 amps pulls, and 50 amp NON PFC charger pulls with 150 amp peaks.
Tinned screw lug termination's are the only thing the survives this type of
abuse.

Please don't use "NOT EVER". Most of us have done EVERY thing wrong and know
exactly how it fails and What is a Danger and what Isn't.
When Joe recommends this , it's because it works for us, and very well I might
add.

In fact the only connections that have failed on PFC20s is a quality crimp done
with a $100 crimper and Spec lugs. Tinning solved this issue.
Did I make myself Clear enough?????



Sharkey wrote:

> >Have you tried tinning the wire before inserting it into the clamp.
>
> Absolutely, positively, DO NOT EVER apply solder to stranded wire that will
> be inserted into a pressure clamp type connector!!!!
>
> Solder is a very malleable metal, and while it may seem that it causes the
> pressure connector to be more secure in the beginning, the lead in the
> solder will "relax", resulting in a connection that degrades through time
> and allows the wire to become loose under the clamp.
>
> If you feel the need to tin the very ~ends~ of the wire for the purpose of
> containing the loose strands, this can be done but *only* if the tined end
> of the wire is not subjected to any pressure from the connector, which
> again, results in an unreliable connection.
>
> Applying a resistance lowering and corrosion proofing compound such as "No
> Al Ox" would be advisable. This will lessen the connection's electrical
> resistance, exclude moisture, and prevent oxidation of the copper and brass
> components.
>
> In the end, if you are heating up your connector, either as a result of
> drawing high continuous charging currents, or because of the effects of
> power factor, your ~only~ proper response should be to step up to a
> connector that can handle the current without heating, or else turn the
> current down to an approved level.
>
> Using connectors (such as a dryer plug) with exposed live conductors is
> asking for trouble *and* likely to give EV charging another black eye in
> the public's perception. Clean up your act or go back to ICE.
>
> High current twist-lock connectors are used extensively in the RV industry.
> Check out your local RV supply store for suitable, water resistant plugs
> and receptacles with water proof, screw on travel caps.


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:

> These same cells are $10 each ($8.25 in lots of 100) on this page:
> http://www.users.voicenet.com/~sgphoto/nicad_batteries.htm
> IIRC, these don't have any advantage over lead batteries in the
> specific energy department (they're not intended for EVs, so low mass
> wasn't designed into them).  But they should last longer, and won't
> be as much affected by cold as lead.

John, is there any chance these 9.25" high cells would fit in your
Sparrow? If so, they are cheaper than a new set of Optimas, and should
beat them in energy density. Optima is 12v x 55ah x 13 = 8.58kwh. 15 of
these cells fit in the Optima footprint, for a total of 1.2v x 34ah x 15
x 13 = 7.956kwh. So once you take Peukert into account, the nicads win.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marvin Campbell wrote:
>
> Only one problem left: Mindless friends constantly parroting
the anti-EV
> propaganda they pick up from the media. You know the type. They
say things
> like, "Those solar panels you bought will take years to pay for
themselves".
> (Gee, good thing they have a TWENTY-FIVE YEAR warranty.)
> Or, my personal favorite: "EV's pollute just as much as gas
cars, but the
> pollution is located at the power plant". I then point at my
solar
> panels...and sigh.

On the powerplant one, even if you weren't running on solar
panels, you have a vehicle that is far more efficient than an ICE
car.  Just measure it with a kwh meter, upstream of the AC plug.
If you get 3 mi/kwh, you're looking at something like 108mpg
(assuming a gallon of gasoline contains something like 36kwh).
Your vehicle doesn't have cold start pollution, fill-up service
station pollution, noise pollution (one of my favorites), etc.
etc.  Maybe you can throw some of these things in your handout.
And to top it off, the EV has the ability to be "fueled" totally
by renewable energy (solar, wind, microhydro) - no gas car can
make that claim.  That last is what made it for me on EVs, come
hell or high water.
>
> But it's all becoming so, "If I have to explain it, you simply
won't
> understand. I think Dabney Coleman put it best when he said,
"The more
> intelligent you are, the less TV you watch".
>
> Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm
looking for a
> point-by-point refutation of the most common anti-EV myths that
we all know
> so well.
>
> I'd like to print multiple copies to hand out in response to
the naysayers
> blather, so I don't have to waste more of MY time explaining
things they
> won't understand anyway.

I've given up on the pamphlets and explaining to or arguing with
people.  Most people don't see the connections between EVs and
renewable energy, or care.  I'm just going to do my own thing.
That's pretty much how anything gets done in this world.  If the
example of my doing brings people along for the ride, then that's
all to the well and good.  But more power to ya!

Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- What do you want to know?

I converted the red brake/tail lamps and amber turn signal lamps on my OEM Ford Ranger EV by installing LEDtronic's automotive replacements. These are the size of the incandescent bulb with the same base configuration, yet instead of a white-hot glowing element, each one packs 24 cool-running high-brightness red or yellow LEDs in a very slick package. I had some trouble with the yellow turn signals in front because the lens assemblies are more orange-amber than yellow, which filters the pure specific-yellow light emitted from the LED arrays. I may change those housings out for clear lenses.

The turn signal flasher was an adventure I wish not to repeat. Ford uses a proprietary electronic flasher that, like most OEM flashers relays, features current detection. When a bulb is burned out, it sees the reduced current draw and flashes at double-speed to indicate the burned out bulb. With all bulbs burned out, it just buzzes. That flasher module also handles the hazard circuit, but it is less picky about burned out bulbs, probably in the interest of road-side safety over alerting the driver. Of course, the LEDs draw so little current they look like burned out bulbs to the flasher module. I had to replace this one flasher module with two separate flasher modules (turns and hazards) manufactured specifically for LED arrays on trucks and busses. It's not exactly a common item.

Before going with the relatively expensive LEDtronics bulb replacements, I tried the APC LED replacements sold at my local Pep Boys for $8 each. These were of unsatisfactory brightness due to having only 11 rather cheap LEDs each.

Another way to go is to hack up your tail light housings and assemble your own arrays. The challenge I see is the cruel automotive environment. Our local public transit agency has been replacing the "cheap" bus LED retrofits installed a couple years ago due to water infiltration. They are going with higher-quality units this time around. Lots of choices for complete assemblies if you drive a bus or tractor/trailer rig (or a Corbin Sparrow, which uses such housings).

--
Geoff Shepherd
'98 OEM Ford Ranger EV
'00 Honda Insight


On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 08:15 PM, Richard Millhouse wrote:

Has anyone tried converting tail-stop-park lights to LED's?

Uncle Rich in Central Oregon
--- End Message ---

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