EV Digest 2460

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: OT Efficient Dehumidification (was: But Energy and Beer
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Silent Running
        by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Updated Ghiamonster Pics...
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
        by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: At What Price? (was: Help With Repairing Traction Motor)
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: PWM "tuning" (was: Silent Running (George Jetson))
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Alternator/ motor setup
        by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by Mason Convey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) trickle store
        by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related) 
        by "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Silent Running (George Jetson)
        by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Zinc air.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Victor's PowerCheq Mystery SOLVED!!!!
 19) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: OT slightly.  DODGE BAWL
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
See: http://www.heathelper.com/

It switches so the heat can be sent outside in the summer, and kept
inside in the winter.

Disclaimer: Don't personally have one.


On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 10:19 AM, Tim Clevenger wrote:
> I wish there was a cheap and energy-efficient way to get the moisture 
> out of vented air.  My electric dryer has to be vented outside, lest 
> the house turn into a sauna, and in the winter, you can see the heat 
> being wasted.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ah, yes, but are they bright enough to be programmed to vary the tone
according to a external slow clock like a VSS?


----- Original Message -----
From: "tgleeman2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Silent Running

> Hi EV Group,
> Here's a way to reproduce any loud sound if you need to un-silence an EV.
> Try using a recordable voice module
> with an on-board 24 watt amplifier by Elk Products. They have a 4 and an 8
> sound card that uses Chipcorder
> Technology by ISD.  See at http://www.elkproducts.com/. Vroooom!
> Tom Gleeman
> San Diego, CA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 4:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Silent Running
> > What would people be willing to pay for a board that they could buy with
> > number of samples preloaded into it along with the ability to play those
> > samples at varying rates depending on output from VSS?
> >
> > Board would need to be combined with a inexpensive power amplifier and
> > speaker to actually produce engine sounds..
> ---------------------------------------------
> Introducing NetZero Long Distance
> 1st month Free!
> Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

Steve wrote:

> Hi all,
> Just wanted to let everyone know that there's updated pictures of the
> Ghiamonster at http://www.ghiamonster.com in the Pictures section at the
> bottom.

Thanks for the link to the pictures, Steve. It looks great, and is coming along nicely.
The rear end is a work of art. Keep us posted on this next great EV drag racing 

See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: RE: Amps Volts can Kostov take?

  The 'answers' to the questions from David have been interesting to
  read. I know they aren't exactly right because they don't address
  some confusion David has about motors. Not being an expert, these
  comments only address Davids confusion.

David Dymaxion wrote:
> I'm slowly converting my Porsche to electric power. I have decided to
> go sepex with a Kostov. <...> Randy Holmquist sells a
> rewound, banded, and rebrushed Kostov for $1600. Warp sells what
> sounds like an indestructible "Kostov" ...

  I don't believe the Warp is sep-ex. I believe Randy uses motors in
  heavy duty equipment, not drag racing. Maybe he has a sideline, but
  I know of no one who uses sep-ex for drag racing. The Kostov can be
  expected to put out the same power in industrial service sep-ex or
  series. It does have regen which I think is worth the extra effort.
  Sep-ex is also potentially 1 or 2 % more efficient at the cost of a
  more complex control system.

> I'm tenatively planning to limit motor amps to 1000 via a DCP
> controller. Since it'll be sepex, there will be no current
> multiplication, battery amps = motor amps. OK, so for the big
> question, do you racers think Randy's motor is up to 1000 Amps for
> maybe 13 seconds? How many amps could it handle for 60 seconds?

  The DCP I'm familiar with isn't sep-ex. Maybe, there is a new one. But
  I think there may be some confusion. When you mention 'motor amps' in
  a sep-ex, do you mean armature + field ?  The answers provided so far
  assume we know what you're talking about. For example, are you just
  planning to strap the batteries across the armature and control the
  field ? That certainly isn't efficient. Randy might be able to answer
  your questions.

  What is the "current multiplication" you mention. At low back EMF, the
  series controller kicks out a high current for a few milliseconds and
  turns off. The motor inductance keeps current flowing until the PWM
  kicks in again. This inductive driven current gets through diodes
  allowing the increased current we think you see a 'multiplication'. A
  series controller will not be happy trying to regulate either the low
  field current or high armature current. Certainly, the 500 Amp Curtis
  won't be satisfactory with the big Kostov.

"Yep, you got it right both ways -- you could do it with current
multiplication, or do it with none. I haven't totally settled on a
control system. If the idle speed were not too high, I would not mind
slipping the clutch to take off. This could be as simple as a
variable resistor in the field. At the high end, I could use two
controllers, one for the field and one for the armature."

  This made no sense in context and a study of available sep-ex controls
  would be a good move.

     "Two get less stressed"

  If two motors are 'less stressed', then they aren't being used right.

     "Two seems to be the NEDRA trick of late"

  If it's fashionable, then there might be a reason.

"I'm hoping that going sepex helps with the last two points. I think
alot of the stress the motors get is from current multiplication."

  That would be an earth shaking discovery.

"Getting the same torque for less motor current I'm hoping gives good
power without fireballing."

  A motor is designed for either a high current and low Voltage or lower
  current and higher Voltage. Then you go racing and push the limits
  until the motor gives out. This is not a reason to use sep-ex.

                      "I tend to simplistically think of motors as
fuses, too much current melts them. I do know if you get too much
voltage, arcing can destroy things pretty quick. And, of course, high
voltage enables higher currents, more heat, and higher rpm, that can
destroy motors. Guess I'll just have to turn up the wick a little at
a time until I see arcing or smell something burning. :)

  The Volts that cause arcing are across the armature comm bars. At high
  rpm, There is a back EMF you don't see or measure unless you want to
  know what's going on. The Amps across the armature cause the Volts
  that do the arcing.

                                                      "I'm planning
on staying in known voltage regions (240 to 336 V), and maybe twice
"regular" current (but only 1/2 of Wayland current) levels, but with
sepex hope that motor current is actually more modest than a "600"
amp controller doing 3x current multiplication."

  This doesn't have meaning. The sep-ex motor is wound differently and
  for a different Voltage and different Amps in the wires. You won't
  get more power from sep-ex.

  I'm waving my hands 'stop'. Find out what real life can get out of
  these motors.

"Certainly, the input power is very close, between sepex and series.
As you said, sepex puts more current in the field,..."

  Perhaps more Ampere turns, not many.

"....giving more torque,..."

  At lower Voltage maybe, but not more Power.

"....and series recirculates the current (current multiplication)
to give more torque."

  No. At lower speeds, the series motor traditionally gives more torque,
  but that is a design function.

"This is more pronounced at low RPM, and motor
current = battery current once in current limit mode, for series.

"So here is where the handwaving starts... Say at stall, it seems that
having 1800 series motor amps has got to be tougher on the motor than
sepex 600 amps, no matter what the voltage. Same power in, and same
power out, in both cases. Haven't some of the NEDRA guys zorched
their motors on the starting line?"

  This is meaningless. You are missing some important numbers here.

"I think the basic debate is this: Is voltage or amps more harmful to
the motor? I'm taking the amps side (for now at least :) ). I do
realize there are many NEDRA racers that pour alot of amps through
their series motors, and they keep ticking."

  No debate; the excessive motor Amps that go along with excessive
  armature Voltage causes arcing. Racing gets more arcing than not
  racing and this is exponentially worse the more sincere you are.

"Fireballing/racing is not the only motivator for sepex. Another is to
do something a little different from most, kind of a research

  Berube and Rudman are researching advance. That's interesting. But
  they know what they're doing.

"I also want regen, home of the 2002 Winter Olympics has some
serious hills."

  Good reason. And the car can be fast, but you won't play with the
  other suspects with sep-ex.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael A. Radtke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: At What Price? (was: Help With Repairing Traction Motor)

> Rod: It's a GE motor.
> Bob: The ElectraVan is a REAL car.  I happen to like microcars.  I
>      own an Isetta too.  They both have about the same top speed of
>      55 mph.
     Hi  Mike;

    OK I'll desist, althought yu wouldn't catch me dead on the turnpike in
that thing at 55MPH, or maybe you'd see me dead, out there, after being run
over by an 18 wheeler that is practicing for the next "Cannonball Run"
Snowing today here in CT All the radio is talking about is jackknifed 18
wheelers. It should be fun, NOT, going to work in awile. Going in the gas
mobile as I HATE caked salt an' snow in my Rabbit. As it's an old car
already, don't need to help it's natural aging process any more than I
hafta. It duz FINE in snow, BTW, Smooth electric power gives ya nice
traction in slick stuff.

    I guess a Think could be called a Mini-car, too? Wouldn't have a problem
turnpikin' to work in that, although I would be in the Rite lane all the
time. But it duz evoke comfort in it's decent handling. Right, You Thinkers,
out there? I was impressed with how it DODN'T feel like the minicars of old.
I nearly lost it years ago on the hiway in a Borgward, mini something at
about 55 , it just started to wallow all over the road. I needed two lanes
awile to haul it back under control, much to the amusment of the other kind
folks that got out of my way for my acrobatics. A family friend had a
penchant for wierd and strange cars, back in the 50's He would turn up with
Borgwards, Isettas, Fiets, and a Cool one that sounded like Porch, front or
rear? THAT one  was 'Way cool, I LIKED that one! Dad said it sounded like
the garbage truck, and ran out with the garbage one morning when he came
over in it. I even got to drive it, a Speedster, I think it was called. Sure
drove different than the family Roadmonster , by Buick, that we had!
> All:
> I ended up ordering an entire brush assembly for $172.  That's a fair
> price to fabricate it since GE no longer stocks parts for the motor.  My
> old assembly was serviceable, but the "right" repair was to replace it.
> The place is Jos T. Fewkes in NJ.
> The brushes were $30 each from the same place.  That a lot better price
> than most other places, but no bargain for a little slab of charcoal.
> So for less than $300, I will be back on the road.  How can I complain
> if the fuel pump for my VW Vanagon costs $275.  ... Of course, I
> replaced that for $10 with a visit to my local U-Pull-It junk yard.
     Great! Thanks for sharing a useful service or source with us. Yeah it's
a perspective thing. I had to buy a Fuel Pump for a Honda Accord, cost about
the same. Miss the old Ford style that runs off the camshaft, cost about 15
bux.Like the Bug had.



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I actually did this by mistake when I worked at Caterpillar back in 1991.
I was redesigning a bipolar transistor control that had a nominal PWM frequency
of 750 Hz. When the truck went into the plugging routine (motor braking) and reached
zero speed, the accelerator could modulate the PWM frequency. I never learned any
tunes, but a musically inclined person could of done quite well with this 10,000 lb instrument.


At 07:48 PM 12/5/02, you wrote:

Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:

What would people be willing to pay for a board that they could buy with a
number of samples preloaded into it along with the ability to play those
samples at varying rates depending on output from VSS?

Board would need to be combined with a inexpensive power amplifier and
speaker to actually produce engine sounds..

You already have the "amplifier" in an EV. Just alter the PWM frequency for the controller. You could program the controller to play any tune you like. It would get loudest at 50% duty cycle.

_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plug your EVcort into your Rav4.

Stay Charged!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:30 PM
> Hey David:
> > On 5 Dec 2002 at 7:45, Marvin Campbell wrote:
> > 
> >> So Edison finally came out and installed my TOU meter but 
> you're gonna LOVE
> >> this:
> >> 
> >> They won't allow me to charge my Soleq EVcort on that circuit.
> >> 
> > 
> > So did they put a lock on all the j-boxes in the circuit?  
> If not, what's to
> > stop you from doing some rewiring once they've installed 
> everything they
> > require and driven their SUVs back to the SCE office?
> Way ahead of you on THAT angle!
> But still I'm compelled to play by the rules as I don't want 
> to give them a
> reason to come and pull my TOU meter and boot me from the 
> program- which
> apparently I'm only allowed into because of my RAV4 EV 
> charger from Clean
> Fuel.
> The main reason I'm participating in the program is to do 
> what I can to
> create as much demand for ANY EV related program as I can personally
> demonstrate, as only demand can drive growth. As soon as  
> Hollywood Toyota
> coughs up my RAV4 EV we'll be running two EV's, but by 
> excluding one of them
> from their program, Edison has now cut my contribution in half.
> Mostly it's the principle of the thing. They tout their program for
> promoting EV's, and then exclude an EV simply because  it 
> doesn't use an
> inductive charger? What about when the charging standard 
> changes back to
> conductive after 2006? Will they then exclude all the 
> inductively charged
> EV's?
> What tha' hey?
> J. Marvin Campbell
> Culver City, CA
> Quos deus vult perdere prius dementat.
> (Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they drive crazy first.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The Siemens starter/generator will supposedly be capable of 10
>electric hp.  This style has the windings placed around the flywheel.

 Sounds like the DynaStart used on my Isetta.  It's a generator, not
 an alternator though.  Back to those expensive brushes.

 Mike -- Phoenix AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Find a local EV-1 or S-10E owner and ask him/her to bring a
MagneCharger by for a day or two. Wire it up, have the guy fire up
your meter, then yank it down and re-wire your
receptacle. Alternatively, you can threaten them with the idea of
going to the media about it. A local news station would probably eat
up a story like that... *trying* to do something about our environment
in a big way with two EVs and several other things, yet still getting
screwed by the system. Yeah, you'll get a story out of that! ;)

You'll soon have two EVs registered in your name... do they really
think your goal is to get off-peak rates for a washing
machine??? (rolls eyes)

     -~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-

     website.           http://www.1opossum.com
     pager.voicemail.   602.422.7996.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
     email.             [EMAIL PROTECTED]
     AOL Messenger.     mtnbikeAZ
     Yahoo! Messenger.  mtnbike_az
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have (2) Avcon paddle kits still new in the boxes and never used. Sure
would like to sell them. Would that not help you?

Don Buckshot
Kansas City
816-582-6891 mobile
www.austinev.org/evalbum/300.html Solectria Force (for sale)
www.austinev.org/evalbum/299.html Dodge TEVan (sold)

> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of David Dymaxion
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:43 PM
> Maybe it would reassure them if you had an avcon, that can't easily
> power anything but an EV, instead of a regular plug?
> --- Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > From: "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:59:53 -0600
> > >
> > > I wonder what the efficiency difference is between the conductive
> > and
> > > inductive connections especially if you include the cost/energy
> > of the
> > > equipment required.  Seems to me if they are requiring you use a
> > system that
> > > costs more and wastes more energy they really only want the good
> > PR of
> > > offering the program, but they would rather that you did not
> > actually take
> > > advantage of the program.
> >
> > NAW!!!...You think? That's a mighty cynical view there Andre.
> >
> > Next thing you know you're going to suggest big business sticks us
> > with the
> > crappier inefficient technology, while using all the good stuff for
> > their
> > own money-making enterprises. (Funny how common electromotive
> > systems are in
> > big business, but EV's just aren't feasible for all us little
> > people.)
> >
> > I think I'll go shoot some heroin and put on my rose-colored
> > glasses; when I
> > wake up maybe the Bush administration will have all been a bad
> > dream.
> >
> > Prost!
> >
> > Marv
> >
> =====
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
 I understand it is not terribly efficient, but what is the efficiency of
creating Hydrogen gas from water.

ie: if you could use waste heat from normal day to day processes., couldnt
you generate elec off of this, and store it hydrogen to be released later?

I understand that "why not just store it in a battery and use that..!"
but i was thinking more along the lines that you could have fuel cell
generator on board.. for longer trip/emergency usage.  without having to use
smelly old gas etc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
why not just install a radiator in the path of the dryer exaust.. and  route
inside air through that..heating clean inside air.

my dad used to do the old sock and route the air back in to the house..
we didnt notice sauna activity.. since we had the heater on too...  dried it

what was most annoying was teeny tiny lint everywhere..

If your house had enough people.. meaning that you
basically run the dryer 8 hours a day..due to the clothes load..
  could you use thermo electrics to atleast help in your ev charging?

same as on gas heater vents..

or is the amount too 'piddling' to deal with.

> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tim Clevenger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 1:19 PM
> >Subject: Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related) 
> >
> >
> >Hi Lee.
> >
> >>From:     Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>         To:
> >>    
> >>Subject:  Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)    
> >>Date:     Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:33:04 -0800         
> >>
> >>If you are air conditioning, then the electric stove is a 
> >better choice
> >>than gas, because essentially 100% of the heat it produces goes into
> >>whatever you are cooking. Gas stoves have lots of waste 
> >heat that only
> >>heats the kitchen; bad news when you are air conditiong, 
> >because you pay
> >>double; once to produce the excess heat, and again to pump 
> >it out of the
> >>house.
> >
> >There are two problems with electric stovetops:  first, they 
> >heat most 
> >efficiently through conduction; i.e. a metal pot touching 
> >the burner.  If 
> >you have a warped pot, or an odd-shaped pan, you tend to get 
> >uneven heating. 
> >  Second, they take forever to heat up, and once they're 
> >heated up, they'll 
> >stay heated up for long after you turn off the burner.  A 
> >boilover of oil 
> >can be prevented on a gas stove by turning off the burner, but
> >on an electric burner, the burner is still red-hot, causing 
> >the oil to spill 
> >over and catch fire.  (Ask me how I know.)  Plus, after 
> >you've removed the 
> >food from the burner, you're still heating the house.
> >
> >>Electric water heaters generally have better insulation 
> >than gas water
> >>heaters (because electricity costs more than gas). The 
> >extra insulation
> >>means the total energy used by an electric water heater is less. Of
> >>course, you pay more for this energy (because gas is dirt 
> >cheap). PS"
> >>Getting rid of the standing pilot in a water heater does not save
> >>energy; even the heat from the pilot light heats water, and so isn't
> >>wasted.
> >
> >Gas water heaters have to vent their gases outside the 
> >house.  Since you 
> >can't prevent some heat from going out with it, that sounds 
> >like another 
> >strike against energy efficiency in gas water heaters.
> >
> >>The situation for clothes dryers is similar. Gas dryers use 
> >more BTUs
> >>worth of energy to produce the same amount of heat (because they use
> >>fairly low efficiency burners), but those BTUs cost you less than
> >>electricity. If the dryer is not vented outside, it helps 
> >in winter but
> >>hinders when air conditioning. If the dryer is vented outside (most
> >>are), then gas dryers simply cost less but use more energy.
> >
> >I wish there was a cheap and energy-efficient way to get the 
> >moisture out of 
> >vented air.  My electric dryer has to be vented outside, 
> >lest the house turn 
> >into a sauna, and in the winter, you can see the heat being wasted.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you make it easy for people to create new sounds, you could have a whole
bunch available for download from a website.  Change it every so often, like
people do to cell phone rings.

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy LeMeur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: Silent Running (George Jetson)

Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
>What would people be willing to pay for a board that they could buy with a
>number of samples preloaded into it along with the ability to play those
>samples at varying rates depending on output from VSS?
>Board would need to be combined with a inexpensive power amplifier and
>speaker to actually produce engine sounds..

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>Try John's stereo audio inputs... Isn't it fun?

Hey Sheer!

You really gonna do it?

You already know that I think that this is a great idea.  :^D

I believe there is a wide market for this.

All kinds of toys could use it, the golf car market could be substantial.
(if they will buy bodies that look like Mustangs, VWs, and Rolls Royces they

will buy anything.)
Anything that spins could be made to work with an RPM pick up.
(Kid's PowerWheels)

Make it run off 12vdc and easy to jack into a sound system.

Top Ten Sounds?

1- George Jetson's car (I bet this would be number one with EVers)

2- Nitro burning top fuel dragster

3- Indy car

4- Jet aircraft

5- Helicopter

6- Curtis 1231  :^D

7- Model T Ford

8- Big-Bore Crotch Rocket

9- Locomotive (steam, w/whistle)

10- Briggs and Stratton Mini-bike

OK, some of these ain't the greatest, anybody else got some good ones?

Roy LeMeur  Seattle WA

My Electric Vehicle Pages:

Informational Electric Vehicle Links:

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Lesley:

I too was perusing those particular documents, and I too could not find
anything "official" banning an EV for simply being conductively charged.

Probably just another instance of a well-meaning yet clueless bureaucrat
trying to toe the official line to the best of their ability.

Instead of waking the sleeping beast I think I'll lay low. If it becomes an
issue I will take them on using their own documents.

I have a friend who's an ADA for LA County, and I have contacts in the AG's
office. As a redneck with a college education, computer, printer, and reams
of paper, I don't want to become anyone's personal worst nightmare but....

I really don't think anything will come of it. Probably all my fault for
even mentioning it. You know how it is. Never give any authorities any more
info about anything than they need for you to get your little piece of
official paper.

And you know what the biggest kicker is? I have a gas dryer.

> From: "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:12:16 +1300
> Marvin Campbell wrote:
>> So Edison finally came out and installed my TOU meter but
>> you're gonna LOVE this:
>> They won't allow me to charge my Soleq EVcort on that circuit.
> Another thing to think about, maybe...
> I just went poking around in Edison's web site (I wanted to know
> what TOU stood for, turns out to be Time Of Use if anyone else
> wants to know).  I found the documents that set out the details
> and conditions of the special rates (there are two special EV
> rates depending how much power you use, and the documents look
> identical except for the numbers).
> http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce114-12.pdf for TOU-EV1
> http://www.sce.com/NR/sc3/tm2/pdf/ce115-12.pdf for TOU-EV2
> Under "Applicability" it says "Applicable to charging of electric
> vehicles separately metered by the Utility [blah blah]".
> It does NOT say "electric vehicles with inductive charging".
> Special Condition #5 is the trouble spot. It says:
> "Customers taking this service under this schedule shall have no
> electrical interconnection beyond SCE's Point of Delivery between
> electrical loads eligible for service under this schedule and any
> other electrical loads".  In other words, only EVs are allowed to
> plug in to this circuit, no driers or anything else.
> Again, there is no mention of what sort of connector is to be used.
> In fact nowhere in the document does it specify any type of
> connector.
> Two thoughts spring to mind (see caveat below):
> 1) Perhaps condition 5 could be satisfied by offering to sign
> an additional document that says something to the effect that
> "I understand that I may not use this circuit for any appliances
> other than electric vehicles and I hereby undertake to observe
> this requirement" in combination with using a different type
> of connector to what your drier uses.
> 2) They have said that you can use the circuit to charge any
> electric vehicles owned by you, but they are preventing you
> from doing so by their insistence on using an inductive
> connector even though that is not specified in your agreement
> with them.
> If there is no other legal document that specifies the inductive
> connector, or allows them to specify it, maybe you could take
> them to court for failing to provide a service that they have
> agreed to provide.
> CAVEAT: I am not a lawyer. I am not an American.

And this certainly doesn't make you a bad fella. It's like David Bowie said:
"I'm scared of Americans". And it's not about the guns- I'm from Arkansas
and they wrap your first one with your birth cert when you leave the
hospital. No, I'm scared of people who believe what they see/read in the
media. (shudder)

And you must be one cool Kiwi to quote Mark Twain.

Thanks for your input. It's greatly appreciated.

J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA

1992 Soleq EVcort
2002 Toyota RAV4 EV (?)

David Franklin/Hollywood Toyota keeps telling me my RAV4 EV is on the way,
but it's been so long I'm beginning to think it's all just a cruel, sick
joke. Got a nice shiny charger in the garage, though.

> All I know
> about the American legal system is what I have seen on TV and
> on the Internet.  Seek advice from a real lawyer before doing
> anything like this.
> -- 
> Lesley Walker
> Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
> "The secret to getting ahead is getting started.  The secret to
> getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks
> into smaller manageable tasks, and simply starting on the
> first one."     --- Mark Twain
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Sorry but after compressing the hydrogen it will be a very expensive fuel.
Energy wise that is.  Might as well just compress air and run on that.  I
just hope that the Lithium, Flywheel or a Zinc/Al-air battery happens.  The
enery use will be much less going  to a battery. Of course if you are just
converting hydrogen from your PV and maybe have a windmill to compress it
might work.  The oil companies are just wishing that battery cars will go
away.  250 pounds of hightech batteries will be more than most people will
need to go a long way.  Fool cells are complicated enough to make another
another high profit maintainance stream for the auto companies.  The oil
companies are just itching to get another hight profit fuel and hydrogen is
very much like gasoline.  Better for us though.  It's safer and you can make
it yourself. Interesting to see what happens... Lawrence
Rhodes....Hewlett/Packard. Apple both started as Homebrew.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995

> Matthew Muelver wrote:
> >
> > On Thursday, December 5, 2002, at 12:25 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
> > > I was thinking may be one of these sitting on the back
> > > seat.  It would be cool to charge the pack while
> > > shopping at locations without public charging
> > > stations.
> >
> > Talk about a range extender!  Why not just plug your PFC-20 into it and
> > drive 'till the H2 runs out?  Actually, you'd be able to keep going on
> > "reserve" (your normal pack capacity) until you could find somewhere to
> > fill 'er up.  Of course, to do this you'd probably need more than one,
> > and probably a bigger H2 storage unit than what it comes with.
> >
> > > Or, if we could generate hydrogen at home and refuel
> > > the unit, we won't even need charging at work.  A
> > > 9-hour workday could put 8-9kWh back to the pack for
> > > the trip home.  Then, we recharge the pack and refuel
> > > the fuelcell with hydrogen at night.
> > >
> > > Ed Ang
> >
> > We could develop our own homebrew H2 refilling stations!  Can you see
> > the first cross-country fuel cell vehicle being an EV conversion
> > refueled at private residences on its way from one coast to the other?
> > Sounds like fun!  Isn't there a way to make H2 from water using solar
> > power?
> >
> > Matt
> > --
> > If you're reading this, chances are your either:
> > A. A Honda freak, just like me.
> >         '01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
> > B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
> >         Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
> > or
> > C. An EV freak, just like me!
> > :-)
> > <http://www.thewbstreetteam.com/click.php?id=5&memberID=387>
> A significant efficientcy gain would be to remove the boost inverter,
> and drive the PFC20 direct with the DC from the Fuel cell stack. Use the
> PFC20 as a DC/DC boost converter that boosts just high enough to charge
> the battery stack. Assume a 5 to %15 reduction in I2R losses in the Fuel
> cell DC rail.
> Sooner or later this stuff will find it's Way to my desk.... With my
> luck it will have a 14 page NDA taped to it.... keeping me from telling
> you all the Good stuff. Sigh...
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only thing that comes close to your request is an
zinc regenerator.  It plugs into the wall and
regenerates spent
zinc fuel cell oxide back into zinc.  The availability
of these is
very tenuous, but keep your eyes open.  Maybe in the

Anybody using Zinc air.  Seems a lot of tests are going on.  I am still
impressed by the 10 mile run on one charge 5 years ago.  Lawrence Rhodes...I
don't need big amps to do errands........................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you get credit on that line for the PV or do they just give you credit on
the house line?  Can you back the TOU with your PV.  What I am looking for
is getting credit at the 22 cent per kwh day rate and using at the .04 rate
at night.  Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 7:06 PM

> Marvin Campbell wrote:
> > So Edison finally came out and installed my TOU meter but you're gonna
> > this:
> >
> > They won't allow me to charge my Soleq EVcort on that circuit.
> >
> > That's right.
> >
> > They say conductive charging is not allowed within the guidelines of
> > EV charging program because, and I quote a Edison rep, "You might go
> > your dryer into that circuit and use that 4 per KWH power to do your
> > laundry, or something".
> In Northern California, I can't get PG&E to come out and install my TOU
> on the line that my solar panels are tied into...but they raced out here
to put
> the TOU meter on my EV charging line.  I just got a bill for that - one
> cost $10.65.  I charge between midnight and 7am when the rates are the
> lowest.
> Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Awhile back, Victor Tikhonov noticed that his PowerCheq modules were not keeping his batteries balanced correctly. Each successive battery in the string had just a bit lower voltage than the previous battery in the string. I've been looking at balancing systems for a consulting job, and I have been giving these sort of issues quite a bit of thought.

Last week, I was talking with Steve Ciciora and Rich Rudman about battery balancing, and I think we have solved the mystery of Victor's PowerCheq modules.

The key is that Victor has remotely mounted the PowerCheq modules using a wiring harness instead of directly connecting the leads to the battery terminals. It is a "common" mistake (excuse the pun) to use just one wire per battery in such harnesses. You must use (at least) two wires per battery. Otherwise, modular balancers (including both PowerCheqs and Rudman Regulators) won't work correctly.

The issue is the voltage drop on the "common" wire shared by two modules. When module "A" passes current through the common wire, the voltage drop upsets the voltage reading that the adjacent module is trying to make. You can't measure battery voltage accurately if there is current flowing through either of the measurement wires.

There are two ways of getting the system to work properly.

1) Relocate each of the modules to the battery it is regulating and connect the leads directly.

2) Re-wire the remote modules so that each module lead has it's own, separate, harness wire and fuse.

The fuse must be near the battery and must be rated for the full pack voltage, otherwise there is little point in installing fuses at all.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> When you are heating the house anyway, BTUs from the stove reduce
>> the BTUs from the furnace.  Your furnace is probably less than 100%
>> efficient, so it takes less energy to heat with the stove than with
>> the furnace (regardless of whether it is an electric or gas stove).

David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> While the efficiency of an EV usually trumps that of an ICE, it
> seems a lot less certain to me that the 100% ^local^ efficiency of
> resistive heat is better than the 92% ^local^ efficiency of a good
> furnace, when the entire cycle is considered.

I was just referring to the amount of energy that entered your home. The
burner on a gas stove has no vent, so 100% of the heat it produces goes
inside the home. Same for an electric stove; 100% of the heat it
produces goes inside. Thus the stove is more efficient, energy-wise,
than a 92% efficient furnace.

> Recall that the electricity generation and transmission process are
> a good bit less than 100% efficient.

Certainly true. However, I don't know the transmission efficiency for
the gas, electric, or other fuels being considered.

If you try to include the efficiency and pollution produced from
obtaining and transporting the fuel; operating the generating plant or
refinery; and then transporting it to your house -- the picture gets so
complicated that it becomes nearly impossible to come up with a definite

> I don't really know what losses are involved in transmitting natural
> gas -- but I really think it's probably [more] efficient to burn
> it in my furnace than to heat with electricity generated in, say,
> southern Ohio from natural gas.

Yes; it is probably more efficient. But efficiency may not be the most
important aspect. For example, pollution may matter more than
efficiency. If your electricity is generated from burning coal, and your
alternative is natural gas, then gas is cleaner (lower pollution). But
if your electricity is generated by hydro power, then it pollutes
> It would be interesting to calculate whether the "over unity" <g>
> effect of using a heat pump makes up for the generation and
> transmission losses.

It could. Heat pumps can have "efficiencies" of 200%-300%. I'd guess
that a 300% efficient furnace would more than compensate for a typical
power plant.
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Looking to minimize your impact on the environment?  Don't buy a car
> -- and especially don't buy anything made by DaimlerChrysler.

Chrysler just happens to make lots of big cars and trucks, and not many
small ones. If they had included GMC or Mack or Freightliner, etc. they
would have been at the bottom.
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> How about a pair of honking big diodes? Or even 4 of them (2 to allow
> charging with no cross current, 2 to allow discharge with no cross
> current - though these later 2 may need to be too big for sanity.)

This would work, too. The charging diodes wouldn't be very big at all.
The discharge diodes would be big, but not unreasonably so -- you can't
run at all that high a current for very long. You can use Schottkys,
which have half the drop and thus half the heat.
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> Sounds like it would be a good idea to have essentially 2 main
> contactors (or at least a Double Pole one). That way the strings
> would be in parallel only when the car was ON.

A possible concern is that nicads have such low internal resistance,
that if they were at different voltages at the end of a charge cycle,
simply switching them in parallel might lead to some alarming peak
current surges.

> How hard would it be to setup a solid-state switch for the
> charger?  Something that would hook the charger to each string
> alternately?  Every few seconds?  Minutes?  (Hey, pulsed charging!  but
> that's probably only good for lead-acid.)

I think I would just charge each parallel string with a resistor in
series with each (light bulbs, or perhaps a couple of blowers :-) That
way, they could run at slightly different charge voltages, and when you
stopped charging, the resistors/bulbs/fan motors would let them
gradually return to the same voltage before you closed that contactor to
parallel them. And, if something went wrong so the two strings wouldn't
equalize (shorted cell or whatever), the lights/fans would give you an
obvious warning.
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---

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