EV Digest 2480
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: SAFT NiCads (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: L91-4003, Max RPM's?
by "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging, (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: L91-4003, Max RPM's?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "Light Dimmer" charger
by "Joseph Miller"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Amtrak Test Train Derailed OT
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Woodburn?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Water drag eats ahs
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Water drag eats ahs, tire-d theme, too.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: liquid heater tanks
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: SAFT NiCads (was: Coolant pump choice?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Donor vehicle.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) OT mileage computers Re: Water drag eats ahs
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) electric VW Pickup for sale
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OT mileage computers Re: Water drag eats ahs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: SAFT NiCads, Charging
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, in case you haven't considered, they are only rated for 120 watts
per kg at 13.2kg, or ~264A. But they are an energy battery, not power.
Sized just about right for a 3 phase drive with 400A IGBTs, (280A RMS)
like a Solectria Force. If your existing system draws a lot more current
from the batteries, you may want to look into this (I have heard of it
but haven't actually driven a Saft NiCad car. Also Joe Smalleys tests
indicate that more power is available, but at 300A the voltage is
10-10.5V per 2 modules. I don't know how any of this affects life, either.
I hope the deep link works:
http://www.saftamerica.com/automotive/uk/index.htm
Seth
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> At 05:05 AM 12/13/02, you wrote:
> >Out of curiosity, are you getting Saft 100Ah modules or something different?
>
> That is the plan. When all the dust settles (and the bill is paid)
> the Wabbit should have the same performance, but should go 70 miles, or
> perhaps more. Also, the batteries will last virtually forever. I should
> never have to replace a battery again.
>
> I wish they were cheaper, however. =^O
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube wrote<snip>
> This motor is too small to use in a Rabbit conversion. It does
not
> have the continuous HP needed to push the car down the road at a steady
> speed. You will probably burn up the armature windings or perhaps the
field
> windings.
With much of Bob Rice's help I bought the conversion from someone in DE who
had been using it for many years with the 6.7" with 72 volts and a Curtis
48-71 volt 400 amp controller. But I think he never drove it on the highway
and only about 10 miles a day in a much liesurly fashion. A couple hours of
work and it will be able to drive so since it's all together already i'm
going to try it out but I do have my dreams set on a Warp8 and 156volts of
say optima 31's with my raptor 600 in between though i'm sure the 600 is too
weak to use with optimas in some peoples opinion but it's what I have and
i'm never gonna race it. But those are just flights of fancy and i'll end up
somewhere in between..
Mark Hastings..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> At 4:08 PM -0700 12/14/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > AGM batteries and these flooded NiCads have something in
> >common; the negative plate does not charge as well as the positive
> >plate. This means that when the voltage comes up at the end of the
> >charge, and the battery appears "full" the positive plate is
> >charged, but the negative plate is NOT fully charged. You must then
> >push in an over charge to complete the charge on the negative plate.
>
> Thanks Bill,
>
> Battery chemistry is not my strong point, but I'm wondering is there
> some external way to determine if the negative plate is fully
> charged, Voltage, Impedance or some such?
An electrochemist will put a third reference electrode in the cell's
electrolyte, and measure the voltage between it and the negative plate.
This voltage is called the "half-cell potential. The material for the
third electrode is carefully chosen so it does not create its own half
cell potential.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where I work, if you want something to look good and be on time, you get a
technician to do it. They go find an engineer to help them to make it work.
Documentation falls by the wayside but it is on time, looks good and works.
Overtime is no problem.
If you want something documented for someone else to copy, have the engineer
to do it. The paperwork comes first and then he has the technician build it
to print usually with a couple go arounds before it works. Documentation is
right but the schedule usually gets compromised because the prints are not
totally 100% correct on the first (or second) draft.
Technicians have a slightly lower base rate but they get time and a half for
overtime. Engineers don't get overtime. Each group has a different union
that have different contracts.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
> Currently at Ametek I give many design engineering projects to the
> technicians. They do
> a great job and enjoy the break from routine work. I think the key to
> this monologue is that
> the technicians and engineers I work with do so as equals (although I do
> get paid more:-).
> Is this fair? I don't know, but the management sets the pay scale, not
> me. Should I be envious of
> the marketing manager that makes more than me? The answer is no, I
> wouldn't want his job and
> would be unhappy and less productive than him doing it. You can be
> happy with your job and if
> not, aspire to something you want, regardless of the monetary value.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is the type of motor that I run on the Killacycle. I run two,
> actually. I belive this motor is rated at 7,000 RPM.
7000 rpm is a good upper limit with no modifications. The Advanced DC
performance curves go to 7400 rpm with this motor.
> This motor is too small to use in a Rabbit conversion. It does not
> have the continuous HP needed to push the car down the road at a
> steady speed. You will probably burn up the armature windings or
> perhaps the field windings.
I have the L91-4003 in my Renault LeCar (132v pack, Curtis 1231C
controller, about 2300 lbs with batteries). Accelleration is fairly
good, though it's no sports car. I don't have any problems doing 80 mph,
and the batteries will be dead before the motor overheats. So, I
wouldn't say this motor is inadequate for a Rabbit.
Now, this motor would be a problem if I had a heavy flooded battery
pack; the extra weight would increase the horsepower needed, and the
extra range would allow time for the motor to overheat.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Dec 2002 at 16:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You must gas off some water to bring the
> negative plate up to full charge.
This is an interesting evaluation of the situation, and the first time I've
heard that the positive and negative electrodes of a lead cell could
actually be at different "states of charge." I'd be interested in reading
Nawaz's comments on this, if he has time.
Other than charging time limitations, is there any reason that one couldn't
perform this overcharge at a lower current? That would slow down the
gassing and allow the recombination to keep up with it -- thus no venting.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to thank all for posting a response to the charge rate question.
What is a "Light Dimmer" charger? If I pop the case open, I will find a triac
chopper inside? If so, it might explain why this device is so touchy to set
the finishing voltage for.
Could somebody that has poked around inside a Russco charger tell me in
general terms how it works? And why it blows a fuse if it is not connected to
a load?
thanks
Joe
"White Rabbit" `81 Rabbit Pickup
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/390.html
Joe Miller KI7WV
jmiller_at_eyes_dot_arizona_dot_edu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
A tad off topic, I know, but a bit of sardonic RR humor. From the guyz
that brought ya the Silverado Crank pix.
> Charles J. French . wrote:
> << Today (Saturday) at approximately 9:50 AM an eastbound Amtrak Test
Train
> derailed at Lyons, NY on the CSX main line at MP 237.5. The train was
> testing the 1400 series box cars that have been prone to derailing and
have
> been restricted to 60 mph. All 9 cars derailed >>
>
> Charlie, since every car derailed, does that mean the test is to be
> considered an unqualified success??? (laughs)
>
> - John
>
> Off trak, on Trak
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Is the 2003 Woodburn Drags gunna run Labor Day Weekend, again?? If not ,
when? Gotta put in for vacation for it again.
Seeya there?
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took off Sat morning for the SJEAA meeting at 9am. I take Highway
101 South and cruise at 55 mph which draws about 100ahs off my 132
VDC US145 pack.
It had rained the night before, but had stopped on this morning.
There was still water on the road, and gusty winds try to toss my
EV from side to side.
On my trip, the joy of an EV shows when I can feel the road to the
point of knowing when their is a slight down or up hill (something
that is lost on an SUV that only shows its fuel consumption at the
station).
[Since Automakers are taking good ideas from EVs to add to their ICE
hybrids, rather than 1.5 mpg increase, wouldn't it be better to
add a digital mpg read-out in the dash cluster?]
My 22.6 mile trip usually uses 2.1 ahrs per mile or about 48ahs. But
today, my Cruising Control Emeter read -67.7 ahs down. This means I
used 3 ahs per mile. Where did all the drag come from?
Possibly a frontal wind, but I was tossed around so much from side
winds and did not feel any frontal winds.
When I drove through pools of standing water on the highway, that is
where I felt not only the loss of traction (hydroplaning) but a slow
down when passing through.
Could it be that these tires are hanging on to the water and causing
a drag (which uses more power)?
Our Chapter had already secured permission to use the 120VAC outlets
at our meeting place. So, I plugged into two of them. My two Zivan K2
120VAC chargers pushed 20 DC amps into my pack.
But also obtained permission to plug into a 240VAC source, and feed
it to my PFC-50. I dialed in 30 amps. This gave me an easy 50 amps
into my pack. My pack should be recharged in about 1.5 hours. Since
the meeting is usually 2 hours, that leaves plenty of fat for 'just
incase' issues.
Our meeting was lively and informative. Afterward, I checked the
cords
and they were cold (the charge was done). My Zivans had turned off,
and the PFC-50 was doing a 4 amp finishing charge. My Emeter was now
reading +18ahs (the pack was charged and was pushing extra ahs into
the pack to equalize the cells).
When disconnecting and coiling cords, the manager had told me
the boss had come by and was confused why so may (3) cords
were runing to a car. Totally EV native, she exclaimed that
all of them were to save money.
All this happened unbeknownest to me. The manager had smoothed
her feathers and calmed her down. I thanked him and reminded
hime that if the situation ever needed, that he should tell
us, and we will unplug.
But I also let know know 3 cords only means I am done quicker
than 1 cord. It still is the same power and cost (~70ah
x 150VDC ~ 10kw @ $.10 pkwh =) $1 .
My trip home was the same route and speed as before but it was now
raining (nice of the weather to hold off until the meeting was over).
When I pulled in to home, I had the same mileage and higher than
normal ah readings.
Truly, it isn't so much pushing a head wind as added drag from the
wet road.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 14/12/02 23:33:35 GMT Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> It is all a compromise. You must gas off some water to bring the
> negative plate up to full charge. There is no real choice. If you don't do
> it, you will end up with low capacity batteries that have a full supply of
> water. If you do it too much, you will prematurely dry out the batteries
> that have good paste on the plates. If you do it just right, like Optima
> suggests, you will get the maximum number of cycles at full capacity.
> Basically, you will run out of water at about the same time the paste is
shot.
I've had a lot of talks with electrochemists after I started having problems
with the Optimas in my Scirocco. In my case the NG3 algorithm was the cause.
Most recommended algorithms are designed as 'safe' methods of getting a
battery charged in the shortest time. The 2 amp for 1 hour after current has
tapered below 1 amp is a 'fast' equalise, but it does have it's problems. If
the batteries are hot then most of the equalise energy goes into further
heating. It also does not take into account the depth of discharge.
Equalising after driving just a couple of miles is excessive. Hawker
recognise this issue with their adaptive algorithm where time in CV and
equalise is based on DOD as estimated by time in CC. It was interesting to
note that Johnson Controls' Optima experts suggested I use this algorithm to
help deal with my problem (Electrofit Zapi were very unhelpful in trying
this). They also agreed that staying in the constant voltage phase after the
current had tapered below 1 amp was an effective (possibly superior) equalise
method. Hawker recommend extended periods at elevated voltage (14.7vpb temp.
comp.) to help balance long strings.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I may have missed somthing . Do you now have the evercell (miss spelled ?)
in your bird> ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:16 PM
Subject: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
> Since nobody seems to be interested in buying 13 Optima YT's for $1000,
I'm
> going to break the pack up and sell individual batteries.
> $80 each. Since shipping is way too expensive, I'll arrange to meet
buyers
> in the Everett/Seattle area.
> These are from my Sparrow and will no longer quite get me to
> work. Probably around 85% capacity left in them.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You didn't say if and what the load was when you took the voltage readings.
here is how I kind of figure things (saw this years ago in Home Power ) .
first I pick a load which is close to a C1 ( what I think would draw the bat
down in 1 hour ) for my golf cart bats that's 100 amps . According to Home
Power under a C1 load that bat will be full at 11.5 v and empty at 10.5 (12
volt lead acid) . I have seen more that 11.5 with 100 amp load on most bats
and for course when you let off the load the voltage comes up . The resting
voltage to me dose not have that much meaning as it changes the longer the
bats sit . Lee has said a sitting bat is full at 13v and empty at 12v but I
don't remember how long they have to sit . How many amps (app) dose your
car draw when going 55? If these are new bats they will get even better
over the next 6 months . I have had more bats packs then I can remember but
each one has been a little different . I have to get to know each one . I
do this with the 100 amp load (50 amp for 12v 'ers) . You can see the
difference that temp makes with this also. Yesterday It was freazzzzzzing
here! I mean COLD ! I'm talking like lowww 60's .
Seeing as more musicians drive EV's that any other group of people wouldn't
the place to advertise EV's be in theses mags? (this is just a light hearted
remark please no flame throwing from Non-musicians) .
Steve Clunn (wearing a long sleeve shirt)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:17 PM
Subject: Little trip to Berkeley. Range calculation.
> The Aspire just got its first freeway trip of any distance. San Francisco
> to Berkeley. The 120v pack was down to 124.6. This is after 30.9 miles
of
> driving. I kept the speed to no more than 55mph. Mostly 45 due to
traffic
> and on the way back the Bay Bridge was jammed up. Temperature around 60
> with sun. That seems like good numbers. If I had been driving around the
> city with hops onto the freeway I would have had a lower battery voltage
for
> sure. These are 30 Delphi 8v batteries that charge on finish to around
> 132v. After a half hour of rest the voltage was back to 125.3. At this
> rate If you consider a 120v pack having a range from 128 fully charged.
108
> Dead and 118v being half full. It seems that I used about 1/8th of the
> pack. At the same rate that makes 240 miles range. Since that is
obviously
> wrong. How would I use voltage to figure range? Lawrence Rhodes....
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:48 AM
Subject: Water drag eats ahs
> I took off Sat morning for the SJEAA meeting at 9am. I take Highway
>
> 101 South and cruise at 55 mph which draws about 100ahs off my 132
> VDC US145 pack.
>
> It had rained the night before, but had stopped on this morning.
> There was still water on the road, and gusty winds try to toss my
> EV from side to side.
>
> On my trip, the joy of an EV shows when I can feel the road to the
> point of knowing when their is a slight down or up hill (something
> that is lost on an SUV that only shows its fuel consumption at the
> station).
>
> [Since Automakers are taking good ideas from EVs to add to their ICE
> hybrids, rather than 1.5 mpg increase, wouldn't it be better to
> add a digital mpg read-out in the dash cluster?]
>
> My 22.6 mile trip usually uses 2.1 ahrs per mile or about 48ahs. But
> today, my Cruising Control Emeter read -67.7 ahs down. This means I
> used 3 ahs per mile. Where did all the drag come from?
>
> Possibly a frontal wind, but I was tossed around so much from side
> winds and did not feel any frontal winds.
>
> When I drove through pools of standing water on the highway, that is
> where I felt not only the loss of traction (hydroplaning) but a slow
> down when passing through.
>
> Could it be that these tires are hanging on to the water and causing
> a drag (which uses more power)?
>
> Our Chapter had already secured permission to use the 120VAC outlets
> at our meeting place. So, I plugged into two of them. My two Zivan K2
> 120VAC chargers pushed 20 DC amps into my pack.
>
> But also obtained permission to plug into a 240VAC source, and feed
> it to my PFC-50. I dialed in 30 amps. This gave me an easy 50 amps
> into my pack. My pack should be recharged in about 1.5 hours. Since
> the meeting is usually 2 hours, that leaves plenty of fat for 'just
> incase' issues.
>
> Our meeting was lively and informative. Afterward, I checked the
> cords
> and they were cold (the charge was done). My Zivans had turned off,
> and the PFC-50 was doing a 4 amp finishing charge. My Emeter was now
> reading +18ahs (the pack was charged and was pushing extra ahs into
> the pack to equalize the cells).
>
> When disconnecting and coiling cords, the manager had told me
> the boss had come by and was confused why so may (3) cords
> were runing to a car. Totally EV native, she exclaimed that
> all of them were to save money.
>
> All this happened unbeknownest to me. The manager had smoothed
> her feathers and calmed her down. I thanked him and reminded
> hime that if the situation ever needed, that he should tell
> us, and we will unplug.
>
> But I also let know know 3 cords only means I am done quicker
> than 1 cord. It still is the same power and cost (~70ah
> x 150VDC ~ 10kw @ $.10 pkwh =) $1 .
>
> My trip home was the same route and speed as before but it was now
> raining (nice of the weather to hold off until the meeting was over).
>
> When I pulled in to home, I had the same mileage and higher than
> normal ah readings.
>
> Truly, it isn't so much pushing a head wind as added drag from the
> wet road.
>
> Hi Bruce an' All;
Yes! Seems like ANYTHING untoward adds to the amps. Rain, snow,
headwinds, and COLD. I notice when it's cold that the batteries take much
longer to charge, for the same trip. I don't have an Watt hour meter, do it
all by seat-of-the-pants feel.As well as a ampmeter on the charger. Usually,
when I get back to the car when it's been charging, in summer, amps are down
to about 4-5, @148 volts or so. Now, winter, if I'm below 10, doing
good.That's after a 26-30 mile run to work. cae charging off a 120 volt
outlet, maybe 8 hour charge, starting @ about 15 amps at plug in.No PFC
correction.
Another test and observation. I finally got hold of some Goodyear GLR
tires. The ones that are supposed to be low rolling resistance. Borrowed
then from Mark Hastings' Rabbit to see if there IS a differance. Had
somebody changed them, not telling me, I wouldn't have noticed the
differance. From the Nokean ones I have been running. Nokeans are Finish
tires, no, I mean made,in FINland, not yur last set<g>! Both sets of tires I
have run at 50-55 PSI, I would imagine most ANY tires would be low rolling
resistance? The Goodyears are noisier than the Nokeans, you feel EVERY bump,
run over a leaf, ya feel it! Same with both tires sets. Last summer I ran
them softer, 40 PSI or so, just for a smoother ride, but yu can notice it in
range. Oh it wasn't alot, but when I needed about 55 miles to get to work,
one day, by way of a car show, put the 50 psi back. I had one Nokean grow a
bubble, so it was "Lump lump lump" down the road. HMMM? the excessive TP
would help that. I took it back, see if it is gauranteed against that? That,
and slamming it into CT's World class potholes, with a zillion lbs TP at
speed. I KNOW it's beating the car to death. Tie rod ends, Ball joints don't
last like they used to, as a Diseasel Rabbit, before.Got a CV joint going,
too, I think?Not surprised, higher torque of motor against overloaded car?
Front tires last about half as long as rears, same when it was a Diesel. No
surprise. Tires last about as long as batteriy packs for me.20k or so.I
don't, can't, do smoke Shows, ether.Oh, an occasional wheelslip, under
flooring it, but tires pumped up to a zillion lbs DON'T squeal out, like
normal cars, anyhow, so save your amps. No crowd pleasing tire howl.
Bottom line here. Maybe Nokeans are the LRR tires we're looking for. I
don't have any scientific way to prove it. No Watt hour meter, just a glance
at a 50 buck ampmeter, reasonably accurate, and roads LITTERED with gas rigs
that get in the way of any meaningful test. Like the #$%^ SUV guy the other
nite. With his BLINDING bluish blaze headlites! Outta be a law! All but
risked his and EVerybody out there to PASS me, with a flurish, then poke
along JUST under my cruising speed, that I knew the amps from before.There
is a nice warm spot in Hell for them, as well as the guyz that pull out in
front of you THEN poke along, If they were in such a #$%^ hurry, GO! Get out
of the way of the flowing traffic, like the ones that run to the top of the
"on'" ramp and STOP, causing you, in launch mode,400 amps, to swerve around
them. And hope the folks already on will give you a brake. They usually
will, as they can see that you are TRYING! Anyhow.America awards effort, in
many endevoirs. Whyzit, when yur driving your EV, that the stop lites KNOW
it? You hit every $%^& one! Especially if yur late to work?
Just a few off topic observations YMMV
Seeya
Bob
>
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At 08:16 AM 12/15/2002 -0800, 1sclunn wrote:
I may have missed somthing . Do you now have the evercell (miss spelled ?)
in your bird> ?
Nope, but the YT's can't do my commute, and that is the only trip I take
that the Sparrow is good for. So I was figuring on selling of the YT's
ASAP since they aren't doing me any good.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: liquid heater tanks
> Ok, looks like I need to go all-metal. But where to find the
> tank--coffeepots, surplus stores, RV stores--so far the best I've found is
a
> one gallon paint can!
Gary, have a good welding tech (!) weld up an aluminum tank out of
irrigation pipe the appropriate size. Make sure he tests it for leaks before
you pay him!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
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At 08:41 PM 12/14/02, you wrote:
Bill, in case you haven't considered, they are only rated for 120 watts
per kg at 13.2kg, or ~264A.
SAFT rates them at 500 amps.
Also Joe Smalleys tests
indicate that more power is available,
Joe and Rich's data show a max power transfer at about 1000 amps.
I'm not sure how this would effect the cycle life. No doubt, it is
dependent on duration and the temperature of the battery an it's components.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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At 10:45 PM 12/14/02, you wrote:
On 14 Dec 2002 at 16:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You must gas off some water to bring the
> negative plate up to full charge.
This is an interesting evaluation of the situation, and the first time I've
heard that the positive and negative electrodes of a lead cell could
actually be at different "states of charge." I'd be interested in reading
Nawaz's comments on this, if he has time.
Other than charging time limitations, is there any reason that one couldn't
perform this overcharge at a lower current? That would slow down the
gassing and allow the recombination to keep up with it -- thus no venting.
It may be possible to do it at lower current, but that has not
been tested (on Optimas) to my knowledge. The current alters the voltage.
The voltage is likely to have some effect so that changing it will have
some effect.
Also, 30 seconds "on" and 30 seconds "off" type finish charging
showed promise in the NREL study. I would try that before I would try
reducing the current.
As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a lower
current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies the
percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and example
in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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I've had a lot of talks with electrochemists after I started having problems
with the Optimas in my Scirocco. In my case the NG3 algorithm was the cause.
Most recommended algorithms are designed as 'safe' methods of getting a
battery charged in the shortest time. The 2 amp for 1 hour after current has
tapered below 1 amp is a 'fast' equalise, but it does have it's problems. If
the batteries are hot then most of the equalise energy goes into further
heating. It also does not take into account the depth of discharge.
Equalising after driving just a couple of miles is excessive. Hawker
recognise this issue with their adaptive algorithm where time in CV and
equalise is based on DOD as estimated by time in CC.
That makes sense. SAFT sets the overcharge as a percent of the
DOD. Basically, you set the ahs of the overcharge as a percentage of the
ahrs of charge. Optima does not specify this, so they may not have done the
experiment. Having said that, using a percentage sounds like a reasonable
thing to do on an Optima. There may be more to it, however, that we are not
aware of.
It was interesting to
note that Johnson Controls' Optima experts suggested I use this algorithm to
help deal with my problem (Electrofit Zapi were very unhelpful in trying
this). They also agreed that staying in the constant voltage phase after the
current had tapered below 1 amp was an effective (possibly superior) equalise
method. Hawker recommend extended periods at elevated voltage (14.7vpb temp.
comp.) to help balance long strings.
If this worked on Optimas, they probably would have specified it
as it is easier to implement. I think they may have carefully picked the 2
amp number. As I said in a previous post, you might consider the 30 second
50% duty cycle 2 amp finish charge like they tried at NREL. This seemed to
work.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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In the Cincinati, OH area? Depends where the rust is right? Lawrence
Rhodes.....
AUTOMOTIVE
1963 VW BEETLE lots of rust, high miles, no engine $200 this a custom
classic must-see (513)681-4217
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Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> [Since Automakers are taking good ideas from EVs to add to their ICE
> hybrids, rather than 1.5 mpg increase, wouldn't it be better to
> add a digital mpg read-out in the dash cluster?]
I think it's been proven that such a thing would decrease
fuel consumption. Perhaps that's why.... There used to be several
companies that made aftermarket mileage computers, you could get them
at any general auto parts store, and JCWhitney had a variety of models
to choose from. There was a point (I think early 90's), where they
vanished from all of these sources at exactly the same time, and
haven't been available (that I know of) from anyplace since. The
reason that I noticed is that I was in the market for one when they
vanished, ....and still am. I have an interesting unit from England
that was trusty and accurate for years, but then it started loosing
it's calibration when I would hit a bump, it got worse until it quit
working altogether. It's in my project pile of things to fix, however
there was nothing obviously wrong like a cracked trace or anything.
A quick search on the net just now turned up this humorous statement
about a mileage computer that is in a Cadillac:
> There is also a trip memory showing high speed and distance
> travelled for each day, and a depressing gas mileage computer, in a
> center-mounted console.
Perhaps the aftermarket computers were infringing on patents
that the automakers decided to enforce, since the time of their
disappearance roughly coincides with the time that they came into
use on some luxury cars. Or, more likely, the market for them dried
up as people ditched their economy cars and purchased SUVs.
...JB
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I have decided to sell my "81 Rabbit Pickup EV. I have $12,
000 into this EV with receipts for $10, 000 of it. I don't have the
receipts for the motor (used - private party purchase) or controller
(misplaced it). Unlike most EVs for sale - this one has *good*
batteries, 20 Dyno GC2b 6v golf cart batteries (600 miles on the
pack).
The Pickup is very rust free, though its a common problem for
this vehicle (straitness and no rust was a large part of why I bought
it). It was stripped when painted, so there is no paint on the trim
or window rubber (front and rear rubber are new). It was painted '81
VW Alpine white, inside and out (convertible color, stock was
cashmere white). The interior is a dark blue - the dash and
instrument panel are in excellent shape, no cracks, the odometer and
analog clock work. I have a set of new reproduction seat covers, the
bottoms need to be installed but the original back rests are in good
shape. I have a carpet kit for it too. I will also include the
original 13 inch aluminum wheels and any other spare Rabbit parts I
have in my garage (including a spare transaxle with shorter gearing).
This pickup sports a new GTI kit, 4 wheel flares, front air
dam and hardware (over $200 from my local VW dealer). A new
windshield, new grill and headlight surrounds, new bumper end caps,
and brand new taillights. It also comes with 15" Konig wheels and
directional rain tyres. You can see pictures of this Pickup right
after it came back from paint on the EV album at
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html> (I took take the time to
reinstall the steering wheel and the wheels and tyres before taking
pictures).
Pickup only has 161k miles on it. The "glow plug" light is
used to show precharge, oil pressure light shows motor overtemp, the
alternator light shows if the 12v system voltage drops under 12.1v (a
modified mark 1 Rudman reg operates an NC relay to drive this). An
E-meter is installed to keep track of the battery pack. The charger
is offboard, and included, its a duel voltage (120vac or 240vac
input) Lester ferroresonant charger. The motor is a Prestolite
MTC-4002, the controller a DCP Raptor 450, and the DC>DC converter is
a Todd PC 25 LV. Heat is provided by 2 ceramic heaters, for about
3000 watts (switchable for 0, 1500, or 3000 watts with the stock
temp lever).
Of course, everyone wants to know *why* a vehicle is being
sold. In my case its because I don't need the range. I've only once
taken the batteries below to 50% SOC. Also, I have a new, top secret,
EV project I want to undertake. Its an EV especially for my wife -
and show (and to my knowledge this project vehicle has never been
made into an EV before).
I'm asking $7000 for this unique VW Pickup. I have at least
$12,000 into it so you will get your moneys worth. There are to many
new parts to list, if you are interested feel free to contact me
offlist with questions or for a phone number to call me. John Wayland
and Geoff Shepherd can also tell you about its construction (I think
they are the only other list members to have seen it firsthand). This
is NOT a rolling science project.
Paul "neon" Gooch
in Everett WA
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Steve wrote a good summary. There's little I can add.
Steve Clunn wrote:
> Here is how I figure things (saw this years ago in Home Power).
> First I pick a load which is close to a C1 (what I think would draw
> the bat down in 1 hour). For my golf cart bats that's 100 amps.
> According to Home Power under a C1 load that bat will be full at
> 11.5v and empty at 10.5v (12 volt lead acid).
Good description!
> The resting voltage to me does not have that much meaning as it
> changes the longer the bats sit. Lee has said a sitting bat is full
> at 13v and empty at 12v but I don't remember how long they have to
> sit.
Those are good numbers for sealed lead-acid batteries, whose resting
voltages are a bit higher. Floodeds have the same low end, but will only
be around 12.7v fully charged.
> How many amps (app) does your car draw when going 55? If these are
> new bats they will get even better over the next 6 months.
Yep!
> I have had more bats packs then I can remember but each one has been
> a little different. I have to get to know each one. I do this with
> the 100 amp load (50 amp for 12v 'ers).
The "standard" load is 75 amps for 6v batteries, and 25 amps for 12v
batteries. If you use these loads, you can compare your data to
published data.
> You can see the difference that temp makes with this also. Yesterday
> It was freazzzzzzing here! I mean COLD! I'm talking like lowww 60's.
(ignore the snickering from the Minnesotan)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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John Bryan wrote:
> I think it's been proven that such a thing would decrease fuel
> consumption.
That's for sure! Any car with an mpg computer has always gotten better
gas mileage. It encourages drivers to drive more economically.
> There used to be several
> companies that made aftermarket mileage computers, you could get them
> at any general auto parts store, and JCWhitney had a variety of models
> to choose from. There was a point (I think early 90's), where they
> vanished from all of these sources at exactly the same time, and
> haven't been available (that I know of) from anyplace since...
>
> Perhaps the aftermarket computers were infringing on patents
> that the automakers decided to enforce, since the time of their
> disappearance roughly coincides with the time that they came into
> use on some luxury cars. Or, more likely, the market for them dried
> up as people ditched their economy cars and purchased SUVs.
Certainly there were no patents to stop them. MPG computers have been
being used in cars for many, many years, and the basic patents have all
expired and are in the public domain.
The oldest method is the vacuum gauge. Intake pressure (vacuum) is a
relative indicator of airflow, and if you assume a constant fuel-air
ratio (a weak assumption with a mechanical carburetor), then you can
calibrate it in mpg. It really only gives you a relative indication of
mpg.
Later, mpg computers inserted a fuel flowmeter in the gas line, and
picked up the distance travelled via the odometer cable. The earliest
mpg "computers" were mechanical, like old speedometers. Electrical
analog computers soon replaced them, as they were cheaper and worked
better. When digital electronics, and then microcomputers became
available, mpg computers used them, for still better accuracy.
I suspect that aftermarket mpg computers disappeared as cars became much
more difficult to work on. You couldn't get at the fuel line, it used
special fittings you couldn't get, high pressures with the pump in the
gas tank made leaks more serious, or there were pressure return lines
from the injectors to the tank that made simple fuel flow measurements
impossible. Likewise, the speedometer cables became inaccessible, or
needed special fittings to tap into them, or the car had an electronic
speedometer so there was no mechanical cable. Old cars could put magnets
on the drive shaft, but that option was lost with front wheel drive
setups.
At the same time, it became *easier* for the car companies to add mpg
computers if they so desired. Once you have a fuel injected engine and
electronic speedometer, the emission control computer can easily
calculate mpg. But just because it only cost the auto company $5 to add
it doesn't mean they won't charge $500 for the option. :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> As for the SAFT NiCads, it appears that you could use a lower
> current for the finish charge. The technical manual only specifies the
> percentage of overcharge, not the time and current. They give and example
> in another document, however, showing 5 amps.
The SAFT Technical Manual, section 5.2.4, Recommended Charging Method,
specifies two constant current phases, the first phase (bulk) being 0.2C
(C/5) and the second phase (overcharge) being 0.05C (C/20).
The methods described in the "Description of Charge Mode for Low Maintenance
STM Modules" documents, for both the STM 5-100 and STM 5-140 modules, follow
the Recommended Method but have more detail. The values shown in the Charge
Parameters tables in back of the documents match the C/5 and C/20 rates from
the Technical Manual.
Ralph
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