EV Digest 2467

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Affordable AC Finesse vs Bargain DC Guts (was Amps Volts-Kostov)
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) EVs on "Ride of Your Life"
        by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Cruise'n in JB's Ghia
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Silent Running and ....stuff <Long>
        by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: [EV1-CLUB] UNpopular Science
        by William Korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take? (long, but on topic :-)
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: VW porsche engine tranny question
        by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: VW porsche engine tranny question
        by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Grand Banks EV
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Gobs of 15V, 2A supplies for sale  (Works on DC?)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Gobs of 15V, 2A supplies for sale  (Works on DC?)
        by "Ashley Roll" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff
        by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
No problem, and you're right. AC systems for main stream normal OEM
cars are just that - boring reliable and powerful like V6 Toyota 
Camry - never breaks, but no one is excited about Camry engineering.
People take it for granted. So are my systems - for those who wants
to install them, forget about them and simply drive, not as much brag.
When was last time you've heard someone bragging about Camry?

It is not quite for drag racing, it's just for dependable 
transportation. And yes, 'course, comes with DC-DC, contactors, 
throttle pots and stuff, all you need to complete drive train.

Will see what Cliff Rassweiler will achieve on the oval track though.

So, happy DCing on the drag strip, I have no problems with that!

Victor

Paul G wrote:
> 
> But
> its really hard to beat a $2500 Raptor1200 and a $1600 ADC 9 inch
> motor when you want to rapidly depart.

Paul, I hear you. Rapidly depart where? Is it critical to outrun
everyone?

Can you define "rapidly" please? If you're 1/3 seconds slower on 
your way to run errands than 1200A Raptor and 9" give you, can you 
still survive? :-). That's not to say that Siemens systems are modest
or under powered, they just won't cut it for someone who thinks that, 
say, V6 Camry comfort and performance is not adequate for every 
day normal driving and take every passing by someone as personal 
insult. Siemens engineers could easily make the system more 
powerful (and they do for different apps like vans or buses), but 
settled for present numbers with well calculated reason - because
it's more than enough for vast majority of people they market it to.

Many people on the list are performance oriented and common 
sense standards no longer apply to them, 100 kW does not excite them
anymore. Nothing wrong with that, and perfectly OK with me.

There is a word "Reasonable", but by definition it does not apply
to sport, where everything must be extreme and for show off. 
And I have no problem with that either, enjoy Woodburn every year!

My 2 mm.

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> 
> Hello to All,
> 
> Victor wrote:
> 
> > >Can I do something (other than giving it away :-)) to make it happen?
> 
> >From Neon:
> 
> > >You have made AC much more affordable, thank you!  But at *killer* AC performance
> > levels are
> > >still not that affordable, sorry :- (....find an AC system with 187kW of power for
> > $6000
> 
> I echo Neon's compliments to Victor for his excellent street-affordable AC drive
> systems....However.....he's up against .6 MEGAWATTS! That's right folks, that's the 
>level
> of power the latest 'Zilla can crank out!

Everyone knows excitement of a racer. Whatever power he has is never
enough.

This is different application and different mind set and expectations.

My intention never was to compete on the strip. My car is very quick 
but presently heavy and will loose if I put it on the strip against 
purposely built drag car with tiny 15 Ah hawkers. I offer my systems
it to built a car to drive, not to race. Comparing with megawatt
Zillas is not very meaningful. I'd really rather have one of these:

http://www.metricmind.com/photo.htm , but it is personal choices.

And, thank you John for valid points! We all love you for what you are!

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- For those of you with the Fine Living Network on your cable system, the Fine Living Network has a show called "Ride of Your Life" which airs on Saturdays and Sundays. Show #208 is about alternative vehicles and features the EV1, RAV4 EV, and solar racers, as well as the hybrids Insight and Prius. Done in a very positive light. Check their website to find out when it will be on again. They run every show lots of times, so it should be shown at least for the next few weeks. Enjoy.

Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
member EAA - EVA/DC





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The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
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Hello to All,

John Bryan wrote:

>John may not consider me one who got Blue Meanied, since I built my car a couple of 
>years
before I saw the
>Blue Meanie, but I should mention what happened when I finally did see the 
>car....after
being totally Blue Meanied to the max, I went home
>and upgraded to the ADC 1227, 192 volts of Optimas, Auburn Grizzly controller....

This past Summer at our EV Awareness Day, I had the total thrill of driving (for the 
first
time, mind you) John Bryan's very cool, light weight, 192V Ghia...wow, what fun! Yes, 
I've
had a bit of influence on JB's car, but the way it's put together and the way it all
turned out, is all his doing.

Many have heard JB talk about how little ahrs his car consumes when being driven all
around for most all of his needs, and quite frankly, some may think he's exaggerating a
bit....I'm here to tell everyone, it's all true! The car is already cool, because it's 
a
Ghia! It's made even cooler with an abundant amount of low end grunt provided by the
stump-puller XP 1227 high torque 8 inch motor. Now, add to that, the high revving HP 
that
keeps coming out of that motor with a full 192V of Optimas...all this, in a car that
weighs maybe 100 lbs. more than Blue Meanie.

After the EV show near the river downtown, EVers caravanned up and over Portland's 
extinct
cinder cone, Mt. Tabor, on their way to east Portland where we were all congregating 
for a
special rib meal get-together. It's not a real mountain like Mt. Hood or Mt. St. 
Helens,
but it is an abrupt mound that is fun to drive up and around on. JB threw me the keys 
to
his pride and joy, and I finally had my chance to experience his wonderful EV first 
hand!
Driving uphill, the car would instantly squirt ahead at the slightest tap of the 
throttle,
and it took the corners flat and sure, but what was mind blowing, was seeing the 
Emeter's
readings on level ground at 40 mph or so....would you believe 18-22 amps? These kind of
low currents are on par with a 336V AC system, but this is at 192V and with a brushed
motor, good 'ol DC power!  It was as if the car was running on wind power or
something...pretty hard to get used to.

I'm flattered that JB considers his car one that was Blue Meanie inspired, after 
driving
his fun machine, that's quite a compliment.

See Ya....John Wayland


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Chuck Hursch wrote:

> How many of us have been out in the country, the supposed 
> wilderness, and then had to listen to snowmobile racket.  
> For goodness sakes, if it's going to be out there, consider 
> making it electric!  How about it Yellowstone types?

        I better respond to this since I'm a Yellowstone type!
I'll get to the snowmobiles, even electric ones, but first a
little background and a story or two, heck even a rant if I can
come up with one along the way.

        Realizing that Yellowstone is the only place around that 
I really care a great deal about, I recently sold my house with 
an 800 sq. ft. EV shop in Bend, Oregon and moved to Livingston, 
Montana where I'm now just 50 miles from Yellowstone Park. 
About my move:

>From the pen of Bob Rice:

> EVen with a Diseasel Jetta. Wash the soot off if I got back to 
> CT<g>! Anybody that has EVer towed anything with a Diseasel car, 
> yu know what I mean.

        I was using a diesel U-Haul for my move, with the EV Ghia
on a trailer. The truck cracked a fuel injector line and absolutely
covered the little feller on the trailer with fuel and soot as I
drove the first leg of my trip at night. I was able to get a new
truck in Moscow Idaho, but had to transfer everything from one
extremely tightly packed truck into another. My poor stuff!

        I know that there are stereotypes associated with Montana.
I can just hear John Wayland now, "Montana?....Montana?...why on 
earth..." ...But actually the stereotypes that we all (myself included) 
have about Montana would actually fit Bend, much better. I felt so 
threatened by the aggressive driving and rude 'big truck fellers' in 
Bend, that I took my EV signage off and slapped it on the wall of my 
shop. Every time I went out to drive I had to endure the most incredibly 
aggressive rudeness, and came close to being crashed into several times 
even while being a very defensive driver. The people there gave me real 
reasons to believe that I shouldn't leave my car in a parking lot with 
a sign like that on it. Just to try to set the scene a little, in one day 
I saw 5 of those Bigfoot style super huge monster trucks. They weren't all 
going to a circus or something, they were beaters, with crooked bodies, 
were being used as passenger cars, and all turned into different 
neighborhoods. When I took my EV to show at the local VW shop, the guy 
there hated it, just went on and on about how terrible EVs are. At least 
he would look at it, the mechanic in the shop would't even take a look. 
Also, as we all know already, the state penalizes people with EVs and 
hybrids at registration time with double rates. On TV they said for days
on end that the reason that we lacked the revenue to fix roads is that 
"too many people are driving little fuel efficient cars these days" 
I yelled "where? where are they?".

        Anyway, fast forward to historic Livingston. I found a charming
home in a lovely town, complete with 220 in the garage for the feller.
After visiting with people, showing the EV, and driving around the town
I decided very tentatively to put my sign back on. It's a magnetic sign
that says "Electric Car - Conversion by Bryan Electric Cars", from back
in the days when I actually believed that conversions would sell like
hot cakes. The sign hasn't triggered any weirdness, in fact everyone here
seems to really dig the car, and the whole concept of EVs.

        Today, I was going to take the car up the canyon for the first 
time. It's been in the 40's lately, nice and sunny even though it's been
windy today, so I was looking forward to the scenic drive. I passed through 
the beautiful town with it's ornate victorian mansions and scenic downtown 
with it's fancy old saloons along with new age bookstores, including the 
one where I had dropped off some Electrifying Times just this morning to a 
very excited owner, and numerous art galleries. Heading out of town, I 
started up the magnificent Yellowstone River Canyon.

        As the road leaves town the speed limit increases in stages.
First it goes from 25 to 35 mph. Then it increases to 45, and next to 55.
As I was climbing the canyon at 55-60 mph, with my 6+ year old Optimas, I
didn't realize that I was bucking a 50+ mph headwind hurling out of the
canyon after being funneled through the narrows. Suddenly, my magnetic sign
left the car, and in a most violent fashion I might add! I watched in the 
rear view mirror as it gained some altitude before heading off to the side 
of the road and into the ditch. It's a good thing the Vanagon behind me was 
a ways back or it might have just flew from my VW to theirs, and stuck! 
I made a quick mental note of the landmarks and continued on my way to where 
the speed limit increases to 70, and then my destination, an art and garden 
supply store situated under the towering wall of the canyon, in a wind 
shadow. What a beautiful place! They have numerous cute little cabins to 
rent, a friendly dog, and the most magnificent cat that I have seen in years. 
Not since John Wayland's cat Bob have I seen such a magnificent cat at this.

        I made my purchase, it came to $4, but she decided to give me some
of it for free, so $3. I had $21, and she didn't have any change, so I
gave her one dollar and said I would drop the other 2 by sometime. As we
were saying our good-byes (everyone in Montana is extremely friendly), I said
"take a look at this, I want to show you something that's a little different".
I opened the little feller's engine lid and she was very impressed! Thanks
to the Blue Meanie for inspiration, this car now occasionally inspires too,
although to a lesser extent. After answering all of her good questions and 
giving the tour, she told me to "forget about the two bux". Just then, the 
magnificent yellow cat came trotting up to the EV with a mouse it had just 
caught in the field.

        Ok, time to go find my sign. I headed back down the canyon looking for
my landmark. When I got out of the car and felt the gale force winds is when
I realized why the sign had flown off. I found it pretty easily, I sure wouldn't 
want to loose this sign now that I'm in a place where people seem to really
appreciate it!

        As for the snowmobiles in Yellowstone, I've skied with them around,
breathed of their fumes, and heard them, even from deep in the backcountry. You 
better believe that I've fought for the Clinton-era ban ever since it came under 
attack by the Bush administration. It's been reviewed by the public 5 or 6 times, 
an overwhelming majority (~89%) of the public wants them banned each time. But
the new ruling that just came down calls for an increase of their use. What
would the public have to do to get a simple thing like this accomplished? I
don't believe there is anything the public can do, short of military action, in
a country that is obviously controlled by industry. So, another solution may
be electric snowmobiles. I'm in the very earliest of negotiations with the
Park Service, who have an electric snowmobile project underway, and also a
private snowmobile manufacturer. I'll let the List know if anything promising
comes to pass.

        Anyway, with Evercels, I should have the range to travel to the park
and back on a single charge, the ability to leave the car at trailheads 
partially discharged for extended periods, and the ability to do this at the 
cold temperatures that are common in the high elevations of the park.

Seeya,
John
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Paul G wrote:
 But
 its really hard to beat a $2500 Raptor1200 and a $1600 ADC 9 inch
 motor when you want to rapidly depart.
Victor wrote:
Paul, I hear you. Rapidly depart where? Is it critical to outrun
everyone?
That is perfectly fair question. I'm going exactly where I am going, fast or slow - but clearly that's not an answer. I have no tickets on my record (2 speeding tickets ever, last one over 10 years ago), so I don't *drive* fast. But I do tend to leave a light pretty quick. When my (now electric) Buggy was gas powered I could accelerate from 0-25 getting across an intersection (with great care, I could also get tyre smoke or a wheelstand if I wasn't spot on the throttle and clutch).

Can you define "rapidly" please? If you're 1/3 seconds slower on
your way to run errands than 1200A Raptor and 9" give you, can you
still survive? :-).
In fact I don't own either an ADC 9 inch or a Raptor 1200 (but do own a couple of Prestolite motors that could take a Raptor 1200). My Buggy is the faster of my EVs, 400 amps at 120 volts - but only 1420lbs. This gives it about 1/2 the power per pound as John's Blue Meanie. It puts it at just better than 13.5kg per kilowatt (using theoretical Kw, nominal voltage times controller amps - ignoring battery sag and motor/controller losses). Roughly, I define worse than 15kg per kilowatt as unacceptable performance for custom vehicles and worse than 20kg per kilowatt as unacceptable when I'm driving some generic stock vehicle that doesn't get me attention (so a stock Geo Metro is right at the point of touching "not acceptable", IMHO).

That's not to say that Siemens systems are modest
or under powered, they just won't cut it for someone who thinks that,
say, V6 Camry comfort and performance is not adequate for every
day normal driving and take every passing by someone as personal
insult. Siemens engineers could easily make the system more
powerful (and they do for different apps like vans or buses), but
settled for present numbers with well calculated reason - because
it's more than enough for vast majority of people they market it to.
I don't know about a V6 Camry, never driven one. Prius performance (about 16.4kg per kilowatt) in a custom vehicle would be marginal, though it works good for a stocker (plus the CVT makes for better than expected higher speed acceleration). So, I will look at the numbers. If I understand the excellent Siemens offerings you have available its supposed to be limited to 280 amps at up to 360 volts. So, I see this as viable for a vehicle up to about 1500kg (if I'm taking the time to tear a vehicle apart and put it back together I'm not leaving it so stock in appearance as to not be noticed).

On this note, and how easy it would be to hide 26ah Genesis batteries around my Buggy, I've thought about going with an AC system. You have a little motor that if mounted upside down (water in and out on bottom) could look real good out back (with a little paint and polish detail). I could hide a small radiator (heater core) under the car between the center batteries. I *think* I could put the control box under the back of the car, where the Curtis 1221b is now (new steel frame for body support to replace the wood one there now). That would get the buggy down to around 10kg per kilowatt (more battery framing and water cooling add some question marks, I may be able to get down to 9kg per - I only expect I can fit 26 of the small Genesis batteries). But the downside to a total re-conversion is that I'm buying everything again and that costs quite a bit (not the work - as I would enjoy that part). On the flip side, I could just stuff a DCP1200 into it and get below 5.5kg per kilowatt (total cost, about $2500).

Many people on the list are performance oriented and common
sense standards no longer apply to them, 100 kW does not excite them
anymore. Nothing wrong with that, and perfectly OK with me.
Well then I think you do understand, even if you haven't realized it yet. Very few new cars have less than 100kw in the USA. If I spending my time customizing a car (and how can you not, when your building an EV) I don't want to be outrun by a new Ford Focus or Dodge Neon. I *want* to be able to take it up a notch, and since the common public perception is that EVs are slow - it *does* makes sense to be able to dispel that myth.

There is a word "Reasonable", but by definition it does not apply
to sport, where everything must be extreme and for show off.
And I have no problem with that either, enjoy Woodburn every year!
Now I *know* you are understanding the EV sport :-) I guess I'm neck deep in custom autos since I was 15 years old, but its a sport with a practical outcome - you drive the results to the same places you would drive any other car. But you do it with a fun flair, people notice and show thumbs up, or wave, or just stare and smile. It may be still just getting from point A to point B, but its making the drive a positive part of the trip - instead of time wasted in traffic trying to get where you need to go.

Neon

P.S. - hopefully I did well with my metric conversions. I generally work in pounds and horsepower, but do respect the fact that you prefer to work in kilograms and kilowatts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >I am specifically interested in the 924S and the VW rabbit (diesel).
> 
> There is no interchangeability between the 924 and the Rabbit.  The Rabbit 
> used a front engine, front wheel drive transaxle.  The Porsche was a front 
> engine, rear wheel drive car with a transaxle mounted in the rear.  The 
> clutch was mounted with the transaxle.
> 

First off the clutch on the 924 is mounted on the engine end of the
torque tube.  I wish it was on the transmission end, it would make it
easier to mount an electric motor directly to the tranny.

Do you know for a fact that the bolt pattern is different or are you
just guessing because of the different layout of the engine
transmissions?  

Where the engines are in the original cars is irrelevant to my
application.  I know the first 924 was built using as many off the shelf
VW/Audi parts as possible including the engine.  I also know that the
transmissions in the 924S/931/944 are Audi based 5 speeds, but that
doesn't say anything about the front bellhousing which might be unique
to the 924S/931/944

I just want to know if a diesel rabbit engine will bolt up to the 924S
front bellhousing?  This would greatly simplify design for me since
otherwise I have to cut the bellhousing off of the rabbit transmission.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>My new question is do all of the water cooled VWs have the same bolt
>pattern and do the water cooled Porsches have the same one?  I know the
>early 924's used VW engines and I would guess that the 944s and 924S'
>probably share this same bolt pattern.
>
>I am specifically interested in the 924S and the VW rabbit (diesel).

FWIW I think I just found the answer to half of my question.  I found a
site that says that all of the VW watercooled inline 4 engines use the
same bolt pattern and the same accessory mounts.

So if they didn't change the bolt pattern between the early 924 and the
later 924S, it should work for me.
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I went to the site http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html and read
there stuff and I hate to say it but they made a lot of sense.  They have
made a lot of fine ev's and now feel ( my gut feeling) that putting a fine
vehicle out with bats that will give the mileage people say they need will
not be enough .  To bad when clear heads don't see any hope.  There are
going to have to be a lot more conversions on the road before any company
takes a chance I think. I though you ( Jerry) were going to start some
little ev car comp?  They sound like they would sell the parts to you .  To
me having a built from the ground up ev just means not having to deal with
the "pay that for an used car" mind set .  You have a lot of work already
done when you used car ,You could get a nice Porsche 911 or 914 body  1 to 5
k and put all that AC drive in there and have about the same thing .  Look
how slow the EValbum is growing , one car a month>?  I got to say its the
strangest thing I've ever experienced .  Like if somebody made one of those
over unity generators that worked and then nobody wanted them because they
took 5 years to pay for them self's .  "People" we have no idea how little
they care .  " I just wouldn't be happy with out ........." and so they keep
driving there gas burners and won't even try an EV till it can do what there
gas car can and cost less that $20k  .  I am doing a conversion for a guy
now and Saturday his friend came buy to see it . This is a light car with13
bat 156v  with DCP 1200 controller .  I have never rode in any thing like
this and was just finishing up wiring the controller when he came. So we
took the first ride together him working the go pedal (by hand ) and me
steering .  This thing ran like a bat out of hell . If you have never
experienced 156v 1200 amps you are in for a thrill .  Of course I've been
living in the past with 120v 400 amp Curtis with over 3000 lbs cars .  When
I got out I was not the same person I was before . My getting from point a
to point b has been replaced with " I got to have me one of these even if it
only goes 20 miles on a charge"  I know that people all say they want the
distance and 50 miles is the least they'll take .  I am now seeing what they
really get excited about is that neck snapping pickup .  This guy has a 911
with a blown motor and after that little ride around the block he was
jumping around like a wild monkey ( I was to )  now if it had been a 20 golf
cart with 400amp Curtis he would not have been imprested ( we drove the ev
Mazda before the test riding in his friends car ) .   Here is a funny though
EV's were replaced by gas cars as they were faster now 100 years later EV's
come back and replace the gas cars because they are faster (I haven't had a
lot of experance with fast cars so I'm not expert).
   Well as we were racing around the neighbor hood I started to smell
something and we pull over and the 9 " ge motor "that I got the super deal
on " it brushes are hot and I mean hot . The motor is not even warm but the
brushes are so hot that there's no question something is wrong . Slow drove
back and the next day I'm looking at them and there's burn marks ect .  When
I spun the motor over I though there was a lot of sparking going on . This
motor looked new when I got it like no ware on the com. I'm turning it over
slow by hand and I see the brush move up and down at one point .  If its
spun with electric you wouldn't see it but by slow turning it by hand  there
it is (this is probable what any one should do when buying a used motor) .
I don't know if it was bad when I got it or if this little joy ride without
a extra fan hooked up( it has a  setup for extra fan which I don't have
yet ) cooked it .  When I first hooded it up and spun it I though that there
were a lot of sparks coming from the brushes . Even if I have to have it
redone It was still a deal (wish I could drive to net gains shop and save
the shipping ) . Maybe I'll just tell him he must buy a new motor and stop
trying to build them for nothing out of parts that fall from the sky .  Some
day I hope to come see you and your projects but as we both just have EV's
that 150 miles is a little far.
Steve Clunn
jFort Pierce Florida.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.


> On 9 Dec 2002 at 9:58, 1sclunn wrote:
>
> > Where can I see this "sunrise"
>
> Not a lot of detail, but here's a plain vanilla photo:
>
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sunrise_ev/
>
> No idea what this group is all about; it has all of 2 members.  The
archives
> (with exactly one message) are closed and membership restricted.  Maybe
it's
> one of Bruce Parmentier's specialty EV groups.  Or did you start this one,
> Jerry?
>
> Simililar pic here with some interesting comments:
>
> http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html
>
> The Sunrise has made over 300 miles on a charge (stripped down to the
barest
> minimum mass).  That was in a Tour de Sol (around 1996, I think; I could
> look it up but don't want to take time right now).  A prototype also drove
> from New York to Boston on a single charge, with James Worden behind the
> wheel, and still had energy left over.  That was with a NiMH battery
> (probably hand-selected modules too).  But I have no doubt that it could
> easily achieve a usable range of 100 miles with nicads.
>
> It's also no minicar.  The Sunrise is about the size of a Ford Taurus, and
> has plenty of room for 4 adults.  That's probably a plus for most
Americans,
> though I personally prefer small hatchbacks.
>
> The Sunrise is a remarkable EV,  in many ways a much more sophisticated
> design than the EV-1.  It shows what can be done when smart engineers who
> understand electric vehicle design are given an appropriate environment
and
> sufficient resources.  I would love to see it put into production, and the
> thought of one in my driveway just about makes my eyes drool.
>
> A $55k price brings it closer, but -- well, I won't say no, but I can't
say
> yes.  I work for a nonprofit organization, and $55k is a lot of paychecks.
> I may have to wait for the second round when the price drops to $35k -- if
> it ever does.
>
>
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> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi:

I own a 1965 36' Grand Banks that I want to convert to electric/hybrid.
Replacing the 1965 engines with multiple small generators would clean-up the
engine room and 36 feet of boat has ample room for batteries.  In removing
2000 lbs of engine will balance out with the weight of the generators.

The Grand Banks 36 is not affected by weight changes by 4 tons of batteries.

My vision is running in the harbor under electric power and running for
hours in silence.  Starting the generators to charge the batteries and
stopping them when returning to harbor.  It will be the first (to my
knowledge) of an electric Grand Banks.
A twin screw is ideal for conversion because no "waste" of energy is
required in docking as is needed with a single screw.

It currently has two 1965 120 hp Ford Lemans Diesels.
Torque: 300 lbs
Rotation CCW
Weight 1000 lbs
4 blade 18" dia propellers

The cruising RPM on the Engines is 1650, the transmission set is as fallows
Port Ratio: 2.1:1
Starboard Ratio: 1.91:1  and reversing
contra-rotating propellers is necessary for twin screws.

If anyone is in the SF Bay area, I will gladly take you on a cruise.
Partner wanted.
Chad
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Ciciora wrote:
> They are switchers.
> You tell me if you think they can be used at D.C. :-)  I took one
> apart, and reversed part of the schematic.
> 
> Starts off with a 3A, 250V glass fuse, then a 3.15A, 250V ceramic
> fuse, with slots routed in the PCB between the leads. Interesting,
> don't know why two different fuses in series.

Since it is designed for 120vac (US) and 240vac (Europe), they had to
get it to pass two different safety regulatory agencies (UL for the US,
and CE for Europe). They have different standards. I'll bet one fuse
(the glass one) is only UL listed, and the other (ceramic fuse) is only
CE listed. They could have found one fuse that was both UL and CE, but
I'll bet they didn't think of it at the time.

> There is a 0.33uF, 250V ac cap across the lines.

If that capacitor is marked "X", "X1, or "X2" type and has the UL and CE
marks, then it is certified as being able to withstand some pretty
extreme overvoltage without shorting, exploding, catching fire, or doing
anything else dangerous no matter what the AC line voltage does. This
typically means it will withstand 1000 volts DC or more.

> Then through three inductors, some more caps, and a diode
> bridge. Then a 400VDC, 100uF cap.

If the capacitor is 400vdc, then it's wired as a voltage doubler, not a
bridge. It won't work on DC. You won't hurt anything to try it, though.

To have any chance of working on DC, set the supply for 240vac
operation. There is probably a jumper or switch or something. Now it
will work on DC, but it may require 200vdc or more to start, and 300vdc
for full output.

> Also, I don't think I'd trust those fuses at DC, either.

No, but there are ceramic fuses in the same size case that are DC rated.

> There are some small caps that I can only assume are for line
> filtering. For my own education (which is why I take things apart)
> I'd like to know what they do.

Probably "Y", "Y1" or "Y2" type capacitors, from each side of the AC
input to ground. Their purpose is to filter out RF interference from the
switching supply, so it won't interfere with radios or TVs. They have
even higher voltage ratings that the X caps, since they have to
withstand as much as 6000 volts during a lightning strike on the AC
line.

Thanks for the additional information!
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,

I'm not sure that this will be a voltage doubling setup..

If it is a bridge rectifier, the output would be sqrt(2) * Vin wouldn't it?
This works out at about 340V when working on a 240V line. 400V would be a
reasonable cap rating to use there to take into account line voltage
variations (+/-10%?) and spikes..

I'm not sure about these particular units (haven't really been following the
thread) but the switches that I've seen before that are "universal" don't
have or need a input voltage selector switch. The switcher is able to
provide the correct voltage from the entire voltage range specified on the
unit.

These units sound like they may be reasonable quality - sometimes the really
cheap units that are "rated" for 240V don't really have a high enough
voltage rated main cap.. They are really designed for 110V operation but
will "just work" on 240V.. But the life time of the main cap is drastically
reduced so they die quickly because they want to save the $0.05 for the
higher voltage caps..

Also I agree about the fuse ratings. They should probably be replaced by a
DC rated fuse if you are going to run them from DC.

Cheers,
Ash.

---
Ashley Roll
Digital Nemesis Pty Ltd
www.digitalnemesis.com
Mobile: +61 (0)417 705 718




> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 December 2002 7:24 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Gobs of 15V, 2A supplies for sale (Works on DC?)
> > Then through three inductors, some more caps, and a diode
> > bridge. Then a 400VDC, 100uF cap.
>
> If the capacitor is 400vdc, then it's wired as a voltage
> doubler, not a
> bridge. It won't work on DC. You won't hurt anything to try
> it, though.
>
> To have any chance of working on DC, set the supply for 240vac
> operation. There is probably a jumper or switch or something. Now it
> will work on DC, but it may require 200vdc or more to start,
> and 300vdc
> for full output.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wrote this before reading John's post .  see how easy it is to be fooled
by a web site. Thanks for the inside info John .From what you say I see why
they have given up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff


> I went to the site http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html and read
> there stuff and I hate to say it but they made a lot of sense.  They have
> made a lot of fine ev's and now feel ( my gut feeling) that putting a fine
> vehicle out with bats that will give the mileage people say they need will
> not be enough .  To bad when clear heads don't see any hope.  There are
> going to have to be a lot more conversions on the road before any company
> takes a chance I think. I though you ( Jerry) were going to start some
> little ev car comp?  They sound like they would sell the parts to you .
To
> me having a built from the ground up ev just means not having to deal with
> the "pay that for an used car" mind set .  You have a lot of work already
> done when you used car ,You could get a nice Porsche 911 or 914 body  1 to
5
> k and put all that AC drive in there and have about the same thing .  Look
> how slow the EValbum is growing , one car a month>?  I got to say its the
> strangest thing I've ever experienced .  Like if somebody made one of
those
> over unity generators that worked and then nobody wanted them because they
> took 5 years to pay for them self's .  "People" we have no idea how little
> they care .  " I just wouldn't be happy with out ........." and so they
keep
> driving there gas burners and won't even try an EV till it can do what
there
> gas car can and cost less that $20k  .  I am doing a conversion for a guy
> now and Saturday his friend came buy to see it . This is a light car
with13
> bat 156v  with DCP 1200 controller .  I have never rode in any thing like
> this and was just finishing up wiring the controller when he came. So we
> took the first ride together him working the go pedal (by hand ) and me
> steering .  This thing ran like a bat out of hell . If you have never
> experienced 156v 1200 amps you are in for a thrill .  Of course I've been
> living in the past with 120v 400 amp Curtis with over 3000 lbs cars .
When
> I got out I was not the same person I was before . My getting from point a
> to point b has been replaced with " I got to have me one of these even if
it
> only goes 20 miles on a charge"  I know that people all say they want the
> distance and 50 miles is the least they'll take .  I am now seeing what
they
> really get excited about is that neck snapping pickup .  This guy has a
911
> with a blown motor and after that little ride around the block he was
> jumping around like a wild monkey ( I was to )  now if it had been a 20
golf
> cart with 400amp Curtis he would not have been imprested ( we drove the ev
> Mazda before the test riding in his friends car ) .   Here is a funny
though
> EV's were replaced by gas cars as they were faster now 100 years later
EV's
> come back and replace the gas cars because they are faster (I haven't had
a
> lot of experance with fast cars so I'm not expert).
>    Well as we were racing around the neighbor hood I started to smell
> something and we pull over and the 9 " ge motor "that I got the super deal
> on " it brushes are hot and I mean hot . The motor is not even warm but
the
> brushes are so hot that there's no question something is wrong . Slow
drove
> back and the next day I'm looking at them and there's burn marks ect .
When
> I spun the motor over I though there was a lot of sparking going on . This
> motor looked new when I got it like no ware on the com. I'm turning it
over
> slow by hand and I see the brush move up and down at one point .  If its
> spun with electric you wouldn't see it but by slow turning it by hand
there
> it is (this is probable what any one should do when buying a used motor) .
> I don't know if it was bad when I got it or if this little joy ride
without
> a extra fan hooked up( it has a  setup for extra fan which I don't have
> yet ) cooked it .  When I first hooded it up and spun it I though that
there
> were a lot of sparks coming from the brushes . Even if I have to have it
> redone It was still a deal (wish I could drive to net gains shop and save
> the shipping ) . Maybe I'll just tell him he must buy a new motor and stop
> trying to build them for nothing out of parts that fall from the sky .
Some
> day I hope to come see you and your projects but as we both just have EV's
> that 150 miles is a little far.
> Steve Clunn
> jFort Pierce Florida.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise? the Perfect High-Dollar EV could be built.
>
>
> > On 9 Dec 2002 at 9:58, 1sclunn wrote:
> >
> > > Where can I see this "sunrise"
> >
> > Not a lot of detail, but here's a plain vanilla photo:
> >
> > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sunrise_ev/
> >
> > No idea what this group is all about; it has all of 2 members.  The
> archives
> > (with exactly one message) are closed and membership restricted.  Maybe
> it's
> > one of Bruce Parmentier's specialty EV groups.  Or did you start this
one,
> > Jerry?
> >
> > Simililar pic here with some interesting comments:
> >
> > http://www.solectria.com/products/accomp.html
> >
> > The Sunrise has made over 300 miles on a charge (stripped down to the
> barest
> > minimum mass).  That was in a Tour de Sol (around 1996, I think; I could
> > look it up but don't want to take time right now).  A prototype also
drove
> > from New York to Boston on a single charge, with James Worden behind the
> > wheel, and still had energy left over.  That was with a NiMH battery
> > (probably hand-selected modules too).  But I have no doubt that it could
> > easily achieve a usable range of 100 miles with nicads.
> >
> > It's also no minicar.  The Sunrise is about the size of a Ford Taurus,
and
> > has plenty of room for 4 adults.  That's probably a plus for most
> Americans,
> > though I personally prefer small hatchbacks.
> >
> > The Sunrise is a remarkable EV,  in many ways a much more sophisticated
> > design than the EV-1.  It shows what can be done when smart engineers
who
> > understand electric vehicle design are given an appropriate environment
> and
> > sufficient resources.  I would love to see it put into production, and
the
> > thought of one in my driveway just about makes my eyes drool.
> >
> > A $55k price brings it closer, but -- well, I won't say no, but I can't
> say
> > yes.  I work for a nonprofit organization, and $55k is a lot of
paychecks.
> > I may have to wait for the second round when the price drops to $35k --
if
> > it ever does.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---

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